I'm putting this in the post-op forum since it seemed the most appropriate area. I wasn't here long. But it did not take long to reach a conclusion that holding opinions contrary to the collective was not welcomed. So in that respect, I guess that they win...they can march lockstep into oblivion if they so choose.
I've mentioned the concerns with a couple of people here via PM that it was becoming abundantly clear that this was not the place for me. I'm tired of the flack I have taken in a couple of threads in particular (one of which was the prison thread in which I was told that I was 'part of the problem' precisely because I have worked in and around prisons and then others appear to intimate that what I saw firsthand and hear from my current clients simply is not reality).
I also don't need the headaches that come from trying to persuade people that the 'transgender' term does not apply to me and that it never has. I don't need 19 and 20 year olds telling me what gender is or isn't. After all, I was taking steps to try and address my medical condition before they were even born. To go a step further, I had already gotten on with life post-operatively when some of them were literally just learning to walk.
There were other incidents that very quickly made me realize that simply getting on with life all those years ago was the wise thing to have done and that I really have not missed anything across the past fifteen or so years.
With that quick departure address, I bid the rest of y'all adieu and a fond farewell.
Don't let them chase you off. Your opinions are valid and deserve just as much attention as any others.
I agree. I also have gotten much flack for stating opinions contrary to the collective and contrary to what the moderators believe. As if what the moderators have any more validity than what I say.
Best of luck to you Ann
Quote from: Sarah Louise on May 12, 2011, 10:29:49 AM
Don't let them chase you off. Your opinions are valid and deserve just as much attention as any others.
in this case, i think it's me who should be told that... i'm only gonna tell her she's right, because why would you join a website such as this if you're so convinced you aren't one of us?
Never once did I see anyone on this site say to someone else..."you are.."
I never seen anyone insist that someone change their self designator.
Yes there are diferances of opinion here. That is human nature.
Sorry that your opinion is no longer important enough to share with us.
Have a good day.
Good Luck Ann.
I must admit that coming here as a longterm postop probably is a bit of a vocation. It's not for everyone. A few of us feel called to do it because we know that we owe a debt of gratitude to others who have helped us in the past. However I would be the last to suggest that everyone should do so.
Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 12, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
why would you join a website such as this if you're so convinced you aren't one of us?
I can answer that easily. We come because we want to share our slightly different perspective and engage in a healthy debate.
Sites where everyone thinks the same or belongs to the same narrow grouping are boring and somewhat unhelpful. Susans never has been, and never will be such a place. The whole TOS are designed to actively encourage ANYONE who wants to engage constructively to come here and join the conversation. There never has been, and there never will be a requirement to be "one of us" as you put it.
Ann, I have never seen you go out of your way to do anything that is harmful. In fact while you might struck some as abrasive, I have enjoyed your posts.
Many of the post-op girls just quit posting. They are still registered but just don't post any more. I will support you in whatever you decide.
I am not one of anything im treated as woman and i am ialso am just one of those with a trans past
i certainly hold no judgements against anyone i try help with all i really have which is kind words and advice as ive already been down that road
i am only here to help like alot of us
susans has changed though alot of personal or thinly veiled attacks go if stops me posting in many threads
you all need to learn how to get along the outside world is tough enough
Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 12, 2011, 11:06:37 AM
Ann, I have never seen you go out of your way to do anything that is harmful. In fact while you might struck some as abrasive, I have enjoyed your posts.
Many of the post-op girls just quit posting. They are still registered but just don't post any more. I will support you in whatever you decide.
Then how can you say this place is 6600 (or whatever) strong when you well know people quit coming here all the time?
Everyone's opinion is equally valid, but that also needs to be tempered with respect for the fact that theirs isn't the only one, or the only correct one.
Discussion is healthy, but I think sometimes it would be helpful to know when to agree to disagree, rather than wanting the last word and letting things become a dogged battle of wills, each trying to convince the other... because, inevitably, this winds up being a classic case of the irresistable force meeting the immovable object.
Maybe take a few deep breaths and remember that no one here can possibly know you in sufficient detail to tell you who to be and what to think. You don't need to pursuade people of anything. If something doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply to you. So you say that and that's an end of it. That doesn't mean it has no relevance for anyone, nor does it mean that other people think it does apply to you. I suspect folks have enough to worry about in their own lives and making sense of themselves to presume how someone they don't know, or are ever likely to know, sees themself or lives their life. I think a lot of issues here stem from people taking things far more personally than were ever intended, or thinking things are directed at them specifically, when actually they aren't.
It would be a shame to see anyone leave over something which could easily be resolved with a little tolerance and understanding from all. I hope you reconsider. When all's said and done, regardless of differences, everyone is human and deserves the same courtesies.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 11:24:17 AM
Gee, I found this terribly offensive and arrogant. First of all, who are you referring to as one of us?. There is no collective us, as far as I'm concerned. And if you believe there is an us, add me to the list of not being part of it.
Also, this is the post-operative section. Why are you posting here when you are not a post-operative transsexual person? I am not saying that as an insult, but as a question. You are in a space you dont identify with. You are the one who is not one of us (post-operative people). Again, this is not an insult or attack, but a statement of the situation.
I'll answer your question for myself. I am on this site for the Post-op section in particular as there are other people like me going through tremendous changes or have done so, and the transsexual forum as well because I have shared history with folks going through the same journey.
I am also here to help those in distress. To help folks as much as I am able to.
This forum is for transsexual people and people of transsexual history. It is very wrong of you tell people they dont belong here and mean spirited.
If your goal and other gender variant folks is to get transsexual people to depart this site, then you are do doing a great job of it. Why do we need this, as Ann so clearly says in her post.
-Valerie
Edit: I am adding that Ann is one of us (post-operative folk), while you are not (post-operative folk).
it is also wrong and mean spirited for the way she treated me. she even referenced me by being "19 and trying to tell her what gender is." next she's making a superiority comment about "i had srs before she was even born." this isn't the place for that. even i know that, and i don't need to be misjudged
again. i put some of my own thoughts into one thead, and i guess she thinks i'm not entitled to. well, whatever. you don't even know what happened... if she wants to leave, that's the only answer i can give her.
Ann,
I enjoy your posts a great deal and learn a lot from them. In any group, there will be those who don't see it your way and want to disregard experience and success. Those who are successful sometimes have to disregard improper or inappropriate comments.
I do hope you reconsider and stick around. Your contributions have been very valuable to me and I'm certain to a lot of others. We will lose a lot if you leave.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 12:20:27 PM
At some point this place will likely end up like Lauras Playground where no one contributes in the post-operative forum. It will be dead, like there as we don't need the headaches shown here.
Can't disagree with that, even though I've never been to Laura's Playground.
Now, if you all can't get along, I'm shutting off the Internet and you'll all have to go outside! ;D
Take some time to unwind Ann. Pleased your mebership is still current. Just leave it till you feel a bit better.
I've found, the best thing to do, when my opinions are not entirely welcome, is to move to another thread. And I have more opinions than most.
Hi Ann
I would like to say thank you for the contributions you have made to Susan's. You have so much to contribute and it would be a shame to lose that knowledge.
You have a right to your opinions and others need to learn to accept that those opinions are yours and if they are not the same as others, then the others have to learn to 'agree to disagree'.
Look after yourself and I wish you all the best in for the future.
Warmest regards
Sarah B
PS Please stay, I would like to know more of what you have to offer.
I mat not have been here long, but Ann, you have been a great help to me in such a limited time! Please don't go, you helped me so much in a time of need. I hope your reconsider coming back here; I for one will really miss you if you decide not to. I might be young, but I really value your opinion for many different reasons- not only as a postop, but years of experience, and how to deal with life's difficulties. Even if you don't get to read this, thanks for all your help. That someone takes even a smidgen of interest in my day-to-day happenings means the world to me.
~Jessica
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 01:13:39 PM
I've said my piece. I apologize for contributing to the controversy, which is embarrassing at my elderly age of 53.
Holy cow Val you're 53? I would have never guessed, you look great!
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 12, 2011, 11:24:17 AM
Gee, I found this terribly offensive and arrogant. First of all, who are you referring to as one of us?. There is no collective us, as far as I'm concerned. And if you believe there is an us, add me to the list of not being part of it.
Also, this is the post-operative section. Why are you posting here when you are not a post-operative transsexual person? I am not saying that as an insult, but as a question. You are in a space you dont identify with. You are the one who is not one of us (post-operative people). Again, this is not an insult or attack, but a statement of the situation.
I'll answer your question for myself. I am on this site for the Post-op section in particular as there are other people like me going through tremendous changes or have done so, and the transsexual forum as well because I have shared history with folks going through the same journey.
I am also here to help those in distress. To help folks as much as I am able to.
This forum is for transsexual people and people of transsexual history. It is very wrong of you tell people they dont belong here and mean spirited.
If your goal and other gender variant folks is to get transsexual people to depart this site, then you are do doing a great job of it. Why do we need this, as Ann so clearly says in her post.
-Valerie
Edit: I am adding that Ann is one of us (post-operative folk), while you are not (post-operative folk).
Valerie I always respect you for having the courage to say things that need to be said, and saying them in a far nicer manner than I probably ever could lol
I agreed with many of Ann's posts, and for one was happy to see another person who understood what it really means to be a binary minded woman post-transition, no longer "trans" anything. Ann I wish you well, no matter what you decide to do.
hugs,
Chloe
Quote from: FairyGirl on May 13, 2011, 05:25:08 AM
Valerie I always respect you for having the courage to say things that need to be said, and saying them in a far nicer manner than I probably ever could lol
hugs,
Chloe
Val is the type of girl I could and would be friends with. Not because she is trans but because she has a gentle soul and a positive outlook on life.
QuoteI agreed with many of Ann's posts, and for one was happy to see another person who understood what it really means to be a binary minded woman post-transition, no longer "trans" anything. Ann I wish you well, no matter what you decide to do.
I'm in the crowd that once you correct it you just are, transsexual is more of a term of transition. So you have 3 in the crowd
Quote from: FairyGirl on May 13, 2011, 05:25:08 AM
Valerie I always respect you for having the courage to say things that need to be said, and saying them in a far nicer manner than I probably ever could lol
I agreed with many of Ann's posts, and for one was happy to see another person who understood what it really means to be a binary minded woman post-transition, no longer "trans" anything. Ann I wish you well, no matter what you decide to do.
This ^
oh my, what was said?
Quote from: missyzanta on May 20, 2011, 08:05:20 AM
oh my, what was said?
Not sure... But Val is 53. God I hate it when every one is younger than me :)
it really doesn't matter anymore. just drama. drama, drama, drama.
Im not post op..but this post is not post op related, really. Everyone has their own opinion, and if you didnt learn that through your transition, then i feel sorry for you. Not an insult or an attack. Just stating the facts of the statement.
I'm not post op either, and sadly may never be able to be, but I just want to say that I deeply appreciate the posts of our post op girls since they are not only quite informative, but also provide encouragement and hope to people like me.
Quote from: Valeriedances on May 21, 2011, 10:10:54 AM
To say it is not a binary world is silly, just step outside. That said, some of us would like to be able to have a place here since the site does include transsexual people and speak our point of view without being attacked for it.
Well I am on record as saying that since forever ago I don't really identify as trans anything. I coined the phrase post-corrected Cis, to describe the fact that I am binary, I did once require an adjustment to make everything right, but now as all the ducks are in a line, and I was lucky enough to skip most of the typical trans narrative, I consider that I am closer to cis gender than anything else.
The thing is, from my perspective one can speak one's point of view as long as it is done in a way which acknowledges the equal validity of everyone else. The only time I have seen people getting attacked is when they have phrased their views in such a way that it appears to others that they are claiming to be more valid than anyone else.
In theory the various communities on this board are supposed to cater for the various differing views. The problem is that very often people do not agree about where the boundaries lie, and indeed often they get upset if other people wrongly categorise them. For example I am not too happy when someone refers to me as currently being transgender or even transsexual. Not because there is anything inherently wrong with either of those groups, but just because in the strictest sense I do not feel that these days, I truly belong within them even if I undoubtedly once may have done so.
And there again we have a potential problem, because I believe that it is possible to be on the borderlines of several different groups - and indeed to move though them as one moves though life. So at age xx I may have been one thing... by age yy I had migrated to something else. I do not subscribe to the thinking that says, for example, "once transsexual always transsexual." I believe that it is possible to move on... and so for example my membership of the transsexual group is as a "retired past member". Some people however take a different view. They believe that once one is transsexual there is no exit. Now clearly such a person will want to refer to me by a label that I do not now accept.
The other problem is that the wide-ranging nature of discussions here means that it isn't unusual to have some topic that arises in one of the other sections into which one has interest or potentially useful insight. I think it would be a shame if I did not feel able to contribute a useful point to a discussion just because it was, say in the transgender section. After all I may not be transgender now, but some would argue that I probably was about 30 years ago. In such cases I usually try to participate but if relevant also making it clear why my perspective may be slightly different.
So from a personal POV I do not think the solution is well served by erecting rigid walls between the groups, but rather by allowing that we do have different points of view and bashing each other over the head with them is probably not what any of us should be here for.
Having contemplated some comments over the past two weeks, I did take some solace in the fact that I was not alone in my viewpoints. There also exist some other events pending in my State where I have already seen misconceptions about what is in the media and I know it will only get worse when the decision in Wharton is handed down. Consequently, I elected to reactivate the account.
As I told a few people I PM'ed about the return, I cannot and will not make any promises that some will find me less abrasive. I am NOT going to embrace the terminology that some seem dead set on foisting upon others. Perhaps the other article about the use of that objectionable term by GLAAD will allow some to realize I am not truly alone in my 20-year opposition to that term as well as Nikki's blog entry last month. I fought against the term in the early 90's and I will continue to object to it, at least as it relates to someone seeking to apply it to MY medical condition.
If some want to harbor a feeling that my posts smack of a elitism, so be it. I can't change that. Not everyone believes in the blurring of lines. Some of us ARE old school and subscribe to binary concepts.
As soon as I see that this post has appeared, I will take steps to lock the thread because I do not believe we gain anything further from discussions on the matter. It will have come full circle, with what began as a sayonara piece having become a resurrection of sorts. In furtherance of that intent, I would ask that people not post further to this thread pending the lock...