First and foremost, I do not want this becoming a hate thread. For those of you raised with the faith, do you think you would believe had you not been indoctrinated? For those of you who have turned to the faith, what brougth you to it? I'm specifically asking this about Christianity because I was raised Catholic. I tried to look at my faith from the perspective of someone looking at Greek mythology, because they really did believe in their gods were real, but clearly to you and I they are not.
So what leads you to choose this religion above all the others?
Please no smart-ass comments from non-believers, this is a serious question.
I was raised with nothing, we "might" go to church once a year on Easter (to make my grandmother happy). I didn't believe in anything when I was young, I was happy to think this was it and death (so longed for at the time) was final and absolute.
I "tried" the Catholic church for my wife (she was raised Catholic, mostly in name only, and wanted to get married in the church.
I could not accept some of the things in the Catholic church so stopped going again for several years.
When I was 30 a friend at work started sharing with me about Christianity, I played along for the fun of it. He gave me a book by Hal Lindsey, There's a New World Coming. It was one night when I was working alone that I accepted Christ. I will not bore people with the details.
I continue to trust Christ with my life and salvation, for now and thru eternity.
I came from a family that was predominately heathen.
The Lord came into my life one day and made himself very real.
As Sarah said I won't go into details either.
That faith has grown to where Christ means more to me than anything.
It did not come in any given church. I received it while at home.
Despite the behavior of most "Christians," I came to follow Jesus because he always accepted people for who they are. A truly important book for my spiritual development was How to Be a Christian Without Being Religious by Fritz Ridenour. I always followed the belief that grace and forgiveness are all that matter. So I never felt condemned by god for being trans.
I believe that I am a goddess. And I am here to serve.
It is important to believe in yourself because that is all you have, whether you're a pauper or royalty.
I suppose in a way I've accepted Christ in my life not so much as a savior but as a tour guide, reaL or not. The bible does have some good instructions and I do the book a lot of props for developing my morality. I've been given countless opportunities to have him speak to me but I've never come away satisfied that there was really someone there. Is it accurate to say your belief gives you a sense of fulfullment?
I'll admit I have moments of doubt. This has been a difficult life and my transition has brought a lot of pain. I do have a general idea of the bible as "divinity for dummies." God's word explained in terms that people could understand. Simplistic. I also am not much of a believer in organized religion.
As for whether I would be a believer now if I had not been raised as a Christian, that is impossible to say. I can say though that my life feels like it has been guided. That at times I have been protected and that one special night, when I was feeling very low, I feel that God spoke to me. I actually heard a voice. Twice in fact. It told me that I was on the right path and to not be afraid. So, take that for what you will, but in my moments of doubt, I think about that night and remember that something really did happen to me. Something that I, a rational, highly educated person, cannot explain.
I was brought up as roman catholic in a christian brothers college. I always had problems. Now we are talking 40 plus years ago when I was at junior and high school :embarrassed:
But I couldn't understand the belief system. I was very unsure of this concept of Faith. I would ask questions in Bible and religious study classes and get no answer. OK they were naive questions, but? Why was the devil cast out from Heaven? It interested me and it may have been provocative, although as the child I was it was not meant to be. I remember being called stupid and strapped (corporal punishment). When we got to the bit about the crucifixion I was upset, why were the criminals crucified? Should we help people in prison because god (I had problems distinguishing God and Jesus) saved them. Another strapping.
My Dad was a wonderful man. A true Christian in every sense of the word. A charitable and noble person who loved humanity and tried at any opportunity to help people. He was a marvellous father figure, I just wasn't a boy. He doted on my sisters and was a loving father to them, but they got a different love to me. I was his son, I failed.
A confused, nervous terrified Cindy was found by her parents at 13 yrs old wearing by older sisters clothes, (who knew BTW). I could see the disappointment run through his face. I explained in my confused way that I was a girl. 'You have committed a sin, you need to go to confession tomorrow' I gave up religion on the spot, I never went to confession. I've never quite understood but it was a defining moment. When I was raped it was also a defining moment. Both times I really needed to believe in something to help me out of these incredible events. The only person who was available was I.
Hope this fits into the thread, Maddie if it doesn't tell me and I will delete.
Cindy
Cindy,
I don't want to cause a thread drift but your story touched me. Mainly the part about being alone when raped.
To start I wish to say I am sorry about what all has happened to you.
It does not mean you were alone just because you felt alone. The scriptures show us that bad things happened to many people whom the Lord loved. The list of those who were beaten and stoned and such. All whom died believing that this world was not worthy of the glory of the one to come.
I guess if we had a easy life with no pains or bad times it would be easy to believe in Jesus. That doesn't prove a faith or love for him. When people can accept him regardless that is an unconditional love that is rewarded with an eternity of life free of pain, worry and fear. According to scripture we won't even remember this world or anything sinful about it.
I do hope that you will reconsider. Just because people don't use scripture right and the Lord allows some bad to happen it doesn't mean that he doesn't love you. It just may be that the events in your life could manifest an unfeigned love if you reconsider and love him anyway. The kind of love that so many can never have towards him because of their willingness to only love those whom treat them good or tell them what they want to hear.
Take care young lady.
So one's faith could be used as a way to give a sense of purpose to suffering. I have to admit it is a comforting notion to believe there is someone greater watching out for you and despite non intervention, your faith will make it better after this life is over. When danger is averted we say someone was watching out for us. And when it wasn't, well you weren't alone but your companion sat idle and let it all happen. I'm sorry if I sound cynical but it's the first thing that I thought of when I read that is that a companion is supposed to watch your back. So I guess what I'd like to know is how,to those who believe, this could be a good thing.
Maddie,
It is hard to grasp the differences in concept of watching your companion's back. In the natural we try to help and alleviate pain and such.
Many times those whom we help are ungrateful and later turn on us.
According to the scriptures the Lord's ways are not our way and his thoughts not our thoughts. It even says the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.
Anyone can love the Lord or believe if Jesus was some great mystical guru that granted every whim and lust and made sure no evil ever happened to his people. But that wouldn't mean they love him unconditionally. Chances are they would turn on him once in heaven as Satan did.
The word of God even says the suffering of this world are not to be compared unto the glory to be revealed. No pain and no suffering and every memory and every tear shall be wiped away.
The prophets of old are listed as having pretty much as having gone through hell on earth. Abraham's journey is full of heartache and suffering as with Job. David's own child turned on him and Jeremiah was in prison for speaking the word of God. Many that have been loved of the Lord have suffered. It just isn't mentioned much because the heretics that are on television and behind the big ministries know it won't fill auditoriums and their wallets.
Joyce Meyer would not have gotten so rich if she came out on stage and said that a Christian might not ever get rich or have nice clothing but should be content having food and raiment and eternal life. I'll just use her as one example.
For a person to make it to heaven both parties will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they love him.
I find myself not wanting to worship a god who would give us instincts contrary to what we are meant to do. To tell me to do something the reason for doing I could never understand. That sounds rather cruel. It's a given that God's ways are not our own according to the Bible but it seems like telling a dog he can come in out of the rain if he walks on his hind legs. Sure walking on all fours would be what comes natural but he only get to come in by walking on his hind legs, probably a painful proposition after a while, as well as love his master for making him do it. At least to me that's how it seems. It's like we speak different languages then, we and God. But God wants to love us but expects us but doesn't give us the capacity to really understand what he's saying. It also doesn't seem like he's making any effort to learn ours. For we do have to love him to get to heaven for it is His will or His wrath. I'm just not sure if that's something I want to be a part of.
Maddie,
That is where faith comes in. It is also where the Spirit of God comes in. That too is something not taught right as it is the Spirit of God that causes the thoughts and words of the Lord to make sense.
Sort of what I said about the ways and thoughts of God seeming foolish to man.
Hope this helps kiddo.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on May 24, 2011, 11:25:06 PM
I find myself not wanting to worship a god who would give us instincts contrary to what we are meant to do. To tell me to do something the reason for doing I could never understand. That sounds rather cruel. It's a given that God's ways are not our own according to the Bible but it seems like telling a dog he can come in out of the rain if he walks on his hind legs. Sure walking on all fours would be what comes natural but he only get to come in by walking on his hind legs, probably a painful proposition after a while, as well as love his master for making him do it. At least to me that's how it seems. It's like we speak different languages then, we and God. But God wants to love us but expects us but doesn't give us the capacity to really understand what he's saying. It also doesn't seem like he's making any effort to learn ours. For we do have to love him to get to heaven for it is His will or His wrath. I'm just not sure if that's something I want to be a part of.
If you think about it life here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of our spiritual existence and well Yahshua says not to worry for all things here on earth because this time is short and if we keep the faith we will live forever above or we will suffer in a purgetory type place for a while until all spirits are brought back but that is suppose to be 10,000 yrs and well i would rather not get what i wanted now than to not get what God has for me above.
In my case i did get some relief from life and the nasty male sex drive i suffered with and so transitioning happened fast for ma and in 9 months from start i was post op. However i then had to suffer what any woman suffered. I now had men letching after me and i hated how i was previous a letch and now i had other men doing the same to me. ironic huh..
Now i live dressing as a FTM and take care of my 88 yr old mother 24/7/365 and work hard for our little farm house with no plumbing and a wood stove to stay warm that has to be filled many times every night and when she passes i will give it away as God wants me to do because for me its not about what i want except for a little relief from hell on earth at times.. but if i go after the now i will suffer a life in limbo for yrs i rather not..
This is my life if it speaks to you then so be it..
I was taught or rather I was indoctrinated into the faith. A critical examination made me realize that yes it does seem rather foolish and contradictory. I've never had any heavy religious experience, I've never heard a voice from the heavens or seen the angels. You'd think after eighteen years there would have been at least one. I'm not asking for a reason to convert, I'm just asking what makes you believe. If you had some sort of experience that's great. If it's so you cam live your life as a better person, that's fine also. As for myself, I find that I wish to do good categorically, that is for it's own sake. Were I to have some alterior motive for my actions such as eternal life then I would think it to be cheapened in a way. If there is a god, and that god is just, I ought to have eternal life based on the merits of my life. And if there is no god, then I will be gone but will live on in those who remember me. Yes I stole that from Marcus Aurelius but it really spoke to me.
I find a lack of belief to be the essence of free will. I do not have the constant threat of wrath driving my decisions. I hardly call that free at all. But when you shed that and keep a moral path anyway, to do no harm to your fellow man, to keep a tolerant heart and not judge others for their decisions, that is a good life. I do think some of my morality came from being taught the bible but now my actions are my own.
Maddie,
I think that the judgment seat of Christ will be very interesting as well as joyful and fearful. I believe from the scriptures that many that thought they were saved won't be and many that the mainstream thought was going to hell will be saved.
It was the ones that prophesied and did works in Jesus' parable that were told to depart and the ones that said when did we visit you and such that were told to enter in.
Paul also wrote that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves. So, maybe what you say about your moral convictions and being taught the Bible are true.
It is faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God that matters.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. If we hope for eternal life and see Jesus as the Son and express image of God who died for our sins we shall be saved.
The thing about seeing evidence is that having evidence to see is not faith but seeing evidence after believing is still having faith and God honoring it. Everything I have seen was after I believed. Hopefully even though you do not claim to believe the merits of your life are what is called the fruit of the Spirit and comes forth from a true heart.
I don't believe to escape wrath. I believe because the goodness of God (Holy Ghost) led me to believe by opening my eyes. Once I beheld the Lord in the scriptures and knew he was real I repented as led by the Spirit and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I didn't believe to escape wrath but because I loved the Lord as soon as I saw he is real and still do to this day.
The entire work of God in my life was led of the Spirit.
It leaves no room for anyone to boast.
I hope this answers the original question young lady.
Take care.
Quote from: Del on May 25, 2011, 02:01:32 PM
Maddie,
I think that the judgment seat of Christ will be very interesting as well as joyful and fearful. I believe from the scriptures that many that thought they were saved won't be and many that the mainstream thought was going to hell will be saved.
It was the ones that prophesied and did works in Jesus' parable that were told to depart and the ones that said when did we visit you and such that were told to enter in.
Paul also wrote that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves. So, maybe what you say about your moral convictions and being taught the Bible are true.
It is faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God that matters.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. If we hope for eternal life and see Jesus as the Son and express image of God who died for our sins we shall be saved.
The thing about seeing evidence is that having evidence to see is not faith but seeing evidence after believing is still having faith and God honoring it. Everything I have seen was after I believed. Hopefully even though you do not claim to believe the merits of your life are what is called the fruit of the Spirit and comes forth from a true heart.
I don't believe to escape wrath. I believe because the goodness of God (Holy Ghost) led me to believe by opening my eyes. Once I beheld the Lord in the scriptures and knew he was real I repented as led by the Spirit and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
I didn't believe to escape wrath but because I loved the Lord as soon as I saw he is real and still do to this day.
The entire work of God in my life was led of the Spirit.
It leaves no room for anyone to boast.
I hope this answers the original question young lady.
Take care.
Del,
I agree with you so much. I keep having that one time when Jesus was talking about those who where doing good things in His name. There are 2 things that are often missed about that. The first is that Jesus did not reprimand them for
what they did. He sent them away for a different reason as He is quoted as saying
"Depart from me for I Never Knew You" Which for me begs the question if it is not in the doing of the good works then is it not in coming to know Him. It seems to me that what they were doing was out of duty and not out of love.
If that is the case then what should the focus be? I believe that it is the one thing that is truly lacking in the organized church. Shouldn't the focus be in how do i get to know Jesus and how to become more like Him? Is this not where the "meat" is? It seems to me that as we get to know Him more and learn to love Him more that our desires will change that we want to be more like Him.
And isn't that where it becomes real , when He can take broken down and hurting people and make their lives into something new?
I do apologize off on a bit of a tangent.
I was blessed in that i had a coworker who was the real deal. Jesus was so alive in her life. She had a peace and joy that i had never seen before and i just longed to have that. Since then over and over i have seen lives changed (Even many that many would say were hopeless cases).
I have seen where He took this broken down shell of a human being and make something of me. I have no other explanation than that it was through Jesus alone.
Sarah said:
Which for me begs the question if it is not in the doing of the good works then is it not in coming to know Him. It seems to me that what they were doing was out of duty and not out of love.
If that is the case then what should the focus be? I believe that it is the one thing that is truly lacking in the organized church. Shouldn't the focus be in how do i get to know Jesus and how to become more like Him? Is this not where the "meat" is? It seems to me that as we get to know Him more and learn to love Him more that our desires will change that we want to be more like Him.
And isn't that where it becomes real , when He can take broken down and hurting people and make their lives into something new?
I agree with you . It is about knowing him and wanting to be more like him. Not just wanting forgiveness of sins out of fear or serving out of duty. The Lord even said when you have that which you have been commanded say We are unprofitable servants. We have done that which was our duty to do. But he also said cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Many claim to be a Christian but for the wrong reason and those he may never know.
I may be wrong but i do believe that there is one thing that is a major factor. I believe that it is in the love of God Himself that makes the difference. Which begs the question why does it make the difference? I believe it is in the motivation and also the major difference that love itself makes. Duty or reward or any other reason can not ever make someone WANT to be with that person. Loves desire wants to please the one i love and i desire to be with the one i love.
Quote from: SarahM777 on May 30, 2011, 09:58:53 PM
I may be wrong but i do believe that there is one thing that is a major factor. I believe that it is in the love of God Himself that makes the difference. Which begs the question why does it make the difference? I believe it is in the motivation and also the major difference that love itself makes. Duty or reward or any other reason can not ever make someone WANT to be with that person. Loves desire, wants to please the one i love and i desire to be with the one i love.
so true yet for some like myself we just take baby steps to this understanding. Learning not to do wrong was a first for me. Learning to help others was another and to give all for those in need. Worrying not for all things here on earth is another. Giving up the ego me, the self, that is that hardest thing to do. Yes i am willing but i get lost in my own past. one day i do dream of loving God as God loves me but until that day i am taking baby steps.
I have learned not to do wrong and have learned about giving stuff because stuff never makes one happy and we are to help our brothers/sisters in need. I have given up earthly desires such as relationships, but surrendering the ego me, the self, my thoughts and feelings towards things around me has been the hardest thing to do. I want to do this and let God have the whole me, but right now that is still the next step waiting for me ahead. When i do that i will know i truly love God.
M2MtF2FtM,
Many forget the Bible says We love him because he first loved us.
Everything about the gospel should come back to glorify Jesus. Since you are well on your way it is the Spirit of God that makes that change. In that manner no flesh can glory.
Jesus said Look out at the fields they are already white to harvest. The good Lord already knows who loves him and who doesn't. The reason for letting your light shine is to show that you are not ashamed of him or his word and because that is how the new ones are brought in. When a person shares the word of God the sheep know the shepherd's voice and follow. Most of today's visitations are just to bring people in so the pastor doesn't have to get a job and work for a living. But, if those people are already in a church where the good Lord wants them that is sheep stealing which is an abomination in the eyes of God. They in effect take away a person from a place where the Lord may want them and it may rob that babe in Christ of his salvation.
It is admirable that you are coming forward in due season.
Quote from: Del on May 31, 2011, 08:23:15 PM
M2MtF2FtM,
Many forget the Bible says We love him because he first loved us.
Everything about the gospel should come back to glorify Jesus. Since you are well on your way it is the Spirit of God that makes that change. In that manner no flesh can glory.
Jesus said Look out at the fields they are already white to harvest. The good Lord already knows who loves him and who doesn't. The reason for letting your light shine is to show that you are not ashamed of him or his word and because that is how the new ones are brought in. When a person shares the word of God the sheep know the shepherd's voice and follow. Most of today's visitations are just to bring people in so the pastor doesn't have to get a job and work for a living. But, if those people are already in a church where the good Lord wants them that is sheep stealing which is an abomination in the eyes of God. They in effect take away a person from a place where the Lord may want them and it may rob that babe in Christ of his salvation.
It is admirable that you are coming forward in due season.
Del i am confused about the stealing sheep from a church thing. How does that statement, come from my reply? Also i am far from admirable. I am so low that i am barely able to feel deserving to be anywhere near most who follow and love Yahshua.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on May 31, 2011, 06:25:11 AM
so true yet for some like myself we just take baby steps to this understanding. Learning not to do wrong was a first for me. Learning to help others was another and to give all for those in need. Worrying not for all things here on earth is another. Giving up the ego me, the self, that is that hardest thing to do. Yes i am willing but i get lost in my own past. one day i do dream of loving God as God loves me but until that day i am taking baby steps.
I have learned not to do wrong and have learned about giving stuff because stuff never makes one happy and we are to help our brothers/sisters in need. I have given up earthly desires such as relationships, but surrendering the ego me, the self, my thoughts and feelings towards things around me has been the hardest thing to do. I want to do this and let God have the whole me, but right now that is still the next step waiting for me ahead. When i do that i will know i truly love God.
Please by no means does any of this mean that somehow "I've made it or that i am so much further along than any one else" I too at times seem to still be crawling and at other times it seems like i have taken two steps forward and one backwards.
Let's face it what Jesus so often talked about goes against typical normal human behavior and thoughts. Forgive someone who is beating the heck out you? Right..... It is more normal to want to get the opportunity to extract revenge. Pick up your cross and follow Him. Right ......... Somehow it sounds like i have to die some where along the line. Etc etc etc.....
It's almost like He took everything we hold dear and how we usually think,feel and react and pulled it inside out and backwards. It goes against what we have been taught and how we think and feel.
If you think about it coming to the point of understanding that we are stewards of what we have and that we really do not own them is really freeing because the stuff no longer owns us
If you think about about it it doesn't really make sense that you can see so many people spend the entire week even to the point of working multiple jobs to get things that are not really needed. Only to come home and spend the entire weekend running to take care of all the things that is not really needed and in a couple of years these things end up on a shelf only to never be used again.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 01, 2011, 07:22:00 PM
Del i am confused about the stealing sheep from a church thing. How does that statement, come from my reply? Also i am far from admirable. I am so low that i am barely able to feel deserving to be anywhere near most who follow and love Yahshua.
You are in a very good spot. It is one of those paradoxes that does not seem to make sense on the surface. One of the greatest promises that Yahweh gave us is that He will never cast out a contrite spirit. But the only way to reach that point is to be able to compare who and what i am to Yahshua and i find in my own life that i too do not feel worthy to even carry His shoes. Even to the point at times that to be with Him for all eternity even at the furthest point away in the smallest hovel is so much more then i deserve. It is in that place that we can start to understand it's not about what we can do as we start to realize that we can't do it on our own. It then becomes what He can do through us and it's at that point we are actually far closer to Him then we realize.
Quote from: Del on May 31, 2011, 08:23:15 PM
M2MtF2FtM,
Many forget the Bible says We love him because he first loved us.
Everything about the gospel should come back to glorify Jesus. Since you are well on your way it is the Spirit of God that makes that change. In that manner no flesh can glory.
Jesus said Look out at the fields they are already white to harvest. The good Lord already knows who loves him and who doesn't. The reason for letting your light shine is to show that you are not ashamed of him or his word and because that is how the new ones are brought in. When a person shares the word of God the sheep know the shepherd's voice and follow. Most of today's visitations are just to bring people in so the pastor doesn't have to get a job and work for a living. But, if those people are already in a church where the good Lord wants them that is sheep stealing which is an abomination in the eyes of God. They in effect take away a person from a place where the Lord may want them and it may rob that babe in Christ of his salvation.
It is admirable that you are coming forward in due season.
Del,
Please correct me if i am wrong but isn't the main functions of a pastor to be two fold. First to spend time in prayer to seek God's leading and two to feed the sheep. Wasn't the function of the elders to do the administration of the church and for the elders and lay people do the visitations so the pastors could devote their time to prayer? It seems to me both the elders and lay people have abdicated their responsibility and have placed it on the pastors shoulders so much so that the pastors can no longer function in the way they were intended to.
Let's see... I was raised Apiscopalian, which is to say just as Catholic; half the guilt... I was an alter boy, had confirmation (mainly so I could drink the wine), and was comfortable in my faith. Until I became a teenager. In retrospect much of it was due to being uncomfotable whith the changes happening to a body that I was already uncomfotable with, but I became a rebellious youth. The church accepted me as I was, but those of the congragation would make snide comments on my hair, dress and behavior. These are the people that would hear the surmon about loving thy neighbor... And, cut you off in he parking lot. This was when I lost my faith in orginized religion... I became agnostic. I became a scholar of theology. I read the Koran, Tibetan book of the dead, mythology, astrology, and wiccan texts... It wasn't until I read, "A Tiger's Fang", that I found my concept of divinity...
Okay, so, "A Tiger's Fang" is comparable to Dante's, "Inferno"; only one mans journey through the realms of heaven, with a spirit guide. There is room for all religions in this view. And, all are alloted their place; based on their beliefs. For, all teachings are in essence the same, at the base level; treat others with dignity, kindness, respect, and love... All are a piece to a greater puzzle, and even Science is a part of that (as the Naturalist's also believed). And, all religions have been written and interpreted by man, who by nature is fallible. By whichever name you call divinity, the faith and moral fortitude is what is the crux of it all.
I believe that faith is a very personal thing; that divinity will communicate directly to you (though at times that communication may be in an indirect manner). There was a time that I had a group of friends, when we would go hiking, before we'd start out we would post questions in our minds to the divine; and throughout the hike they would be, "ah ha" moments when answered. We referred to those moments as, "Divine Realizations". There have also been a lot of times throughout my life that I've dreamt about places, times, things, and situations years before they happened in real life. I refer to these times as, "Divine Affirmations", letting me know that I am where I need to be on my path. I have had some most recently starting on the path to transition... These are the reasons that I keep my beliefs in spirituality, but I do not subscribe to a one size fits all doctrine of organized religion; for in the bible it is said that, "Where ever two or more are gathered in the Lord's name, there too is his house".
To me the ultimate is the realization that we are all energy, energy is in all things, it does not die, and as such all things are connected. There are varying degrees of responsiveness to each frequency, but we are all one. There are those more in tune to the frequency of animals, plants, humans, quasars, quarks, et cetera, but is is noticeable in each and everyone of us. That is why I hold the belief that, "Though there are many paths to the top of the mountain; some are long, some are hard, but they all get there eventually. You just don't want to be the person running around the base of it, telling everyone that they are on the wrong path."
I subscribe to the belief that I am where I need to be based on my faith in that. I can choose not to pay attention to what I'm given to work with, or I can take each day as it comes, and adjust my actions based on the stimuli I perceive... But, that's what works for me.
I love the level of conviction you all have. My mother has the same conviction and wishes I would accept a relationship with her god (the Christian one). I told her I would do that when Zeus also appeared to me. I'd like to actually be able to debate this point and proselytism is not an option. I have two rather specific questions that elaborate on my original post.
The first is this: If someone were to assault your beliefs and tell you outright that your god does not exist, how would you defend your faith? "His love led me to believe in Him" is far satisfactory as it is circular logic in that it assumes a priori the existence of God.
The second is this: Is your faith necessary for morality? Can a rational being develop a moral compass through reason alone? Can you "act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law" without an incentive like eternal life? My answer to this is yes, you can. Logic, if it is true, is will be the same no matter whose brain it comes from. If the Categorical Imperative can be reached with cold unfeeling logic and still provide a positive moral compass then an incentive is not necessary.
Late to the party, sorry. I was raised in an evangelical Nazarene church and while they have a great number of things that are positive I do not totally agree with their doctrines.
When I was very young I would have dreams with glimpses of things that would later happen to me. After adolescence, I struggled for years and went to a service held by a missionary from Africa who asked for those with any question or need to come forward so as I wanted to know if it was real I went. I was last in a line of people and he studied me closely as I was the only one who asked to know if it was real. When my turn came he told me to lift my hands and thank God for what He was about to do. The man then walked away from me about twenty feet, lifted his hands toward me and I felt what was like being hit with a bolt of electricity. I saw what I will call visions and came away knowing it is real. Many will read this and just conclude that I am a quack-that's ok too. We all have to find our own way but I consider myself most fortunate to have recieved the confirmation I was looking for.
Randi
Del,
Please correct me if i am wrong but isn't the main functions of a pastor to be two fold. First to spend time in prayer to seek God's leading and two to feed the sheep. Wasn't the function of the elders to do the administration of the church and for the elders and lay people do the visitations so the pastors could devote their time to prayer? It seems to me both the elders and lay people have abdicated their responsibility and have placed it on the pastors shoulders so much so that the pastors can no longer function in the way they were intended to.
Sarah,
Even that has been perverted. In the book of Acts it was the Shepherds, so to speak that prayed and appointed the ones to do the administration. Today it is reversed and the administration votes in the shepherd. This is wrong. The Lord should control who the pastor is and whom he sends or brings.
In today's setting I have personally seen those whom the Lord has sent be voted out because those on the board had money and didn't want to give to a man that would tell them the truth. The others on the board didn't want to lose their tithes if they left so they agreed with them and voted the man out. The innocent blood of that flock will be on their hands at the judgment seat since they voted out the one whom God sent.
I have also seen these boards vote out a man sent by God for other reasons. In each case the sheep (flock) knew the shepherd's (preacher,pastor) voice and knew God had sent him and yet he was voted out by the administration for one reason or another. Since the flock were in no position to follow that man they were stuck with the one men (administration) wanted.
The pastor, or shepherd whom the Lord sends should be the leader and head of that flock. When administration votes them in or out they are no longer the leader or head. Just another voted in pawn that will preach withing the guidelines of their doctrine or denomination or be voted out.
Sadly, the world has forgotten that the leaders were sent by God by the working of his Spirit and not voted in.
Peter was sent by the Spirit of God to Cornelius. Philip was sent by the Spirit of God to the eunuch. Paul was met by the Lord going to Damascus. The Lord picked his 12 disciples even though 1 would betray him. (Which shows that even when a man is chosen he can sell the Lord out but the Lord already knows)
The list goes on and on about the Spirit of God leading the church.
The pastor should pray for the flock and lead them. But the administration should be the part of the flock being led. In no way controlling. The waiting on tables should not override the prayer, reading, teaching and preaching.
Just another one of many reasons why the miracles have ceased from the mainstream of that which is called Christianity. The good Lord is not going to honor that which goes against his word.
I hope this clears up what I was trying to say young lady. Sometimes my wording leaves a lot to be desired.
Randi,
Though I am nobody, I believe you.
I don't see you as a quack.
Quote from: Randi on June 02, 2011, 01:06:19 PM
Late to the party, sorry. I was raised in an evangelical Nazarene church and while they have a great number of things that are positive I do not totally agree with their doctrines.
When I was very young I would have dreams with glimpses of things that would later happen to me. After adolescence, I struggled for years and went to a service held by a missionary from Africa who asked for those with any question or need to come forward so as I wanted to know if it was real I went. I was last in a line of people and he studied me closely as I was the only one who asked to know if it was real. When my turn came he told me to lift my hands and thank God for what He was about to do. The man then walked away from me about twenty feet, lifted his hands toward me and I felt what was like being hit with a bolt of electricity. I saw what I will call visions and came away knowing it is real. Many will read this and just conclude that I am a quack-that's ok too. We all have to find our own way but I consider myself most fortunate to have recieved the confirmation I was looking for.
Randi
Well shoot if I had something like this happen to me, I'd be hard pressed not to think something was up. Why can't we all get stuff like this happening to us? I once went to a Catholic youth conference when I was in high school. During the Adoration, they took the Eucharist around and a lot of people kept having these reactions to it. As for me, I felt like I missed something. Everyone else was crying or resting in the spirit but I kept wanting to experience something and nothing ever came. You can get hit by a truck and not even have to see it coming before it hits you. A truck is real and if the power of Christ was real, surely something would have happened to me, yeah? But as it stands it didn't. I was still left questioning, doubting. I shouldn't have to first accept something in order for it to be real to me. Isn't it stated that God wants us all to have a loving relationship with him? Well you can't have a loving relationship with someone you won't reveal yourself to. I can't date someone purely through match dot com and I can't get involved with God through second hand accounts. If I'm getting the silent treatment then I'm probably already condemned as you would put it. If that's the case it doesn't matter what I believe.
Maddie,
I personally have felt similar in times past. There were times when I saw others act as though they were feeling the Spirit of God and I was missing out. There were times when I questioned what was happening. If I loved the Lord why didn't he answer or reveal himself?
It was 40 years before the Lord spake to Moses. In the Book of esther she said the king has not called me these 30 days. (If I remember right)
Sometimes the Lord will hold back just to see if someone will keep going. Just to manifest a true love for him at his throne where it really matters. It seems that those who hang in there through the silent times are greatly blessed when he finally does answer. Many times those who see him first and even receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost the easiest and quickest are the first to turn when the going gets rough.
A one way love does not work as you say. I have seen it all too often. He loves people and then they choose that which he hates. The opposite form of one way love.
I hope that you would reconsider. Many times the blessings come after we believe. For some that feel that the Lord has blessed or revealed himself while they were young (my case) it is proving that the work is by the Spirit of God. Most definitely not that they are special. It is where the Spirit of God has led them right where he wants them. Not necessarily where they want to go. Sort of what the Lord told Peter. When you were young you went where you wanted but when you shall be old another shall carry you where you don't want to go. That sort of dying to self and going where the Spirit leads.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 02, 2011, 12:30:29 PM
I love the level of conviction you all have. My mother has the same conviction and wishes I would accept a relationship with her god (the Christian one). I told her I would do that when Zeus also appeared to me. I'd like to actually be able to debate this point and proselytism is not an option. I have two rather specific questions that elaborate on my original post.
The first is this: If someone were to assault your beliefs and tell you outright that your god does not exist, how would you defend your faith? "His love led me to believe in Him" is far satisfactory as it is circular logic in that it assumes a priori the existence of God.
The second is this: Is your faith necessary for morality? Can a rational being develop a moral compass through reason alone? Can you "act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law" without an incentive like eternal life? My answer to this is yes, you can. Logic, if it is true, is will be the same no matter whose brain it comes from. If the Categorical Imperative can be reached with cold unfeeling logic and still provide a positive moral compass then an incentive is not necessary.
I find that I can do more good in this world not by following the herd but by acting through reason. The truth is universal whether it passes through divine or mortal lips. Of course you want to convert the non-believers, you've been taught to do so. But the truth would be discovered even without missionary intervention. The truth, by its very nature, can convince even it's harshest critic because all things will point to it. I find it amazing and profoundly vexing that by saying I've fallen away from belief because I found it not to be true, those who still subscribe to it are immediately compelled to "save" me.
Hit by a jolt of electricity. I can see why you would believe, Randi. I thank you for answering the question.
Please follow this then:
Given A: An experience has led you to believe.
Given B: I have had no such experience.
Conclusion: I have not been led to believe.
However I do think we have reached the same end through a different path. You talk of giving yourself up and being led down the proper path. I have found humility in looking at our world and it's insignificance in the grand theater of the cosmos. Forget delusions of grandeur thinking that we can achieve a moment of greatness on this fraction of rock suspended in space. All we have is each other and because of that we must take care of each other. And when we are dead we are gone but our actions while we lived left a legacy for those to come afterward. Isn't this what should be? We should not live in hopes that we will be blessed but for others that they might have it better than we did. If this is true then yes I walk the path you talk about.
I never had no spark or electricty but what i did have was a slow change in myself that wasn't to do with anyone except my mother who prayed for me her whole life and still does. She is now 88 and i am her caregiver. her prayers have made wonderful things happen here for me. Its amazing how everything goes so right here with her living with me or driving in a car etc. Its scary how well things have gone. My transition has also been a blessing since it finally removed that nasty male sex drive and replaced negative male mental tapes with positive female tapes.
as for asulting my beliefs i surely could easily refute anyone because i have the rewards to prove it.
as for people being moral without God sure many many people are good and righteous and never knew God. I have a sister like that. She won't suffer any rath as i will for my wrongs i have done even though i do believe and have faith in above.
I edited updates on my post throughout the day, please re-read...
If I never had such experiences, I would believe in my own mind before all else.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 02, 2011, 03:36:14 PM
I find that I can do more good in this world not by following the herd but by acting through reason. The truth is universal whether it passes through divine or mortal lips. Of course you want to convert the non-believers, you've been taught to do so. But the truth would be discovered even without missionary intervention. The truth, by its very nature, can convince even it's harshest critic because all things will point to it. I find it amazing and profoundly vexing that by saying I've fallen away from belief because I found it not to be true, those who still subscribe to it are immediately compelled to "save" me.
Hit by a jolt of electricity. I can see why you would believe, Randi. I thank you for answering the question.
Please follow this then:
Given A: An experience has led you to believe.
Given B: I have had no such experience.
Conclusion: I have not been led to believe.
However I do think we have reached the same end through a different path. You talk of giving yourself up and being led down the proper path. I have found humility in looking at our world and it's insignificance in the grand theater of the cosmos. Forget delusions of grandeur thinking that we can achieve a moment of greatness on this fraction of rock suspended in space. All we have is each other and because of that we must take care of each other. And when we are dead we are gone but our actions while we lived left a legacy for those to come afterward. Isn't this what should be? We should not live in hopes that we will be blessed but for others that they might have it better than we did. If this is true then yes I walk the path you talk about.
Maddie,
I do apologize if i gave you the impression that why i believe is based on experience or feelings alone. We have been given one sign that all that Jesus said and did is true. It is the one claim that has been made that
NO other religion has made claim. It is the one claim that took 11 scared and frightened men to be transformed into bold witnesses to even speak in the heart of the very city
where it took place where it could be discredited if it was not true within 2 months of it happening. It took a man who could not believe and within moments proclaim the same thing.
The sign was so profound they staked their lives and reputations on it. They never wavered on it as being a
fact. So much so that most of them died terrible deaths. They proclaimed they were eye witnesses to the one thing that no other religion can make claim to. And what is the sign that God gave us that it is true?
Late on a Thursday night Jesus was arrested, placed on trial and convicted before the high priests of blasphomey and turned over to the Romans to be convicted of a different crime as they could not put Him to death. After going back and forth He was finally tried before Pilot and was tried for proclaiming to be a king. He was then whipped and beaten His flesh turned into hamburger and was sentenced to death. He was made to carry the very instrument of His death to a small hill in Jerusalem. Where He was placed upon it and had spikes driven through His hands and feet. Six hours later He died. The soldiers were so convinced that He was dead that they did something that is not normally done. They ran a spear through His side and did
NOT do the one thing they would do which is to take a sledge hammer and shatter the leg bones. When they ran the spear through His side what looked like blood and water came out. Medical fact is that once death occurs the red blood cells and plasma separate. At this point there is nothing to convince me that He could have possibly still been alive. He was then buried in a tomb on the side of a hill and a boulder was rolled before the entrance. Roman guards were left to guard the tomb on the pain of death.
Early on Sunday morning Yahweh's guaranty that all that Jesus said and did was given. The stone was rolled away and Jesus stepped forth from the tomb. For the next 40 days He spent time showing Himself to be alive again. It was in those 40 days that it changed the 11 scared and frightened men to be able to proclaim that as the truth as they were eye witnesses to that fact. So much so that 10 days later in the very city that Jesus died they were proclaiming it.
People have tried to explain it away but
NONE of the explanations that are used to try to explain it away do not and can not fit the time and circumstances which has led me to believe that it is the truth.
I do understand that this is just a synopsis, if you are wiling to check it out i would suggest 2 books that really helped me out. They were written by a man that started out to discredit the claims made and in the end he came to one conclusion that the facts point to only one conclusion Jesus is who said He was and He rose from the dead. He does go into far more detail and it is a fairly easy read and he does not use theology to prove it. The titles of the 2 books are
Evidence that demands a verdict and
More than a carpenter both written by Josh McDowell.
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 03, 2011, 05:46:52 AM
Maddie,
I do apologize if i gave you the impression that why i believe is based on experience or feelings alone. We have been given one sign that all that Jesus said and did is true. It is the one claim that has been made that NO other religion has made claim.
...
I do understand that this is just a synopsis, if you are wiling to check it out i would suggest 2 books that really helped me out. They were written by a man that started out to discredit the claims made and in the end he came to one conclusion that the facts point to only one conclusion Jesus is who said He was and He rose from the dead. He does go into far more detail and it is a fairly easy read and he does not use theology to prove it. The titles of the 2 books are Evidence that demands a verdict and More than a carpenter both written by Josh McDowell.
If you look at Aristeas of Proconnesus, he was a said to be a miracle worker who was one day found dead. They locked his body in a room only for it to disappear. He was discovered to be resurrected and blessed with mortality. This tale was written in the 7th century BCE. We can easily dismiss this as a mere tale, so what is it about the tale of Jesus, especially given the lack of third party historical records that makes us believe it's true?
Remember, I was raised Catholic. I know all about the story of the Jesus and the Acts of the Apostles. My disbelief is not out of ignorance but why it holds water. I mean you have scientology which is dismissed as an absolute crock. Granted it was written recently so the source is identifiable as fiction. How do we know the Bible is inspired by a higher power? You can say it makes predictions which come true later on in the same book. However that generally occurs in any book written with proper literary literary technique.
Why did I have to take the red pill?
For me it is a case of eliminating all those that don't work for me in some way. The following observations are my own opinion, and I do not wish to denigrate anyone else's beliefs, because their life has been different to mine and they will draw different conclusions.
At various times I have considered the merits of other religions, and looked most closely at Buddhism, Islam and Judaism. They all seemed to be lacking something to make them complete for me on an emotional level, despite being satisfactory to varying degrees intellectually.
I have a distinct problem with living by the book of rules approach of Judaism and Islam.
Buddhism to me tends to put the God concept in the "too hard" basket, and the lack of the concept of absolute good and evil makes moral question a purely intellectual exercise. As I cannot subscribe to the idea of re-incarnation, karma has no real meaning. Therefore why not just do whatever you want?
To me Christianity seems to have a unique revelation, that goes beyond that of Judaism and Islam, into a personal relationship based on faith and love in a way that no belief system had before.
I've run out of steam as it has been a long day, so may add more another time.
Karen.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 03, 2011, 11:52:18 PM
If you look at Aristeas of Proconnesus, he was a said to be a miracle worker who was one day found dead. They locked his body in a room only for it to disappear. He was discovered to be resurrected and blessed with mortality. This tale was written in the 7th century BCE. We can easily dismiss this as a mere tale, so what is it about the tale of Jesus, especially given the lack of third party historical records that makes us believe it's true?
Remember, I was raised Catholic. I know all about the story of the Jesus and the Acts of the Apostles. My disbelief is not out of ignorance but why it holds water. I mean you have scientology which is dismissed as an absolute crock. Granted it was written recently so the source is identifiable as fiction. How do we know the Bible is inspired by a higher power? You can say it makes predictions which come true later on in the same book. However that generally occurs in any book written with proper literary literary technique.
Why did I have to take the red pill?
I was unaware that you were raised Catholic but by the same token are you aware of the fact that i am an anomaly in that if you were to take a look at where i have been and the people that surrounded me and by what they did i
Should Not be a believer. I should also define what i mean by anomaly. All i mean by it is that it is not the usual response the usual conclusion is to reject it outright. The other is by no means am i the only one there are others who have come to the same point of believing. Please none of the following is meant to be a pity party nor does it mean that my life is somehow so much worse than any one else. It is just the path that i have been on and it is what it is.
I was raised in the Lutheran denomination and was sent to school there. At age 5 i was sexually abused by my uncle on a Halloween night. My father was a real son of a gun. He was verbally abusive,a heavy drinker,not around much at all and he was two faced in that what he showed to those outside the family was a kind and caring person but not so if you were part of the family. In grade school (mind you a "Christian" school were most are suppose to be believers) I was ostrized from day one and i was often the brunt of most of the jokes. I was a sissy boy,->-bleeped-<-,etc etc. Not only did i get it from my classmates i even got it from some of the teachers. Most of high school even while being in the youth group most of my time was spent alone. I had remained "clean" through high school but afterwards i just jump off the deep end.
It was an overnight change. I went from being a "good kid" to one very screwed up mess. At age 20 i met a young lady and we got involved very quickly. Within a week we ended up living together. At the same time i have a boss that is rather large about 6 foot 5 and about 250 lbs. who claimed to be Catholic. One night she asked to take my car and go to a Christian retreat. (Brand new at the time) She was only suppose to begone for about 4-5 days. After 6-7 days i am starting to wonder if she had actually just taken off. Just about the time i was to report the car as missing she returned and claimed that she had "found God" and was going to have to move out. The next day as she was moving out (my boss was there at the time) She started beating on me (I do still have a couple of the scars on my face from the ring she had on) To add insult to injury the two of them start making out in front of me. Due to the fact i had already been in abusive relationships i was in a very bad state.
I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 05, 2011, 06:27:39 AM
I was unaware that you were raised Catholic but by the same token are you aware of the fact that i am an anomaly in that if you were to take a look at where i have been and the people that surrounded me and by what they did i Should Not be a believer. I should also define what i mean by anomaly. All i mean by it is that it is not the usual response the usual conclusion is to reject it outright. The other is by no means am i the only one there are others who have come to the same point of believing. Please none of the following is meant to be a pity party nor does it mean that my life is somehow so much worse than any one else. It is just the path that i have been on and it is what it is.
I was raised in the Lutheran denomination and was sent to school there. At age 5 i was sexually abused by my uncle on a Halloween night. My father was a real son of a gun. He was verbally abusive,a heavy drinker,not around much at all and he was two faced in that what he showed to those outside the family was a kind and caring person but not so if you were part of the family. In grade school (mind you a "Christian" school were most are suppose to be believers) I was ostrized from day one and i was often the brunt of most of the jokes. I was a sissy boy,->-bleeped-<-,etc etc. Not only did i get it from my classmates i even got it from some of the teachers. Most of high school even while being in the youth group most of my time was spent alone. I had remained "clean" through high school but afterwards i just jump off the deep end.
It was an overnight change. I went from being a "good kid" to one very screwed up mess. At age 20 i met a young lady and we got involved very quickly. Within a week we ended up living together. At the same time i have a boss that is rather large about 6 foot 5 and about 250 lbs. who claimed to be Catholic. One night she asked to take my car and go to a Christian retreat. (Brand new at the time) She was only suppose to begone for about 4-5 days. After 6-7 days i am starting to wonder if she had actually just taken off. Just about the time i was to report the car as missing she returned and claimed that she had "found God" and was going to have to move out. The next day as she was moving out (my boss was there at the time) She started beating on me (I do still have a couple of the scars on my face from the ring she had on) To add insult to injury the two of them start making out in front of me. Due to the fact i had already been in abusive relationships i was in a very bad state.
I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later
It seems to me the true believers are those like us who have been abused both sexually and physically and mentally and so we seek a greater power outside this world. We surly know we will never be loved here on earth by people and so we pray for that love from God above. I could tell you stories that would also shock even your story. After i transitioned i had hoped to find another like myself who went thru the same and had true love to give but alas i have even long given up on that. It seems even here most of the TS want sex first without finding love. And as for the pervs who follow and stalk us well thats why i changed my appearence. I wish you well Sarah in your life and may your forever above finally bring you peace and love. I hope to see ya there :angel:
So going on.
With my defenses down he ended up moving in and it too was an abusive relationship. Three different times he tried to kill me,he verbally and sexually abused me. He also made numerous threats upon the lives of my family if i ever went to the police. All of these people claimed to be either Christian or religious. There is no logical reason why i should ever want to be a "Christian" or that i should even be able to come to that point unless there is something more to it than claiming a title.
I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later
To Maddie's post at the top of page 2-- I am both a Christian and a Recovering Alcholic whose "higher power" concept may seem at odds with the first, but really is not.
How would I defend my faith in the face of attack? I would make the person a friend first! During the course of our friendship, they would see how I approach and use the elements of my faith in my daily life to be the most complete person that I can be. They would see that my faith is openness to them as best I ever can be if they are honest about their own lives and I will try to be with mine. In the epistle of James is the quote (or close) "my faith is not my works and my works are not my faith, but by my works you will know my faith". I do not argue my faith, I live it.
Could you establish a moral basis for life without your religion? I could NOT establish a MORAL basis for anyones life without religion, nor can anyone establish one for me without religion. The basis of morality is that a supreme being (religion) has established and commanded certain absolutes of behavior. Without a supreme being taking part in it we have no morality in my definition. I do believe that good people can establish expectations for themselves and their fellow humans as far as behavior goes. I fully agree that such a system does have the advantage of not having to wait for a divine utterance or the "prayerful" enlightenment of leaders hired to do the thinking of their constituents. The trouble is that the people, namely all individuals, need to be involved in this if it is to work. It needs to be a Utopian Ethos! Such an ethos does not exist, and while some people are able to put aside their own desires and manufactured needs in order to live together, it does not happen often enough to make the world safe for life. So bad as it is, morality at least has some place in survival. We humans are still stuck in familiar groups, inspite of knowing we are global and unfamiliar.
We know where our world is today, but looking back, we do have to see where, in addition to the most terrible cruelty and oppression that can be imagined did take place, the majority of people under "Christianity" for last 20+ centuries have survived and progressed to where we have some degree of survivability beyond the basics in a chunk of the world. We can look deeply at history and see where there have been religions even before written record of them began based on ritual burial and on other scientific findings. The cultures and beliefs of those ancient religions are probably enshrined to some degree in more modern religions but changed to reflect new understandings of the universe and just the dirt around them. Even Christianity itself has changed. The thoughts and understandings of those of us who post here, are not the same as the the thoughts and understandings of Second Century Christians. The mischief that is around today is the result of trying to pass off our own slight thoughts of the day to be the weighty thoughts of history.
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 05, 2011, 07:20:05 AM
So going on.
With my defenses down he ended up moving in and it too was an abusive relationship. Three different times he tried to kill me,he verbally and sexually abused me. He also made numerous threats upon the lives of my family if i ever went to the police. All of these people claimed to be either Christian or religious. There is no logical reason why i should ever want to be a "Christian" or that i should even be able to come to that point unless there is something more to it than claiming a title.
I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later
There is a sense of fulfillment that one can experience when they live a religious life. It does make me wonder if these hateful people in your life would have been so spiteful had it not been for the black and white description of right and wrong. As an argument from the Bible itself, it was written in John 13:34, "A new commandment I give you: love one another. As I have loved you so you must love one another." If memory serves me correctly, didn't Jesus chill with the tax collectors and other rejects of society?
Quote from: Vicky on June 05, 2011, 04:23:09 PM
To Maddie's post at the top of page 2-- I am both a Christian and a Recovering Alcholic whose "higher power" concept may seem at odds with the first, but really is not.
How would I defend my faith in the face of attack? ... I do not argue my faith, I live it.
Could you establish a moral basis for life without your religion? I could NOT establish a MORAL basis for anyones life without religion, nor can anyone establish one for me without religion. The basis of morality is that a supreme being (religion) has established and commanded certain absolutes of behavior....
That's one way of looking at it I suppose. However I do pose a question that Socrates originally asked Euthyphro: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
In other words "Does God command what is morally good because it is so, or is it morally good because God commands it?"
The first case removes the concept of God's sovereignty and omnipotence not to mention that morality would exist even without God.
If the second case were true, then our morals are subject to the arbitrary whims of God. Anything could become good and anything could become bad overnight.
God gives us a conscience which tells us what is right and wrong
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 05, 2011, 05:22:19 PM
That's one way of looking at it I suppose. However I do pose a question that Socrates originally asked Euthyphro: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
In other words "Does God command what is morally good because it is so, or is it morally good because God commands it?"
The first case removes the concept of God's sovereignty and omnipotence not to mention that morality would exist even without God.
If the second case were true, then our morals are subject to the arbitrary whims of God. Anything could become good and anything could become bad overnight.
Even good pious church people tend to miss one point in the creation story. The point was that YHWH asked The man "who told you you were naked?" when YHWH catches them in their new duds the day after the fruit feast. This brings us to the question of what "good and evil" actually means. I for one do wonder if it refers to judgmentalism and not actual "rules to live by." Rules to live by would be the lazy way out, which we humans are known for. Later on clothing becomes a part of "The Law", but it appears that whatever ideas YHWH had, men were going to make them what they wanted them to be no matter how they were chisled into stone. Thus, in your first part, would we listen or obey if God gave good stuff even if it were good for us? Genesis does not make that look like a sure thing. The Man had a conscience, but it was a guilty one whether that was YHWH's idea or not.
Religions even other and older than Christianity have shown us the whimsicality of "Gods" and what they want. The incident with Moses and the 10 commandments, where Moses destroys the only known exemplar of God's handwriting, and has to go back and write the thing himself is a bit like the few seconds of blank tape in the Watergate files of President Nixon. We don't have the best evidence available.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is evolution in whatever "general precepts of morality" do exist. Morality and even an ethos derived by the minds of men must take into account the idea that we want the human race and our world to survive, so survival itself is a moral/ethical standard that needs to be here. The survival next needs to be extended from our little cells out globally to other people. We did not know this 2K years ago, but we do now. I know that I have the memory and reason to deal with this, and whether it is YHWH or BioLogy that has given them to me is not going to make a difference in what I do, but I cannot speak for another man or woman. The question that you have is an "if A then not B" structure to a structureless diety. I prefer a "if A then whats wrong with the idea that B may occur along with C, D, and F". (E deliberately omitted)
I think you and my oldest daughter have been talking to each other though!
I find that Adam and Eve were set up for failure from the very beginning. The fruit of the tree of good an evil would surely let them know right from wrong. However eating from the tree was wrong; a concept they wouldn't have been able to understand.
Imagine I tell you that you need to disarm a bomb. However you have no idea what a bomb is or what it does. Then I tell you snipping the red wire will make the bomb explode. You don't know that exploding is a bad thing because the concept is foreign. You're pretty much guaranteed to blow yourself up at that point.
This is precisely what happened in Genesis. And now we're supposed to be blamed for something that really wasn't Adam's fault in the first place. I don't know about you but I'm loath to believe the mind behind all that is benevolent.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 05, 2011, 07:13:14 AM
It seems to me the true believers are those like us who have been abused both sexually and physically and mentally and so we seek a greater power outside this world. We surly know we will never be loved here on earth by people and so we pray for that love from God above. I could tell you stories that would also shock even your story. After i transitioned i had hoped to find another like myself who went thru the same and had true love to give but alas i have even long given up on that. It seems even here most of the TS want sex first without finding love. And as for the pervs who follow and stalk us well thats why i changed my appearence. I wish you well Sarah in your life and may your forever above finally bring you peace and love. I hope to see ya there :angel:
I have met a number of missionaries that have seen first hand people coming out of the occult. Those stories make mine look like a pleasant walk in the park on a Sunday afternoon.
Right now as i have not transitioned yet it puts me in a bit of a different situation. I look at it it would not be right of me to put someone else into a bad position. So on this this i can agree with Paul when he talks about not being married that i can focus more on pleasing God.SO it's not a bad thing.
Just remember there is nothing that can take us from His hands ;)
Maddie:
I still argue in favor of the Genesis reading that they learned, not what a diety wanted them to learn, but how to be all too humanly judgmental, and decide that they knew better than YHWH or any other GD diety they could come up with. They learned how to create a need for morality, not the best structure of the morality itself. Look at the big piece of real estate they got by mis behaving though!! Possibly the human race was a bad idea as Lucifer was known to have postulated. The Gnostics may have been right after all. They claimed that the world and creation were the result of a cosmic accident and a lesser God created humans full of the piss and vinegar that we have. I do not believe in the literality of the Creation Story myself, but that does not keep me from holding a belief in the unseen, based on what I have seen and felt.
(She does sound like my eldest daughter! :-*)
M2 & Sarah--
The suffering that you and others have received is something I have shared in my own way, and knowing that we are powerless over much of our lives, I do believe in a higher power because I was powerless in and of myself to deal with my suffering. Sometimes that power can be in the form of caring loving humans that we never sought out before. I for one think that God can speak even through those who claim they reject Him as long as they can accept us whether its for Alcoholism, Transsexuality, recovery from abuse and so on. I do not need to check on someone's baptismal certificate to allow them to put their arms around me for spiritual comfort, or whether they went to church last Sunday to listen to me. Whatever compels a human heart to respond in true and accepting love is God to me.
After thinking about this today i do need to clarify a couple of points. One of the things with the drugs and alcohol
is that i had reached the point of going on binges and doing so more often by myself and even when i was going out from time to time i didn't limit myself i just kept going.
With the young woman she left me with some cuts and bruises on my face but nothing that needed doctors attention.
As for the guy the three times he tried to kill me once he tried to chock me. One he slashed my wrists. and the third he stopped on a railroad track with a train coming and locked the passenger side door. (Electronic locks)
It seemed as if he would only go so far and then suddenly just stop.
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 05, 2011, 07:20:05 AM
So going on.
With my defenses down he ended up moving in and it too was an abusive relationship. Three different times he tried to kill me,he verbally and sexually abused me. He also made numerous threats upon the lives of my family if i ever went to the police. All of these people claimed to be either Christian or religious. There is no logical reason why i should ever want to be a "Christian" or that i should even be able to come to that point unless there is something more to it than claiming a title.
I do need to leave for a bit and i do want to lose this so i will up date this later
Here i am at 21 the young lady that i was seeing is breaking up with me. Family has moved away. I had left the church,had not even looked at a bible in years, the guy i am living with is continuing the abuse, i am dealing with severe sexual issues and i am hurting so bad that all i am asking God to do is to let me die. It led me to a cold night in January i ended driving around and ended up at the last house i had grown up in. Being that it was a semi rural area we lived across one of the last farm fields in the area. I parked the car and started into the field there was still snow on the ground about 12-14 inches but i didn't care. It was a cold night about 10-15 degrees
outside. I walked about 1/2 mile into the field and i just screamed at God and yelled out "Why? I don't understand this. How can people hurt each other so much? How can anyone who says they are Christian hurt someone else so badly?" After that i just broke down and started sobbing. I headed back to the car after some time (A bit hard to do to see through the tears and the thick glasses) I finally reached the car and continued sobbing for quite some time. I still did not get an answer that night. Even through all of this there was one thing i could not let go of.
As i am about to crash on my keyboard i do need to leave it here for tonight.
The thing was is nothing ever changed until i reached a point that i did something that i had never done before. I went into my room and just started speaking from me heart. For all i knew at that point i could have just been talking to the walls. I didn't really think i had much else to lose. It didn't sound like a prayer. It wasn't flowery. It wasn't like a prayer you would hear at church. I just started listing my confusion,doubts,fears and even so far as to state that i didn't even know if He really existed. What i had missed in all of this was that i had spent so much time and effort looking at other people and asking them their views and such but i left out one person. I had Never bothered to ask God what the truth was.
Slowly as time went on i did start getting some of the answers to my questions. The thing was is that after this the people i ended up working with,the places i would go and even circumstantices always ended pointing to one person and that was Jesus. The point is nothing changed till i started seeking God Himself instead of others peoples opinions and views.
As to what happened in history there is more but i will go into that later.
Time, and God's grace. I was taught by good Sunday School teachers as a child. One was Nazarene, the other and last, a Methodist who was a kindly widow. The Methodist teacher was the one that influenced my life as did others that had her. When those other kids in my class got older and had kids themselves, they took their kids to her, even when they went to another church! We moved out of the church's area as a teenager, but I kept the faith. Going to church got rare after that until I joined the Navy. I latched on to a nondenominational group that was witnessing on board ship during lax times and went to a Grace Brethren while my squadron was in port. I reaffirmed my faith in God and His Son at that church. I been to too few services at various Baptist churches and others my relatives went. I still align myself to the Methodists though.
My job and hobbies contain a lot of science with them, but that didn't sway my faith in the higher Power. Even with my bouts with the GID over those long years, He was with me. When I go on HRT about two months in, I started to cuss at myself over the small boo-boos less and less until I heard an inner voice said "It's OK Joe, God still loves you, no matter what you may become". I never heard that kind of voice before, just the ones that were self criticizing!
Joelene
One thing that is often stated is that it's blind faith. But is this really true? Is our faith in Yahweh really to be blind? We have been given 3 things that whether you look in old testament or new He keeps going back to them. See,listen and think. He did state that our foundation was to be set on solid ground so that it would not be moved. He also keeps going back to the things He did as evidence that what He said was true and He often says believe because you have seen. So what does this mean? I believe that what this points to is that God will give us enough to be able to make that choice.
Being at the point of history that we are in a bit of a disadvantage in that we can not see what He did at that time. The second is that it is rare to see the kind of lives that is spoken of Acts. To see the kind of love and compassion that can even love our enemies. The third is that for whatever reason the kind of miracles that God performed through the disciples. But does this mean that this is the only means that God can use to show us the truth? By no means does this mean that the answer is no. I believe that He also at the same time laid down groundwork that we can check and test.
What we do have is first off we do have the four accounts of Jesus life. Two written by Matthew and John both of which were of the 12 hand picked by Jesus. These 2 being first hand accounts. Mark may have been one of the outer circles of disciples and it's very possible that it is a first hand account. Which brings us to the fourth account which is the most unique. It was written by Luke who is coming from a different point of view.
I do have to come back to this later as the weather is getting foul here.
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels. John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 08, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels. John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.
You'll have to break into the vatican for that, but then you'd also find marriage and family tree records of Jesus's (in my opinion)... Those would cause conflict in the indoctrination that has been built for centuries.
i am inclined to believe tings that are presented in logical fashion. then, for me to believe i must have empirical proof. then i will believe. i follow noone and nothing blndly.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 02, 2011, 03:36:14 PM
We should not live in hopes that we will be blessed but for others that they might have it better than we did. If this is true then yes I walk the path you talk about.
This is the essence of Judaism. Christianity is a religion of faith, Judaism is a religion of action and intellectual development.
I was thought Catholicism, the religion of my father, but not Judaism -the religion of my mother.I explored Christianity, but I found that Christianity is not the religion of Jesus but a religion Paul made about Jesus; more disturbing was discovering how Jesus was elevated to divinity.
I liked Buddhism/Zen/Taoism but while providing calmness and bliss they fail at providing a nexus to G-d. They were more of a philosophical way of live rather than a religion.
I spent many years connecting to G-d but without a religion, but something was missing. One day, while learning about Judaism, as an intellectual development and to learn about the religion of my mother, I discover that the beliefs of Judaism closely parallel my own internal moral compass, etc, etc, Thus, know i am a reform Jew. An added benefit, reform Judaism totally accepts TG; we have several ordain TS rabbis.
Shalom,
Kate D
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 08, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels. John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.
You are correct that in that sense they can be classified that way. I do apologize as i should have clarified by what i meant. What i meant by Luke being unique is that it is the only one that the writer himself states that it is not an eyewitness account. It is also a letter written to a single person. It is also the only account we have left that is not written by a Jew.
I do agree it would be a bit easier if we had other documentation. It is very unlikely to ever have any Roman documentation of the trail and crucifixion as it would have been a touchy subject as you do have the aftermath of the trial. As it would have been an embarrassment at the very least and someones head may have been on the line the evidence would have been so to speak shredded.
I have often found that i do not like the high minded sounding theologic arguments as for me they often cloud the picture and to often they end up being heated arguments.
I would like to point out that what i am sharing on these things are what give me the building blocks that i can say that what i believe is true.
Anyways going back to Luke. What do we know about Luke? We know he is most likely Greek and he is a physician. So what does this mean? It means that he is educated and most likely he learned Greek philosophy and rational thinking.
Who did he write the letter to? He wrote the letter to his friend Theophilus. Now what does this mean? First it a was a personal letter to one friend. One of the things that go with that is it's usually not intended to go beyond that friend.
What was his purpose for writing the letter? Luke states that it so his friend could know that what he was taught was the truth. One of the other things he states is that others had written about Jesus before and were speaking about the things He had said and done. One of the other things is that he himself investigated the accounts.
Now the question is why? Somewhere along the line he had heard the stories. Now it is possible that Luke may have been a skeptic or at the very least he was not convinced by just hearing what others were telling them. He wanted to find out if the stories were true.
So what does this all mean to me? What this all tells me is that Luke in his concern for his friend and himself takes it upon himself to check out the stories. He is not going to be convinced without compelling evidence. How long it took him we do not know but it was not overnight. It also gives me a bit more confidence that Luke is not pulling my leg so to speak.
Now does any of this mean that i can base my faith on this alone? Of course not all this is is a small stepping stone. But it does give me confidence that if someone else was able to see the evidence then i to should be able to.
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 08, 2011, 07:48:51 PM
I do agree it would be a bit easier if we had other documentation. It is very unlikely to ever have any Roman documentation of the trail and crucifixion as it would have been a touchy subject as you do have the aftermath of the trial. As it would have been an embarrassment at the very least and someones head may have been on the line the evidence would have been so to speak shredded.
Jesus was but one of many thousand Jew that the Romans crucified. The Romans kept details on the number of crucifixions, but no on the people crucified.
Kate D
If I hadn't been indoctrinated into my religion I still think I'd have found God. I've known ''Christians'' who made my me raise my eyebrows because of their behavior. But the ones who have that certain something which I consider true Christianity have shown me love, kindness and what it means to be a real Christian. When I hear of people being persecuted because of whatever I immediately think of the woman at the well. I know that I'll be the only one answering for the decisions I've made, the things I've done and the things I hope to do in the future.
On the other hand, if I'd been raised in a family which actively denied religion or God who knows? I do know my time at church was one of happiness and peace. And someday when I'm able to return I will. My faith is strong and no matter how many intolerant people there are it doesn't waver. He loves me.
Oh wow! a religion conversation. ill take off and leave yall to it!!
L8er
It is very interesting, and indeed a life changing experience to witness in one self and in others how the proximity of death can so quickly change what you believe. I first witness, while in combat, how most atheists and believers alike where making deals with G-d for their own survival, and when wounded most call for their mothers.They look at you with begging eyes as if you had the power of save them as they die. Tears!
Many years later I witness the same in the terminally ill patient in the hospital. Suddenly the cockiness all but evaporate. The evil, the fraud, die with anxiety, the good ones with peace and calmness, but make no mistake both know that something is coming their way.
Shalom,
Kate D
Quote from: kate durcal on June 09, 2011, 08:05:21 PM
It is very interesting, and indeed a life changing experience to witness in one self and in others how the proximity of death can so quickly change what you believe. I first witness, while in combat, how most atheists and believers alike where making deals with G-d for their own survival, and when wounded most call for their mothers.They look at you with begging eyes as if you had the power of save them as they die. Tears!
Many years later I witness the same in the terminally ill patient in the hospital. Suddenly the cockiness all but evaporate. The evil, the fraud, die with anxiety, the good ones with peace and calmness, but make no mistake both know that something is coming their way.
Shalom,
Kate D
I too have been around death and the dying, though i usually find them and see first hand their last expression. My mom died in bed, though i could tell by the look of shock on her face that the heart attack was painful enough to wake her. I have known people that have become very bitter and angry. and though their bite would sting, of course, i am a kind person with love and understnding in my heart. I tried to make her as comfortable as I could. It is VERY hard to watch someone die over 6 or seven months.
To all posters in this thread, my comment was not said with prejudice. I personally do not believe in god. And i most certainly wasn't putting anyone down for their beliefs.
I would be willig to bet that Kate does not play well with others. And who are you to judge anothers death? wow! even if someone seems cocky and angry and bitter and mean to all around them,, Have a little compassion for crying out loud! Death is a scary thing, more so when your the one going through it! Wow, Kate, I hope that you find piece,
If you can't say something good please don't speak at all. Kitty, please refrain from making personal attacks.
Randi
i only spoke that which i observed. Funny how kate makes all kinds of ghoulish replies to me here and NEVER does anyone ever say anything to her! Still, i didnt casll anyone any names, i didnt use profanity. You do not have to agree with my post, thats your right. Just as it is my right to voice my opinion, which i did, and ill do it again and again and again. After all, I am an american and so far we still have the right to speak! :P
Lets tone it down, the name calling isn't appropriate.
You both have had your say (and everyone has their right to their own opinion).
Lets move on.
wow! tone it down? oh yeah, christianity! lol! OMG OMG! lol! >:-)
Lets not derail the thread altogether-I find the topic to be quite fascinating. Kitty I apologize if I hit a nerve. We should be able to speak without raising our voices here-especially if we disagree. Although you said you did not believe in God, I get the feeling that something is bothering you and if you want to you may look for answers here too.
I have seen and done too much to not believe in God. But I'll be the first to say that I don't know everything yet. Yes you could say that I was given a 'sign' that I can look back to and know something extraordinary happened to me. Why I was given the gifts of sight from my dreams I cannot say other than to surmise that I would need this assurance somewhere along the road-and this has not happened any more since I was very young. For what purpose? Who knows for sure. Maybe it was for someone on this forum to read and seek the truth too. If someone earnestly seeks truth they will surely find it.
Read the words in the Scriptures and think about them, then read them again to see what else they say to you.
Randi
Getting back to the topic at hand.
One of the main bricks for me so to speak is the 48-52 hour window from the time of Jesus death to the time that He is claimed to be on the road to Emaus. The one thing we do have is that 3 of the Gospels are eye witness accounts and the 4th written by an outside observer. All 4 are claiming that Jesus physically came back from the dead. None of the accounts contradict each other. Yes there are some variations but that is to be expected with eyewitness accounts. If they are so alike as to be seemed to be memorized by the parties that are relaying the information then there is often something wrong with those type of eyewitness accounts. seeing as these things took place over 48 hours or so t makes sense that there are differences between them if you factor in the distance the observer is from the event,and the time when the observer was at the event and factoring in the personality of the observer one will pick out something that is important to them and another will pick out something else. So what does this mean to me? There is nothing in there to show me that what they are saying is wrong or that they don't believe what they are saying is untrue. But could they be mistaken or is it possible that they for whatever reason they are trying to pull a fast one so to speak?
Slice it ,dice it, throw it through a blender there is still one question that has never been answered. If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead what happened to the body? Is there another explanation that can actually fit the time frame,the landscape,political backdrop, and other logistics that can explain what happened? Is it Possible that perhaps they got the wrong tomb? Is it possible they were seeing things? Is it possible that Jesus just passed out and somehow revived in the tomb? Or is it possible that somehow the body was stolen? Or did it happen just as they said and He actually rose from the dead?
I do have to leave this here for now as i do have some time constraints.
The gospel of Mark was the earliest of the four to be written. Now here's an interesting fact, Mark contains only 31 verses not duplicated in either Matthew or Luke. This should raise some eyebrows because if they were written by independent eyewitnesses, then they ought to be fairly different. Granted Luke has an excuse since he says he didn't know Jesus personally but shame on Matthew for plagiary. The main point, I'm trying to make about these three is that Matthew and Luke are based off of Mark.
And what about Mark?
He parallels a lot of earlier scripture in his works. Mark 11:1-11 draws a lot of inspiration from 1 Samuel 9-10. The arrest at Gethsemane, complete with the kiss, appear to be derived from 2 Samuel 20.
It is also entirely possible that the Jesus in Mark is based off of Jesus, son of Ananus who is mentioned in The History of the Destruction of Jerusalum written by Flavius Josephus.
This passage comes from Book 6: Chapter 5: Section 3.
"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."
Again the Gospels were said to have been written as late as 70 CE. If Mark did live in Jerusalem, surely he would have heard of this fellow. It looks like I have found my Roman historical account of Jesus after all. It says similar things to what is in the bible, but nothing about the crucifixion and resurrection (which appears to have been inspired by Daniel 6).
First Mark is also the shortest of the four (16 chapters as opposed to Matthew's 28 and Luke's 24 chapters) so it makes sense that his would not contain much different then the other two. As far as i know there is nothing to show that Mark wrote his first as opposed to Matthew.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 11, 2011, 01:57:42 PM
And what about Mark?
He parallels a lot of earlier scripture in his works. Mark 11:1-11 draws a lot of inspiration from 1 Samuel 9-10. The arrest at Gethsemane, complete with the kiss, appear to be derived from 2 Samuel 20.
If you could please clarify as i am not seeing your point on this. They do not seem to me to be the same.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 11, 2011, 01:57:42 PM
It is also entirely possible that the Jesus in Mark is based off of Jesus, son of Ananus who is mentioned in The History of the Destruction of Jerusalum written by Flavius Josephus.
This passage comes from Book 6: Chapter 5: Section 3.
"But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost."
Again the Gospels were said to have been written as late as 70 CE. If Mark did live in Jerusalem, surely he would have heard of this fellow. It looks like I have found my Roman historical account of Jesus after all. It says similar things to what is in the bible, but nothing about the crucifixion and resurrection (which appears to have been inspired by Daniel 6).
First there is a major problem with this as to the time frame.
This gives the time frame better
Jesus, the son of Ananias, was a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the Jewish War against Rome began in 66 CE, went around Jerusalem prophesying the city's destruction. The Jewish leaders of Jerusalem turned him over to the Romans, who tortured him. The procurator Albinus took him to be a madman and released him. He continued his prophecy for more than seven years until he was killed by a stone from a catapult during the Roman siege of Jerusalem during the war.
He would have died in 69 CE. Claudius ruled from 41-54 AD and had written edicts as Christianity had already spread to Rome. Also Nero began putting Christians to death after the fire in Rome in 64 AD which predates the death of Jesus ,son of Ananias.
Below is taken from the annuals of Ticitus
So far, the precautions taken were suggested by human prudence: now means were sought for appeasing deity, and application was made to the Sibylline books; at the injunction of which public prayers were offered to Vulcan, Ceres, and Proserpine, while Juno was propitiated by the matrons, first in the Capitol, then at the nearest point of the sea-shore, where water was drawn for sprinkling the temple and image of the goddess. Ritual banquets and all-night vigils were celebrated by women in the married state. But neither human help, nor imperial munificence, nor all the modes of placating Heaven, could stifle scandal or dispel the belief that the fire had taken place by order. Therefore, to scotch the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians.
Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue. First, then, the confessed members of the sect were arrested; next, on their disclosures, vast numbers were convicted, not so much on the count of arson as for hatred of the human race. And derision accompanied their end: they were covered with wild beasts' skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night. Nero had offered his Gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition in his Circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity, due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a single man.
See one of the things that is often overlooked is that by the time of Nero,Christianity had spread so rapidly and was affecting even the Roman Empire. Within the lifetime of many that claimed to be eyewitnesses. The stories themselves could still be verified fairly easily.
Wow sarah thanks for the history lesson ;)
The significance of Mark talking about the donkey is that he's showing Jesus the prophetic power of Jesus, much like that of the seer in 1 Samuel.
8 While they were at the great rock in Gibeon, Amasa came to meet them. Joab was wearing his military tunic, and strapped over it at his waist was a belt with a dagger in its sheath. As he stepped forward, it dropped out of its sheath.
9 Joab said to Amasa, "How are you, my brother?" Then Joab took Amasa by the beard with his right hand to kiss him. 10 Amasa was not on his guard against the dagger in Joab's hand, and Joab plunged it into his belly, and his intestines spilled out on the ground. Without being stabbed again, Amasa died. Then Joab and his brother Abishai pursued Sheba son of Bikri.
Also what I meant about Mark being in Matthew and Luke is not that some reworded content is in those books, but that it is there word for word.
I like that you pulled up the Tacitus account.
For good measure let's pull up all of McDowell's non-Christian sources:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html)
This is also a good site as it presents arguments and counterarguments:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org
Sarah, I do want you to know that I like how we have maintained an intellectual conversation devoid of emotional pleas or name calling. Thank you.
>:-)
Criticism in the writing of the Christian is found early on on the first milenium.
"the second century pagan Celsus wrote:
"It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie, and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction: I have even heard that some of your interpreters, as if they had just come out of a tavern, are onto the inconsistencies and, pen in hand, alter the originals writings, three, four and several more times over in order to be able to deny the contradictions in the face of criticism." [tc] "
Kate D
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 12, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
The significance of Mark talking about the donkey is that he's showing Jesus the prophetic power of Jesus, much like that of the seer in 1 Samuel.
8 While they were at the great rock in Gibeon, Amasa came to meet them. Joab was wearing his military tunic, and strapped over it at his waist was a belt with a dagger in its sheath. As he stepped forward, it dropped out of its sheath.
9 Joab said to Amasa, "How are you, my brother?" Then Joab took Amasa by the beard with his right hand to kiss him. 10 Amasa was not on his guard against the dagger in Joab's hand, and Joab plunged it into his belly, and his intestines spilled out on the ground. Without being stabbed again, Amasa died. Then Joab and his brother Abishai pursued Sheba son of Bikri.
Thank you for showing me that. I will have to ponder this.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 12, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
Also what I meant about Mark being in Matthew and Luke is not that some reworded content is in those books, but that it is there word for word.
On Mark being the same. I do not know if they are word for word in the Greek. (I myself can not read Greek so....)
I do agree they are very very close. In the NIV version the wording is not identical.
I myself am not convinced that Mark was the first one written it is something i can not prove but it would seem to make sense. I think Matthew was written first but i do base this on the way Christianity spread out from Jerusalem. Matthew seemed to be addressing his gospel to the Jews (He did include the genealogies which would have been a very important point as he shows Jesus linage back through the house of David) which was the first major group to be spoken to.
I do know there is speculation that the gospel of Mark may have been Peter's account and was just written down by Mark. (Mark did travel with Peter for a time and there is speculation that he was his scribe) Mark for whatever reason did not include the genealogies which if the people who he was trying to address were not Jewish they would not have meant much so there may have been no point in including them. It also seems as if it's kind of like the readers digest version. (Not to belittle it by any means) Short,sweet and to the point.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 12, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
I like that you pulled up the Tacitus account.
For good measure let's pull up all of McDowell's non-Christian sources:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html)
This is also a good site as it presents arguments and counterarguments:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org
Thank you for pointing those out. I will check them out. I do know that the scholars themselves often will go back and forth themselves on ancient history. For example before 1960 it was thought that Pilot was a mythical figure till they found the Pilot stone in June 1961. It was found in an excavation of an ancient temple in Caesarea. It was a partial stone but they have translated the partial inscription as The translation from Latin to English for the inscription reads: Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea, has restored the Tiberieum of the Seaman (or possibly, of the Caesareans)
The partial inscription reads (conjectural letters in brackets):
[DIS AUGUSTI]S TIBERIEUM
[PO]NTIUS PILATUS
[PRAEF]ECTUS IUDA[EA]E
[FECIT D]E[DICAVIT]
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 12, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
Sarah, I do want you to know that I like how we have maintained an intellectual conversation devoid of emotional pleas or name calling. Thank you.
I do think respect for others position does go a long ways. I know what my beliefs mean to me and they are important to me. Then it only follows that someone else's beliefs will be just as important to them. I do hope that is coming across. I am learning things from you that give me something to think about. Please if ever i am not clear or
there is something that i bring up and there is another point of view please bring it up. I do not know everything by any means and i am not always aware that there are disputes even by the scholars themselves on some of early authors.
Maddie, I do thank you also. The emotional pleas can be a very big turn off for many people so i stay away from it.
The name calling just ends up hurting someone else and i know i don't like it when it happens to me so why do it to some one else. :)
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 08, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Actually matthew, mark, andluke were the synoptic gospels. John's is the one that is different from the others. What I'd like to see is Roman documentation of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. Or at the very least the census from Bethlehem would be acceptable.
By any chance is your birth name Thomas?? >:-)
No it was not Thomas. I was actually named after one of the gospel writers. Just trust me that I have a need to prove what is real in my life. I don't really want to go into more detail than that.
I find the best policy is to always put your beliefs to the test. Do not assume what you believe is true, in fact attack your faith with everything you can. If it holds, your faith is justified. If it fails, you have been freed from a lie. As for a faith that would tell you not to question it and simply believe, that is a faith with something to hide.
Your faith has saved you ;D
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 12, 2011, 11:26:46 AM
I like that you pulled up the Tacitus account.
For good measure let's pull up all of McDowell's non-Christian sources:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html)
This is also a good site as it presents arguments and counterarguments:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org
I did get a chance to look them up and was able to quickly read what their opinions were on Tacitus accounts. Please correct me if i am reading it wrong but the gist of what i was reading is that due to the fact that he was not one of the top notch historians there is some question as to where he got the information, whether if in fact he got it from actual accounts or whether he was just taking the accounts of the Christians at that time. I take it they are not saying that he is wrong but they can not verify his source. (This was something i was unaware of myself)
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 13, 2011, 07:03:32 PM
I find the best policy is to always put your beliefs to the test. Do not assume what you believe is true, in fact attack your faith with everything you can. If it holds, your faith is justified. If it fails, you have been freed from a lie. As for a faith that would tell you not to question it and simply believe, that is a faith with something to hide.
If it can't be tested and cannot be questioned isn't that what "Blind Faith" really is?
If faith needs to be proven where's the faith?
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 14, 2011, 07:50:24 PM
If faith needs to be proven where's the faith?
Please correct me if i am wrong but did not Jesus keep telling the people of His day believe in Me because of what you have
Seen? I may be wrong but i have yet to read where Jesus ever said just believe because I said so.
I believe He kept pointing to the miracles as evidence that what He said was the truth. The tomb could have been just left vacated and no one may have never seen Him but He did not do that. It is recorded that He showed Himself alive to multiple witnesses as evidence that it is the truth. Even to the point that Thomas was quoted as saying "Unless i see the nail marks in His hands and put my fingers where the nails were,and put my hand into His side i will not believe" (I do not blame Thomas as it is possible that he saw the whole thing and it would be very difficult to believe that someone actually rose from the dead after seeing them being beaten to a pulp, punctured with spikes,hung on a cross and then skewered like a kabob and then possibly helping with the burial)
Taking what Thomas said one step further. It is implied that he would not nor could not believe what he was being told, so much so that even if he saw Jesus he still would not believe what his eyes were seeing because his proof was that he had to
actually touch Him with his own hands in order to believe.
Jesus goes and shows Himself to Thomas so that he would have the
evidence so that he could believe.
Luke tells me that he was able to do the research and verify it so much so that he was convinced that it was true.
If it was verified to them can it not also be verified to us also?
I do agree that there are aspects to faith where we can not see but i believe our faith in Him can be shown to have a firm foundation and is not
blind
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 15, 2011, 05:50:18 AM
Luke tells me that he was able to do the research and verify it so much so that he was convinced that it was true.
If it was verified to them can it not also be verified to us also?
There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans. L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people. He can certainly be verified to have lived. Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).
Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule. If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit. It's certainly something to ponder.
I do think i need to clarify something when i said what i said about Luke being able to verify it, he was able to verify it enough for he himself to come to the conclusion that he did. In and of itself it does not prove it. All that it tells me is that there can be a point that it can be verified enough for us to be able to believe. Nothing more or nothing less.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 15, 2011, 09:45:40 AM
There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans. L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people. He can certainly be verified to have lived. Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).
Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule. If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit. It's certainly something to ponder.
I do agree there are a lot of things claiming to be true and now with the communications and technology as advanced as we have now i could (depending on the mind set of the one i was telling it to) taking it to the extreme "prove" that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig,Daffy Duck and Mickey Mouse are real. I could "prove" that the moon is made of salt water taffy and blue bubble gum. But that does not make it true.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 13, 2011, 07:03:32 PM
I find the best policy is to always put your beliefs to the test. Do not assume what you believe is true, in fact attack your faith with everything you can. If it holds, your faith is justified. If it fails, you have been freed from a lie. As for a faith that would tell you not to question it and simply believe, that is a faith with something to hide.
I agree. If you think about almost without exception as children we were taught about a man in a red suit that goes around once a year flying across the sky in a tiny sleigh pulled by eight flying deer. He goes around giving toys to good little boys and girls. He somehow magically goes up and down chimneys. etc.....
But the down side is how many of us were disappointed,crushed etc when we found out it was
not true. But we still go on every year putting up little displays with a fictional character because it makes us
feel good. How many Christmas specials do we see with this guy in it? But none of it makes it true.
If i am told to just believe in something without question it makes me think that it's a
scam. (How could scam artists stay in business if people started questioning if what they were saying is credible and true and can be verified?)
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 15, 2011, 09:45:40 AM
There are people who believe hard core that Xenu delivered his alien enemies into Earth's volcanos and they became thetans. L. Ron Hubbard founded this and is seen as the savior of these people. He can certainly be verified to have lived. Today we see Scientologists as crazy (much like Christians back in the day).
Gandhi was a very charismatic man who paved the way to an India free of English rule. If that had taken place in a day where comminication was sent by snail mail and word of mouth, who's to say he wouldn't have evolved into a messiah figure whose life had been embellished a bit. It's certainly something to ponder.
At the core is the deep seated human need for myths, isn't it?
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 15, 2011, 05:50:18 AM
Please correct me if i am wrong but did not Jesus keep telling the people of His day believe in Me because of what you have Seen? I may be wrong but i have yet to read where Jesus ever said just believe because I said so.
I believe He kept pointing to the miracles as evidence that what He said was the truth. The tomb could have been just left vacated and no one may have never seen Him but He did not do that. It is recorded that He showed Himself alive to multiple witnesses as evidence that it is the truth. Even to the point that Thomas was quoted as saying "Unless i see the nail marks in His hands and put my fingers where the nails were,and put my hand into His side i will not believe" (I do not blame Thomas as it is possible that he saw the whole thing and it would be very difficult to believe that someone actually rose from the dead after seeing them being beaten to a pulp, punctured with spikes,hung on a cross and then skewered like a kabob and then possibly helping with the burial)
Taking what Thomas said one step further. It is implied that he would not nor could not believe what he was being told, so much so that even if he saw Jesus he still would not believe what his eyes were seeing because his proof was that he had to actually touch Him with his own hands in order to believe.
Jesus goes and shows Himself to Thomas so that he would have the evidence so that he could believe.
Luke tells me that he was able to do the research and verify it so much so that he was convinced that it was true.
If it was verified to them can it not also be verified to us also?
I do agree that there are aspects to faith where we can not see but i believe our faith in Him can be shown to have a firm foundation and is not blind
I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do. Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 15, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do. Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.
M2MtF2FtM
I do apologize because i made it sound like i was dissing your faith. Please forgive me. After rereading what i said it does come across as if i am saying that the only way that we can that firm foundation is if we come by knowing all the written and other evidences. That is not always the case nor is it meant to be. (It does not allow Yahweh to be Yahweh) For some the proof for them is the experiences,for others it is in exactly the way you describe it, they see it in the way things work around them and still others need to see something physically. It does not mean any of these are wrong it just means that something that may touch one may not touch someone else. (All of us are different from each other so it makes sense that Yahweh would use different things for each of us)
I am also guilty of forgetting that there is more then one kind of sight. Not everything can be perceived by physical sight.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 15, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
I live with my 88 yr old mother. I am taking care of her because none of my other 6 siblings had the time nor inclination to do it. Oh they would make sure she got into a good home etc.. but their lives are busy. Just having her here with me (after i bought this old home built in 1820) this last 8 months has been more than a miracle in how things have always worked out so wonderful. She pray's constantly and well i have never ever had times like this in my life. I can only feel her faith in God / Yahshua is what is doing everything for me and he who was suppose to die due to one bad kidney she has left. I have faith in above because i have lost all faith in mankind. My response wasn't to you Sarah but to whoever it spoke too. I will always believe and no one can change that. What that is exactly, i do not have an exact explanation but in the prayers my mother says to Yahshua i do. Yes i constantly ask forgiveness from God for negative thoughts that pop into my head but her faith is unbroken and total whereas mine is weak yet sure that God / Yahshua is watching over me and caring for me and will reveal to me the truth that seems to elude many who don't have any faith in God.
M2MtF2FtM, I cared for my mom who was ill for a number of years. The day she died I was the only one with her so we spent the day talking. There was nothing the doctors could do and it was obvious she was dying. She knew and I knew. It was the hardest day of my life but something happened that day which gave me such a sense of peace. About 10 minutes before she passed, she looked up toward the wall in front of her and raised her arms as if welcoming or reaching out to someone. I know without a doubt it was either God or perhaps my Grandad and Granny who'd come for her. The expression on her face was one of happiness and I'll never forget that. When she died I wanted to die also. The only thing that kept me from acting on that was the fact that I have someone else depending on me and that no matter how difficult my life may become I have to live it and live it with faith. ''Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'' You're as blessed as me. Mama and I had great times, difficult times but I wouldn't trade any of it for all the gold in the world. Someday I'll see her again and that will be the happiest day of my life.
Quote from: Lady_J on June 16, 2011, 12:07:04 PM
M2MtF2FtM, I cared for my mom who was ill for a number of years. The day she died I was the only one with her so we spent the day talking. There was nothing the doctors could do and it was obvious she was dying. She knew and I knew. It was the hardest day of my life but something happened that day which gave me such a sense of peace. About 10 minutes before she passed, she looked up toward the wall in front of her and raised her arms as if welcoming or reaching out to someone. I know without a doubt it was either God or perhaps my Grandad and Granny who'd come for her. The expression on her face was one of happiness and I'll never forget that. When she died I wanted to die also. The only thing that kept me from acting on that was the fact that I have someone else depending on me and that no matter how difficult my life may become I have to live it and live it with faith. ''Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'' You're as blessed as me. Mama and I had great times, difficult times but I wouldn't trade any of it for all the gold in the world. Someday I'll see her again and that will be the happiest day of my life.
That must have been such an experience and well it makes me smile when i read things like that knowing its all true.
i wrote this after my fathers passing in 2007.Canvassing on Baracks Birthday - a bright light over Massachusetts, DAD ! - Culpeper Veterans Cemetary - WWII Normandy's D-day 2nd wave - I love you my sweet Jesus -1000 to 2000 WWII veterans are dying every day I wrote this on wensday but i went sick so i am late posting it.
My dad had two hip surgeries in the last 2 years. In the last month I had applied for veterans benefits for my Dad. He didn't want the benefits because he was more concerned for the Iraq veterans. I finally got him registered at the Salem VA Hospital last Monday. Two weeks ago my dad had a stroke. I went down to see him in Virginia. He was able to make a complete smile for me, even though he was paralyzed on one side. My brother went to see him the weekend before last. Then last Wednesday the nurses called me and said my dad had caught pneumonia. I told them to get him to a hospital. My brother (privately) then called and said maybe it was best to let my dad pass. I didn't know how serious my dad was or what my brother had done.My brother later told me that he didn't have much chances for a decent life.
I left last Friday at 7pm to help canvass in new Hampshire Saturday. When I arrived I received a call about 11am that my dad had made a turn for the worse. The nurses said he might not make it though the night. I was shocked. I wondered what I should do. I knew I had driven 7 hours to help the campaign and my dad was dying. I stayed and canvassed
(because like my Dad, he would have wanted me to help other veterans by helping Barack get elected to end this stupid war)
which ended at 3pm and at 3:15 I received a call that they were giving my dad morphine to ease his pain. I then headed south. At about 4:30 I was driving over a bridge and a lake in Massachusetts. I saw a bright light in the sky. Its was like nothing I had even seen before. I said to myself DAD?
In about 15 minutes the nurses called again and said that my Dad had gone un conscience. I kept driving and about 9pm I was in new jersey. I had picked up a hitchhiker in conn who helped me stay awake. He was heading west. We talked. Then about 9:15 the nurses called to say my dads body was turning colors. I called my brother who had just got out of a wedding. My brother said if I felt able I should keep driving. I also had to call a funeral home to pick up his body. My brother was tired from the wedding so I made that call. I kept driving and I had to smack my face constantly to stay awake and the rider had helped me too. I had arrived in staunton Virginia at 5:53 am. I walked into my dads room and he was breathing hard but I didn't realize his condition. I just saw him burning up. I placed some towels I had soaked in ice water to cool him down. I still didn't realize just how bad he was. I cried as I layed my head to his chest and heart and hugged him and then he slowly began to breathe slower. I then called the nurses and they came into the room. Within 2 minutes he gritted his teeth and passed away. He had allowed his body to stay alive until I got there and then he saw I was hurting so he stopped his body. I then realized the bright light over that lake in Massachusetts was my dad. I then went to his sister rose's nursing home. I told her that he was gone. I had been keeping her informed as I drove from new Hampshire to Virginia.
Sunday night I was able to get some sleep at my aunt rose's house in waynesboro Virginia. There I was visited in spirit by my Dad, my grandma, my grandfather (who had never visited me spiritually) and my uncle Charles, who I barely knew but lived many years at that house. It was short but sweet.
Yesterday I buried my dad at culpeper veterans cemetery. He was a Normandy veteran. He was the second wave after D-day. My brother was there to receive the flag. We are both Vietnam veterans. I told the man to put "I love you my sweet Jesus" under his name and dates etc. My other siblings were not able to make it. There had been some issues they had but my brother and myself knew dad had suffered much from WWII. We had forgiven him for his issues over 20 years ago. We had been visiting him since the late 80's. My Dad had taught me how to work. He use to say a "nickel a bag" which meant we could earn some money by collecting weeds in a paper grocery bag and he would give us a nickel. He also prayed with me each night as a child. I would always end the prayer with "goodnight my sweet Jesus - I love you my sweet Jesus" My Dad would say that's a Danie prayer! My dad also taught me to plant vegetables and most of my life I have planted gardens if not for me for someone who had the space. This year I did plant mostly flowers for the woman I care give, but I did get a volunteer tomato plant which so far just has flowers due to it being in a shaded location. It was from my composting pile.
I finally got back to Phila last night. I had a friend take over for me (taking care of the 84 year old woman I care give/ Mom)
I did just receive a call about my campobama training next weekend. I told them I would be able to make it.
Dad you are always with me now. You will help guide me in all I do just like nanny has been doing.
PUBLISHED: Friday, July 27, 2007
Each day, 1,000 to 2,000 World War II veterans die nationally.
The last two weeks really took a toll on me. I had ignored my own health and today i went into the VA Phila hospital from 7am till 11am and was given IV and injectable medicine. I have a major infection in my kidney which was causing me to be in a state of high fever. I thought it was just the east coast heat.
Keep me in your prayers and may God watch over us all as we understand that when we die we only shed ours shells. Our spirits do live forever. Its the love we share here that will keep us connected once we move on.
My favorite saying is
"Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return"
I'm not trying to ruin a moment here but the brain itself is a wonderful thing. It responds to chemicals such as melatonin (sleep), serotonin (happiness), oxytocin (love), dopamine (feeling good), and literally dozens of others. Under times of great stress (such as running a marathon or fighting for your life) the brain releases endorphins to counteract the pain and let you keep going. This is commonly referred to as runner's high.
Your brain has to interpret acoustic and visual information. It has to recognize countless faces, excelling at those we see most often or have strong memories of. When it acts up, it can make you see and hear things that aren't even there at all.
My point is that the brain is responsible for pretty much everything. It drives our perception of reality and tells us how we're feeling. It's the command center of the body and it needs a lot of oxygen to function. When the heart stops, the brain stops receiving oxygen. All sorts of systems get screwed up leading to out of body experiences and the like. That white light is a cascade of neural activity as the brain's cells struggle to survive. You might even see people important to you. All in all it seems like a better place. After that flurry of activity, the brain cells begin to die and after a time there is no way to revive the person as the brain is simply too damaged to get going again. Death itself isn't instantaneous either. It's a fairly long process lasting several minutes from cardiac arrest until total irreversible death.
Understanding this model, I'm not afraid of death. It should prove to be quite pleasant when it occurs. Of course I could end up getting my head blown off or have one of many other violent deaths. You know it's funny, my mother always says "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't no proof is enough." I suppose that's true to an extent. If you already believe, you'll see things that prove your faith all the time and leave it at that. And those who don't believe will see the same occurrence and see it as a matter worth investigating.
You're in my prayers. Thanks so much for sharing what you wrote about your father. It brought me back to two years ago when Mama passed but this time I smiled. Parents love us so much and even when dying they continue to do so. God bless you.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 16, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
I'm not trying to ruin a moment here but the brain itself is a wonderful thing. It responds to chemicals such as melatonin (sleep), serotonin (happiness), oxytocin (love), dopamine (feeling good), and literally dozens of others. Under times of great stress (such as running a marathon or fighting for your life) the brain releases endorphins to counteract the pain and let you keep going. This is commonly referred to as runner's high.
Your brain has to interpret acoustic and visual information. It has to recognize countless faces, excelling at those we see most often or have strong memories of. When it acts up, it can make you see and hear things that aren't even there at all.
My point is that the brain is responsible for pretty much everything. It drives our perception of reality and tells us how we're feeling. It's the command center of the body and it needs a lot of oxygen to function. When the heart stops, the brain stops receiving oxygen. All sorts of systems get screwed up leading to out of body experiences and the like. That white light is a cascade of neural activity as the brain's cells struggle to survive. You might even see people important to you. All in all it seems like a better place. After that flurry of activity, the brain cells begin to die and after a time there is no way to revive the person as the brain is simply too damaged to get going again. Death itself isn't instantaneous either. It's a fairly long process lasting several minutes from cardiac arrest until total irreversible death.
Understanding this model, I'm not afraid of death. It should prove to be quite pleasant when it occurs. Of course I could end up getting my head blown off or have one of many other violent deaths. You know it's funny, my mother always says "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't no proof is enough." I suppose that's true to an extent. If you already believe, you'll see things that prove your faith all the time and leave it at that. And those who don't believe will see the same occurrence and see it as a matter worth investigating.
maddie i do not mean to be abrupt but you must be working for the devil/lucifer/satan >:-) >:-) >:-)
THE DEVIL MADE HER DO IT >:-) >:-) >:-)
There's an equally statistical likelihood of either God or the devil putting me up to this. In both cases the odds are zero percent. I can understand why one would associate bright lights in the sky and other such things to faith. But that's a circular argument for why someone believes. One starts out with the idea of God's existence. And with that bias already in mind, one attributes that they know God exists based on coincident phenomena. However the only reason the idea that it's attributed to the supernatural is because of the initial idea that the supernatural exists in the first place. Whence comes this idea?
As for myself, I was taught from an early age the ways of Catholicism. However I noticed too many inconsistencies for most of the "proofs" to prove anything. In a world where bright lights are the souls of the dying, there ought to be bright lights in the sky all the time (the stars don't count). Of course people are going to have similar near death and actual death experiences. Our brains are built upon remarkably similar genetic instructions and this are remarkably similar to each other as far as involuntary reflexes go. Remember correlation does not imply causation. You might notice that there aren't as many pirates around as there used to be. You also notice global warming has gone up as of late. It stands to reason then that pirates keep the earth cool. Incidentally Somalia, a country with a lot of pirates has very low carbon emissions. This little fact "proves" the previous conclusion quite nicely.
Maddie the scientist! Maddie if you were there at 9-11 when i got there the first day as a volunteer working to pull bodies out below the walkway bridge you could feel the spirits all trying to get themselves back into composure because their bodies were all torn apart. It took them days and even longer to understand what had happened to them. This is something you have to be open too. If everything is all fact based well then even your world of science can't go forward with theory. Yet my brother who is a physicist at John Hopkins applied physics lab knows that he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown. Yes he is like you and has given up on spirituality. However, he is always amazed at the spiritual things that happen in my life. It boggles his mind he says.
What makes me believe? When I was a practicing Catholic, the answer was mostly outside pressure. You had to believe or you would be ridiculed.
What makes me believe now is logic, to the extent my puny human mind can take it. Infinity? Something from nothing? No beginning and no end? There has to be something beyond the physical.
I believe because the Son of God has come into my life and made changes in me that I could not do myself.
The good Lord told Thomas Because you have seen me you believe but blessed are those who have not seen me and yet believe.
The Bible says that we have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. Those blessings aren't always those that are seen as in money and such. It is in salvation and having the peace which can only come from Christ. That peace in our heart and soul and the counsel of peace between man and God's wrath to be poured out on the last day. Money can't buy salvation and just being straight, cisgendered, Baptist, Protestant or whatever won't be good enough.
The blessings in Psalms are for the most parts spiritual. Not what the televangelists have twisted the word of God to represent. The Bible says they will pay for blaspheming the word of God and causing the unbelieving to mock God.
The Bible also says faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. The eternal substance in heaven mentioned in Hebrews is Christ who is the substance of our eternal hope and the evidence of the unseen God.
When the day comes when they find Noah's ark for sure and can prove it and the remnants of Sodom and such there will be no more time for men to be saved. When that happens it will no longer be faith. It will be as Thomas who had to see to believe.
The good Lord even asked, When he returns will he find faith.
But, that's what I believe.
Quote from: Del on June 17, 2011, 09:55:39 AM
When the day comes when they find Noah's ark for sure and can prove it and the remnants of Sodom and such there will be no more time for men to be saved. When that happens it will no longer be faith. It will be as Thomas who had to see to believe.
For me, it wouldn't matter if they found Noah's ark or not. If it ever existed, it wouldn't prove to me there was anything spiritual about it. I would certainly be impressed if it was large enough to carry all the life it was said to have. And I would be VERY impressed if one man built it. But it would do nothing for me in terms of making me believe there is a God as described in the Bible.
As far as finding Sodom, scientists have a theory about where it is and how it was destroyed. Again, if they are right, that would have no influence on my religious or spiritual beliefs. What I believe at this point is pretty stable. There would have to be something REALLY extraordinary to alter it.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 17, 2011, 06:22:49 AM
Maddie the scientist! Maddie if you were there at 9-11 when i got there the first day as a volunteer working to pull bodies out below the walkway bridge you could feel the spirits all trying to get themselves back into composure because their bodies were all torn apart. It took them days and even longer to understand what had happened to them. This is something you have to be open too. If everything is all fact based well then even your world of science can't go forward with theory. Yet my brother who is a physicist at John Hopkins applied physics lab knows that he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown. Yes he is like you and has given up on spirituality. However, he is always amazed at the spiritual things that happen in my life. It boggles his mind he says.
I hope I never have to witness such a thing. Not because it would upset my world view but because of the tragedy for those involved. If such an unfortunate event occurs near me, I'll be on the lookout for spirits. I am however of the opinion that evidence will present itself whether you are open to it or not. I don't have to believe in cows to see one in front of me.
he has to have faith in his theories for him to calculate things unknown
Yeah, but there is no real risk involved. If his theories, or calculations, or both, are off, then it's not like at that instant the earth spins off it's axis and goes careening through the universe. All he's doing is trying to solve a problem, and anyone, and everyone, who has ever looked at 'solving problems' in the broad sense knows that there are a hella lot more incorrect ways to solve them than correct ways.
That's all science really is, a collection of our 'correct solutions' with a predictability rate attached. There is nothing you have to 'believe' in fact, if its not demonstrable, its' not science. It's all based on the measurable world, a world we experience with our senses. Science says nothing about which it does not know, because "I don't know" is considered an appropriate answer, if you really don't know.
But when you start planning and living your life based upon something that can't be seen - metaphysics as it were - well that does involve more than a degree of risk.
Well, particle physics still hypothesizes the existence of the Higgs Boson (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-exactly-is-the-higgs) (AKA the 'God' particle) as an explanation of why everything in the universe has mass, even though no one's ever actually seen or found one of them. (Although they thought they had, at the Large Hadron Collider, a couple of months ago, but it turned out to be a false alarm (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13424231).)
So it seems there's a fair amount of belief at the cutting edge of science. Folks in Switzerland are searching for a God, of a sort. :)
seeing is believing >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-) >:-)
Quote from: SarahM777 on June 11, 2011, 06:13:36 AM
If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead what happened to the body? Is there another explanation that can actually fit the time frame,the landscape,political backdrop, and other logistics that can explain what happened? Is it Possible that perhaps they got the wrong tomb? Is it possible they were seeing things? Is it possible that Jesus just passed out and somehow revived in the tomb? Or is it possible that somehow the body was stolen? Or did it happen just as they said and He actually rose from the dead?
Going on. Is it possible that somehow they actually just got the wrong tomb? Taking a look at the gospel accounts and also what the historians themselves do not dispute can we not get a better picture?
First the Romans were not having an easy time in Judea. Pilot was already dealing with many different factions. The last thing he needed was another faction.
So much so that he gave into the chief priests demands and put Jesus to death.
The chief priests and Sadducees did everything they could to end this sect. They spied on Him and sent out many to try and trap Him in both word and deed.
They were also aware of the claim that Jesus made that He would rise from the dead in 3 days. They were so concerned they went to Pilot and requested a guard to be placed at the tomb.
So it implies that both the Romans and Chief priests
knew where the tomb was located.
The tomb itself was a new tomb. Most likely at least one of the women would have helped in wrapping the body after it was placed into the tomb.
So what does this mean? In order for them to get the wrong tomb it would have had to look a lot like the tomb into which Jesus was laid.
It also would have had to be very close to the same area. Jerusalem at that time was not very large in fact the old city was only about 1 square kilometer.
Not a very large area in deed. So the women go to the tomb somehow they get the wrong tomb and tell the disciples that the body has been taken.
(Even at this time they were not yet saying that Jesus rose from the dead) Now you then have 2 disciples going to the tomb and somehow they also get the wrong tomb.
It is also recorded that the guards went to the priests and also claim that the body was gone. The priest go so far as to bribe the guards and relay the story to Pilot.
Less then 2 months later they are in the very city that these things took place the disciples are claiming that Jesus rose from the dead.
Which then bodes the question if somehow they got the wrong tomb why did not either the priests or the Romans ever squelch the claim
if they both knew where the tomb was and it was in their best interest , why did they not just show them the correct tomb?
Even those who did not believe the story at that time never made the claim that the body was not missing.
In light of this i can only conclude that they got the right tomb and somehow the body went missing.
Taking a look at the gospel accounts
All of them, or just the Fab Four? And even the Fab Four do not agree. So which one is more right? We think a lot on the word 'tomb' when it's just a hole in the rock, with another rock(s) covering the hole.
what the historians themselves do not dispute
You don't know many historians do you? There is not much that is not in dispute. Hell for the American Civil War (a much more recent event) about all the agreement I can find is: Between 1861 and 1865 there was a war, the North won. These events, poorly documented to begin with by our standards, most of those records scattered to the wild wind, much of it coming from widely differing factions all with an axe to grind and then run through a couple of translation-by-committee meat grinders have little to sustain any agreement.
First the Romans were not having an easy time in Judea.
Who ever had an easy time governing in that god-forsaken place? Of all the ungovernable places on earth it's the most ungovernable of all. 'Twas ever thus.
And you just kind of toss that off, when in reality it's pretty important. If Rome is (and they are) having trouble in Judea then it's unique because Rome really only faced trouble on its frontiers, you don't have this kind of trouble inside the Empire. The Empire is set up to avoid this kind of trouble. Rome runs in a way that modern empires do not, it never replaced the local culture, rather Rome moved into that culture. Rome let local law be, which means in Judea the Jewish Law (whatever that meant, it is/was Jewish Law and it has lots of interpretations) ran civil affairs and stuff like 'blasphemy' courts and Roman Law only dealt with Imperial stuff (money and trade and the Legion). So there was no need for the Jewish courts to turn him over unless they could not agree. And they couldn't. Never could. That's why it was ungovernable.
And, what we have in the Bible, is something written by people (except perhaps Luke) who viewed Rome as the oppressor, an occupying force (and it was) and so what is written about the trial, who among the high priests and the major cults that were both religious and political, (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes - who the writers of the bible also have disagreements with), who was really saying what becomes problematic.
Maybe Pilot ditched it. He had a good reason to. No body, no resurrection (a very common religious belief at the time in that area, this one resurrection story is not an isolated example). It is also recorded that the guards went to the priests and also claim that the body was gone. The priest go so far as to bribe the guards and relay the story to Pilot. That's a classic deception ploy by the way. Get the people who ditched the body to go tell the others it's missing. Guess who knows exactly where not to search too?
In order for them to get the wrong tomb it would have had to look a lot like the tomb into which Jesus was laid.
It's a hole in the rock in an area full of holes in the rock being used to store dead bodies. Burial was a big huge deal to just about everyone in the ancient world. Most religions were a huge part burial cult. They took place at certain sites, so which hole in the rock is it exactly? Once its covered up it could look like any of the others.
It also would have had to be very close to the same area
Like the place of execution, the tomb is clearly outside the city walls as the existed at that time.
When it comes to history, and the Bible falls into the category of a history book, you have to remember history is written by the victors.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 16, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
I'm not trying to ruin a moment here but the brain itself is a wonderful thing. It responds to chemicals such as melatonin (sleep), serotonin (happiness), oxytocin (love), dopamine (feeling good), and literally dozens of others. Under times of great stress (such as running a marathon or fighting for your life) the brain releases endorphins to counteract the pain and let you keep going. This is commonly referred to as runner's high.
Your brain has to interpret acoustic and visual information. It has to recognize countless faces, excelling at those we see most often or have strong memories of. When it acts up, it can make you see and hear things that aren't even there at all.
My point is that the brain is responsible for pretty much everything. It drives our perception of reality and tells us how we're feeling. It's the command center of the body and it needs a lot of oxygen to function. When the heart stops, the brain stops receiving oxygen. All sorts of systems get screwed up leading to out of body experiences and the like. That white light is a cascade of neural activity as the brain's cells struggle to survive. You might even see people important to you. All in all it seems like a better place. After that flurry of activity, the brain cells begin to die and after a time there is no way to revive the person as the brain is simply too damaged to get going again. Death itself isn't instantaneous either. It's a fairly long process lasting several minutes from cardiac arrest until total irreversible death.
Understanding this model, I'm not afraid of death. It should prove to be quite pleasant when it occurs. Of course I could end up getting my head blown off or have one of many other violent deaths. You know it's funny, my mother always says "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't no proof is enough." I suppose that's true to an extent. If you already believe, you'll see things that prove your faith all the time and leave it at that. And those who don't believe will see the same occurrence and see it as a matter worth investigating.
In the face of unexplained input the brain makes up an explanation, to great unexplained phenomena (the reason for life, the universe and everything) the best the human brain could do was to come up with religion and/or metaphysics.
Kate D
Quote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Taking a look at the gospel accounts
All of them, or just the Fab Four? And even the Fab Four do not agree. So which one is more right? We think a lot on the word 'tomb' when it's just a hole in the rock, with another rock(s) covering the hole.
As my posts have been over a period of time and i have been adding to my first post i did not think i needed to reiterate that i was looking at the 4.
Quote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
what the historians themselves do not dispute
You don't know many historians do you? There is not much that is not in dispute. Hell for the American Civil War (a much more recent event) about all the agreement I can find is: Between 1861 and 1865 there was a war, the North won. These events, poorly documented to begin with by our standards, most of those records scattered to the wild wind, much of it coming from widely differing factions all with an axe to grind and then run through a couple of translation-by-committee meat grinders have little to sustain any agreement.
Where in that statement did i say that there was much that they do not dispute?
Quote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Taking a look at the gospel accounts
First the Romans were not having an easy time in Judea.
Who ever had an easy time governing in that god-forsaken place? Of all the ungovernable places on earth it's the most ungovernable of all. 'Twas ever thus.
And you just kind of toss that off, when in reality it's pretty important. If Rome is (and they are) having trouble in Judea then it's unique because Rome really only faced trouble on its frontiers, you don't have this kind of trouble inside the Empire.
The Empire is set up to avoid this kind of trouble. Rome runs in a way that modern empires do not, it never replaced the local culture, rather Rome moved into that culture.
Rome let local law be, which means in Judea the Jewish Law (whatever that meant, it is/was Jewish Law and it has lots of interpretations) ran civil affairs and stuff like
'blasphemy' courts and Roman Law only dealt with Imperial stuff (money and trade and the Legion). So there was no need for the Jewish courts to turn him over unless they
could not agree. And they couldn't. Never could. That's why it was ungovernable.
Here again if you go back i had stated there was only about 4 other plausible explanations of what may have happened to the body. There did not at this point for this
explanation that any more was needed other than both Pilot and the priests had motive and reason to end this as quickly as possible.
Quote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
And, what we have in the Bible, is something written by people (except perhaps Luke) who viewed Rome as the oppressor, an occupying force (and it was) and so what is written about the trial, who among the high priests and the major cults that were both religious and political, (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes - who the writers of the bible also have disagreements with), who was really saying what becomes problematic.
Which makes Luke a bit unique. Being that he is most likely Greek,was educated,and most likely was taught rational thinking, he would not have been easily persuaded without
to his mind solid evidence that what he was saying is true. His letter was written to one close and dear friend who was Greek. He even states his purpose for writing the letter
was that his friend could know that what his friend was being taught was the truth. The political and religious squabbles other than where they had an impact on what he was trying say
would have most likely had very little impact on him.
Quote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Maybe Pilot ditched it. He had a good reason to. No body, no resurrection (a very common religious belief at the time in that area, this one resurrection story is not an isolated example). It is also recorded that the guards went to the priests and also claim that the body was gone. The priest go so far as to bribe the guards and relay the story to Pilot. That's a classic deception ploy by the way. Get the people who ditched the body to go tell the others it's missing. Guess who knows exactly where not to search too?
This does not make sense to me as why would he poke the hornets nest so to speak? It also does not make sense as the priests themselves would have
made 100 % sure that they had the right tomb. They had every reason to protect their power and position. If you were in power and could very easily disprove the very thing that is
becoming a thorn in the side why not do so? Disprove it and it's check and mate,game over,time to go home and last one out turn off the lights. Disprove
the resurrection and Christianity fails as that is what they pointed back to.
As there are many others stories of a resurrection does that not beg the questions does this not mean that somehow with all the other stories
that this is the single one that somehow continued on. All of the others must somehow,as they did not go anywhere, were disproved as they all died.
Which implies that those who were hearing these claims knew what they were looking at and hearing,they somehow knew what to look for if it was false.
Add to that the fact that within a very short time they were preaching this in the heart of Rome itself
while the very ones
who claimed to have seen it were still
ALIVEQuote from: tekla on June 20, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
It also would have had to be very close to the same area
Like the place of execution, the tomb is clearly outside the city walls as the existed at that time.
Taking into account that Jesus dies at 3:00 PM on a Friday afternoon just before the Sabbath. And factoring in even the very latest date for Easter and the Sabbath starts at sundown,
it only allows at the maximum 3 hours and 15 minutes of daylight to remove the body,wash it,wrap the body in linen and pack it with spices and transport it to the tomb
lay it in the tomb and secure the entrance. How far could the tomb be outside the city? Not very if all this was to be done before sunset.
Looking at the controversy even here, it's no wonder that believing isn't as common as it used to be.
There will always be controversary, because in the end it is a matter of "Faith".
No matter what proof you look for, think you have found, no matter what scientific example you look at, whatever, your final acceptance of God is a matter of faith.
God is not provable to those who don't want to find Him.
I do apologize for the post breaks. (It did not look like that on my end when i posted it) For some reason the right margin keeps going on my comp screen
and i am not sure why.
this is an absolutely fantastic thread, and i wish there was a "like" button for posts on here. :)
my own personal accepting of jesus has been largely due to the life that has been dealt to me. i've honestly had a fairly difficult life.
a quick synopsis of the few things i have dealt with;
three divorces with biological parents.
military parents and grandparents on both sides of the family, forcing me to be someone i'm not.
the loss of home, vehicle, and a job on more than one occassion.
the death of a best friend and business partner, causing me to go bankrupt and again lose my home lol.
there's a whole lot more to it, but the point is that i've come to an excellent relationship with God on my own terms. i was raised catholic, then moved to christianity, but they're just labels. i'm not fond of labels. granted, the best church experience i've had was christian. anyways, through the strugges i've gone through God has always brought me through, made me a stronger person, and showed me the reason was always to bring me to a higher place. for the longest time i questioned why God would allow me to have such a difficult life, and even questioned God's existence because of hardship. it wasn't until i lost everything, and was on the opposite side of the country from family to realize that he was there all along. and again, not only was he there, but was allowing such hardships for a reason.
i hope this is beneficial for someone. and again, this is a fantastic thread.
Hi, Madirocks,
Thank you for sharing your story with us. I am happy to know that you are forging ahead despite so many reversals.
We all have our experinces that leads us to belive in the existance of G-d. For me it is the beouty of evoution, molecular biology, and quantum physics that l;eads me to belive in a Cosmological G-d.
Kate D
I think the concept of a personal God, as opposed to a distant grand designer, can be a rather important survival tool. Belief in God will lead you to be more optimistic. Think about someone raised in a loving household vs an abusive one. I'm sorry if anyone reading this suffered abuse, however chances are those raised in a loving household will have a better outlook on life. The same goes for believing that someone is always there for you, even if you can't see them.
This belief could even be written into some sort of genetic memory. It could have pushed our ancestors farther for food. It could have given them the edge they needed to endure harsh conditions. If that's true, then God certainly does exist, just not in the traditional sense.
Kia Ora,
::) It's possible this happens because ones "senses" have succumb to "advertising"[with a little "subliminal" persuasion thrown in] ... And as we all know this can apply to things both spiritual and commercial...
The concept of a God has been "up for sale - on the market" for a long time...And sale people are on "commission" ....
Well that's one possibility on "What makes one/you believe!" But I could be wrong..........
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 24, 2011, 11:10:52 AM
I think the concept of a personal God, as opposed to a distant grand designer, can be a rather important survival tool. Belief in God will lead you to be more optimistic. Think about someone raised in a loving household vs an abusive one. I'm sorry if anyone reading this suffered abuse, however chances are those raised in a loving household will have a better outlook on life. The same goes for believing that someone is always there for you, even if you can't see them.
This belief could even be written into some sort of genetic memory. It could have pushed our ancestors farther for food. It could have given them the edge they needed to endure harsh conditions. If that's true, then God certainly does exist, just not in the traditional sense.
Dr Maddie,
I could not haver put it better, the clarity the logic. I wish I could hre ypu to work with me
Kate D
I think I killed the thread.
I love your posts Maddie.
Kate D
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on June 27, 2011, 06:57:54 PM
I think I killed the thread.
Maddie,
I will go on if you want. I am just dealing with severe time issues at the present. I am just so swamped with projects that i do need to get done and i do also work from home which i am so swamped also. I just have to make sure i balance things out otherwise i will start getting feeling overwelmed with everything and i will go into a severe depression and i for sure do not want to go down that path again.
I do also deal with a severe lack of confidence in myself and it has been hard for me to put down my words. (it has been good as i am taking the steps to be able to build it up but it is still very shaky at times) and i am starting to have to deal with it at the moment. Please bear with me as it will take me a bit of time to finish but i will get there.
How far could the tomb be outside the city? Not very if all this was to be done before sunset.
You forget how tiny the world, and cities in particular were, before cars. Really old Jerusalem is not all that big.
The execution and burial were almost right next to each other. Really, no refrigerators in a desert climate, you bury dead things fast. They are/were close enough (ahem, allegedly) that both locations are within Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Since about 326 C.E., there have been efforts to preserve (not really) the site of the cruxifixtion and the tomb. So they were going on what was pretty recent knowledge (because most religions are huge burial cults, people don't forget where they put the dead. On the other hand the Romans had already kicked the Jews out, so perhaps they were just guessing. This location is inside the wall built by Herod Agrippa about 100 yards, if that, beyond the Wall of the Kings, which was the city when Jesus was there. It's about 220 acres (one square kilometer / 0.386102 sq. mi - for reference, at least for me, Golden Gate Park is about 5X bigger, 1013 acres)
Anyway they are not more than a hundred, hundred-fifty, feet apart.
Disprove the resurrection and Christianity fails as that is what they pointed back to.
Pilot didn't care about that. All he cared about was order and stability. It wasn't Jesus that he was trying to calm down, it was the Jews. You know he loses that job eventually for being to hard on the Jews, they were nothing but trouble. Really, there is no Christianity at that time, there is only this crazy rabbi (and there are lots of them floating about at the time) with his own little sect of Judaism going on.
If you were in power and could very easily disprove the very thing that is becoming a thorn in the side why not do so?
The thorn was not the tiny Christian cult, but the entire Jewish political scene. That turmoil had zip to do with Jesus, had everything to do being under occupation. What, some 30-70 (depending on how you count it, the calendarization of all this is more than slightly suspect) years after the time of Jesus the Romans finally used the one remaining tool for keeping order. They destroyed it. And the Romans were not interested in arguing religion, any religion. Part of what kept the Pax Romana together was a near total religious freedom and toleration. That, and no one ever wants to argue religion with Jewish academics, they invented that game. They always win.
Rome never seemed to worry about getting people to agree with them. If you really disagreed they crucified you, for minor disagreements you'd spend the rest of your life as a galley slave, in the mines, or as entertainment in the games.
Which makes Luke a bit unique. Being that he is most likely Greek,was educated,and most likely was taught rational thinking, he would not have been easily persuaded without to his mind solid evidence that what he was saying is true.
Well the first thing that makes Luke unique is he never was near Jesus. He comes along much later and seems to use the gospel of Mark. And being taught rational thought does not always produce constant rational thinking. And the main Greek deal, at least as I read it, is that it's very much in a Greek Historical accounting style.
there was only about 4 other plausible explanations
I favor any explanation that accounts for folly, irresponsibility, anger, and stupidity. Because that's the way human beings really act.
The Romans never allowed the bodies to be pulled off the crosses. They were left there to rot, to be a visual and smelly reminder not to mess with law.
Kate D
Actually, aside from a pretty pointed reminder not to fight with Rome, the bodies were left there to intentionally deprive the person and their family of a burial, which was (not surprising in a burial cult religion) a real big deal. But I was under the impression that Jewish Law forbid them being up at that time, and in matters of local custom, Rome let local custom prevail. And this was only a little death event. Only 3 of them. Crassus crucified 6,000 of Spartacus' men along the Appian Way from Capua to Rome. That's 119 miles of people on crucifixes. Josephus (who is the one and only contemporary source to mention Jesus) tells a story of the Romans crucifying people along the walls of Jerusalem. So he took them down, I'm sure he had more to hang as soon as the holiday was over.
When I hear about the fall of the Roman Empire I think, "What fall?" It never fell. It just morphed into the Catholic Church.
Quote from: Julie Marie on June 29, 2011, 08:44:45 AM
When I hear about the fall of the Roman Empire I think, "What fall?" It never fell. It just morphed into the Catholic Church.
and all the sweet lead used to make water pipes for piping water into the city surely messed with their minds.
and the "Catholic Church" into the western European Civilization.
Kate D
and all the sweet lead used to make water pipes for piping water into the city surely messed with their minds.
Yeah, but the people not using such water systems were dying of chorea, typhus and dysentery at substantially higher rates then the Romans were, so net gain Rome. BTW, some of those aqueducts are still in use today. I'm impressed by anyone who can build things that still function 2,000 years later. We can't even seem to build stadiums (a much easier thing to build than an aqueduct system) that lasts 20 years w/o falling apart.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 29, 2011, 01:34:07 PM
and all the sweet lead used to make water pipes for piping water into the city surely messed with their minds.
Actually the lead story is just an hypothesis, and only applies to some drinking cups, and only when the drink was acidic (certain wines and juices). Most Roman pipes were copper (for hot water) or clay for drinking water ans sewage.
Kate D
Quote from: kate durcal on June 29, 2011, 05:31:03 PM
and the "Catholic Church" into the western European Civilization.
And that into the United States of America. ::)
Quote from: Julie Marie on July 05, 2011, 06:07:56 AM
And that into the United States of America. ::)
which will morph into the United States of the World
I BECAME A BELIEVER THROUGH FAITH IN ACCEPTING AND RECEIVING JESUS INTO MY HEART. It was a real and life changing experience. THROUGH THE YEARS I HAVE BEEN BLESSED AND HAVE CHANGED MYVIEWS ABOUT MANY TOPICS. My being transgender is also part of GOd's plan for my life. Gennee
I don't know how to explain it but ill try....
When I was going through the hardest times in life and everyone else turned their back on me; Jesus was what kept me going.
I have to believe in my faith or else i would of been dead a long time ago.
It was my junior year of high school, and I ran away and took a rope with me to the water levy near my house. I was so ready to make a noose and hang myself which I been planning for weeks. And when the moment of truth came. I sat there praying to god asking him "If you are real then give me a sign!!". And in an instant I got this image of this beautiful girl that I am guessing was suppose to be me. I knew if i gave up right there that I would not of experienced life on how I wanted to live.
My relationship with god only gotten stronger since then. It gives me a sense of comfort that I have him in my life. :angel:
jordonna,
I'm glad to see that the Lord obviously revealed his grace to you. Seeing this is your first post welcome aboard. I hope that you can be a positive witness for the Lord on this forum. May the Lord bless your future. Take care kiddo.
Thanks Del!!! Its a pleasure to be here with you guys and share my trans experiences.
It's good when we get confirmation-just don't let others talk you into believing God doesn't work that way anymore. You will find those in almost every church in the modern times. They just don't know how to listen anymore-and more times than not they are in positions of authority.
Randi
I hear you Randi.
I think that is what pushed me away as a child.
I remember cursing at god ...and asking the devil to take my soul in exchange that he "correct" me.
My mom teach me alot of this (i know alot)
But i don't believe anything right now >:-)?
This may sound hypocritical of me but while I don't believe, having faith can be a positive thing. To me, god exists in the hearts and minds of those who believe and it is there that he does the most good. Having a rotten day? God has your back. Everyone walked out of your life? God is still there. That belief is a powerful confidence booster. With that said, do you think someone who doesn't believe can live a full, happy, productive life?
All of my life I have quested for god. My faith is unbreakabull my love of all unmoveabull. Years of praying and fasting have led me to a deeper understanding the most. While I am christin I more conseder myself a servent of the one master are lord god. Let his name be praised and hiw will be done. Are issues and worries are ares not his. Are bigottery is not his. How can a carring and mercyfull god hate. "we can only be who we are no more and no less. To do otwer wise is to prfane aginst the cerateor."
Given certain circumstances in my life, I was about 34 or 36 I made a commitment.
I accepted Christ as my personal saviour, spoke in tongues, visited services, payed my tithes, gone through deliverance (exorcism), become an exorcist, got thrown out of church for not "following the leader", and straight out of the Sanhedrin that "fired" me, spoke my prayer to Christ, and here I am, still praying, thanking, showing gratitude --- but being somewhat aware of all too much "humanness" in "leaders" so since then I have not gone back to any services I can recall, but gone quietly in to the odd church for prayer on my own.
I have no truck with doctrine and I like to keep it simple.
My commitment was to Christ and not to St. Paul or any of the other many "helpers", Saints, and Apostles.
My believe is strictly between me and Christ as it stands at present.
I still remember the song by Crosby, Stills and Nash "Carry on" that I played when I got thrown out of Church.
"Cathedral"
Six o' clock
In the morning, I feel pretty good
So I dropped into the luxury of the Lords
Fighting dragons and crossing swords
With the people against the hordes
Who came to conquer.
Seven o'clock
In the morning, here it comes
I taste the warning and I am so amazed
I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way
To Stonehenge.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
This can't be the place
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.
Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.
And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine.
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time.
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high.
I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
It's hard enough to drink the wine.
The air inside just hangs in delusion,
But given time,
I'll be fine.
A strange song with most beautiful music. It helped me along on my way from there on for a LONG time.
I highlighted the refrain that seemed somehow so appropriate to me.
Bless you all,
Axelle
After I began HRT, one night I felt this huge feeling of faith, out of the blue.
Since then I have been going to church, a protestant one here in Brazil. I'm still not passing very well, but I get no weird stares there, I like the environment and it has me feel better afterwards. I can't possibly explain why I began going, I was not raised into ANY faith at all and my parents weren't church goers.
One night, simply, I felt God was touching me and it was about time I should begin going to church. This happened fairly recently, two weeks ago.
It seems a lot of reasons are based off of a feeling. Interesting.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on August 01, 2011, 03:18:28 PM
It seems a lot of reasons are based off of a feeling. Interesting.
"Feelings" are but the product of the holistic nonlinear activity of the nervous system. Despite what my analytic scientific brains tells me, experience has taught me to trust my feeling or intuition or what ever you want to call it
Kate D
As people we will tend to over intellectualize things we can't explain so we resort to breaking things apart and examining them piece by piece. You can't break down the Holy Spirit or it's effect upon us individually. If it weren't for our feelings we could not tell when the Spirit was trying to get our attention. Please bear in mind that the Holy Spirit is an entity such as ourselves and not some thing which simply does our bidding. He is the active force that we have the most interaction with in these days on Earth and I say HE only because that is the default gender assignment made for someone who is beyond our understanding.
I have always thought and still think that GOD is both male and female and that is the way we are made as well.
I was brought in church and always that there was someone greater than me. Even before I accepted Christ in my life (1972), I saw how God brought me through some tough situations. My father was drinking heavily, I lacked confidence, and observed people in the world around me. I concluded that life is more than money, job, retirement, and a house. I asked myself after people get all they want, what's after that? Therems feelings but there's the fact that Jesus did come into my heart. Scripture does confirm this. GENNEE
Maiara,
It is a blessing that you are feeling led to go to church.
Many times those "feelings" are the leading of the Spirit of God.
Considering the title of the thread I would now say, "my life to date".
Non-belief in the idea that I have intrinsic worth would not have led me to anywhere but an early grave. I reached a point where I had no alternative answer to where to turn.
Instead of reading the Bible from cover to cover; attending churches where the congregation speak in tongues, worship saints, or follow some self-appointed fount of all wisdom; I just stopped looking and waited for an answer to came into my head.
I just knew, I can't explain it. I can talk about what led up to it, but not what happened. English lacks a word for it. Although 'Grace' is close, the closest I can come is the Arabic word Islam in it's most commonly accepted translation. "Submission to the will of God", but not in a fatalistic sense.
Sorry I can't do better than that.
Karen.
My life has had its ups and its downs. Shouldn't I be in an early grave due to my lack of belief? I'll tell you what though, nothing has given me more drive and determination to make the best of my own life than the acceptance of the fact that this is the only life I get. For me there is no afterlife to make up for anything I did right or wrong in this one. Why then, would I want to just throw in the towel? If this is my one chance to do some good for others, why give that up early?
For those who believe because they are blessed, who do you blame for all the bad stuff that happens? If someone is giving you great things, it stands to reason they could also be throwing you under the bus.
I dont believe because nowhere in the history of man has there ever been any strong sound evidence that a god even exists........at least in the form in which most believe today. I believe that "The Communist Manifesto" authored by Karl Marx summed it up best...........Religion and the concept of a god and afterlife, diverts believers attention from their life misery and how it helps them thru their day. If there is one argument that I stand by, it's this: believers are always making excuses for their god. If a "prayer" is answered, it's a miracle and if not, "it wasnt god's will"........what a crock of $hit in my opinion.
Supposedly, this is an "all loving god"....if that's the case, why are there so many children in the world starving to death, why are women and children permitted to be abused, why are so many homeless, so forth and so on? I love my son and I would certainly never permit him to starve or be homeless!
Here in the US, it is the religious right wing that is always persecuting and discriminating against the LGBT community. Religion, in my opinion, is the root cause of all the worlds problems and the disagreements in different religions. I also think that religion is the biggest con job ever........either believe in this concept or you're going to spend an eternity in this place called hell...........and a very vivid pertrayal of this place called hell provided as well. If their is one thing that republicans and religion have in common it's this: scare tactics using fear to get you to believe something!
Naturally, since my degree is in biology and my grad work is in biology, I adhere to the theory of evolution as the evidence has shown us how we came to be.
If you dont believe in evolution, think about this.......why do we require a flu shot every year and why have bacteria become resistant to antibiotics?? it's simple........the influenza virus and bacteria have evolved to ensure it's own survival! nuff said
For those who believe because they are blessed, who do you blame for all the bad stuff that happens?
Non-believers. Sinners. People like you and me really.
To me :
God is love
not god is loving
Love is God
sins are what a person knows in their own heart
no one can see in our hearts
we judge ourselves
Jesus understood the connection to the Love / God
Individually, we try to make a resting place in our hearts for love/god
Jesus understood the false teachers / pharisee's
Religion isn't where one will find God because God is love, but there are people who do know love/god in most religions
most Religions push the opposite of love because they do judge others
I am forgiven for my sins (that i judge myself of) when i realize that i should feel forgiven because to not feel forgiven is to hold onto the evil that would try to destroy me / us and because Jesus / yahshua taught us to accept that forgiveness.