Ok, I'm now at the 7 month mark and I pass most of the time. It's very rare that I don't pass in everyday life. I'm finding I pass the least in queer/LGBT spaces. In those spaces, I'm read as a butch lesbian most of the time and people refer to me as female. It's really frustrating to be in this situation because most everywhere else I'm read as male.

I must point out, I DO NOT HATE QUEER PEOPLE! I identify as queer myself and all of my friends are along the LGBT spectrum. I have NO issue with queer or queer identified people in the least. I'm posting this because I was attacked in another FTM facebook group because the think I hate LGBT people.

Anyway...I just find that this is interesting and frustrating. I don't know what to do in this situation. If they don't think I'm butch, they clock me as trans* right away. It sucks. I just want to be seen as male. Has anyone else ever ran into this issue? What did you do? Does anyone avoid these spaces because of this reason or something similar? I hope this makes sense.

i can't really offer advice darrin, but chances are you get clocked so easy in the queer community is because it IS  the queer community, its the one place where *most* of the people in it are aware of trans people and aren't just living in a gender binary bubble. it sucks - but thats how the cookie crumbles.

I get "that's how the cookie crumbles", but it sucks. I'm just looking for a place to vent is all. I understand that that's how things are and I understand WHY it's happening. It. just. sucks.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on September 19, 2012, 11:08:43 PM
I get "that's how the cookie crumbles", but it sucks. I'm just looking for a place to vent is all. I understand that that's how things are and I understand WHY it's happening. It. just. sucks.

Hell yes it sucks, from just the pics i've seen of you, you for sure pass - so i definitely understand your frustration, it'd be so much easier if we just got clocked as gay boys but that rarely happens for me either :/

And that's why I don't hang out in the "queer" community, aside from the fact that I don't view myself as queer or anything, I'm straight. 

What would make them think you hate LGB people?

Oddly enough, I started consistently passing in both the gay and straight communities at the same time. I worried that I would have much more trouble--and for longer--at the LGBT center and in the gay part of town, but it just didn't happen. I've been very fortunate.

Just give it more time and stay away from San Francisco.

Quote from: Andy8715 on September 19, 2012, 11:56:32 PM
What would make them think you hate LGB people?

people are rather sensetive so if you say something your easly labled even if thats not the point.
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I mostly pass as a gay guy, but a few times I think some mtfs have mistaken me for a mtf.
like I been telling them "No I dont take estrogen I take testrotorone!" and yes it kinda sucks, even when I think I somehow could also take it as a compliment because maybe it like I look like a guy who want to be a girl, but its still kinda odd.. right?

I think its harder to pass in the gender-fluent places where men usunally are more femenine, and girls can be more maculine, and he and she and ze, I know this from myself.

to make you feel better 7 mounths isnt that long again, you still have a long time for your body to work out your way.

Just after I started T, I went out to dinner with a trans man and his wife in Gayopolis. The other guy had been on a low dose for maybe a year, give or take a few months. Our waiter addressed us all as "ladies" and was clearly so proud that he was labeling the butch lesbians appropriately.

We were all very uncomfortable with this, of course, but we just went along with it. My philosophy at the time was that as long as I was in the "androgynous zone" (as long as people didn't see me as fully male) I would just let them gender me as they saw me. I figured that I would wear myself out correcting strangers, so I only corrected those close to me. I knew that things would change pretty quickly and that soon I would be passing completely with strangers but still correcting some of my old friends!

Quote from: Arch on September 20, 2012, 01:49:28 PM
Just after I started T, I went out to dinner with a trans man and his wife in Gayopolis. The other guy had been on a low dose for maybe a year, give or take a few months. Our waiter addressed us all as "ladies" and was clearly so proud that he was labeling the butch lesbians appropriately.

We were all very uncomfortable with this, of course, but we just went along with it. My philosophy at the time was that as long as I was in the "androgynous zone" (as long as people didn't see me as fully male) I would just let them gender me as they saw me. I figured that I would wear myself out correcting strangers, so I only corrected those close to me. I knew that things would change pretty quickly and that soon I would be passing completely with strangers but still correcting some of my old friends!

Oh yeah, I don't really correct people and go along with it when they misgender me. It just sucks to be in this position. I just think it's funny that it happens in LGBTQ spaces over the rest of society.

I'm fully aware this happens and that's the reality of it, but it sucks.

The original facebook message was this

"I really don't like queer spaces. It's really the only place my identity is not recognized. People assume I'm a butch lesbian. In the rest of the world , I'm male. Anyone else feel this way?"

I guess people thought I was hating on LGBTQ people in general, when it's the spaces, (which has a lot of straight allies in it) that bother me. I certainly didn't mean any malice at all. I did write that fairly quickly and in anger, so I guess it just came off wrong.

I actually don't usually correct anyone myself either, but my mum gets really into it, she's like my own personal correctormachineylady its crazy. i love my mum ;_;

I don't see how what you said makes you the evil queer hating monster they say you are, sounds like a bunch of tools with nothing better to do than to pick some random thing, pull out the pitchforks and jump on a bandwagon, they're probably just bored, sounds a bit like wow players, whingers for the sake of whinging, people need to get a grip on themselves.

I'd love some tips on how to handle a situation in a queer setting. I've seen people out and wondered if they were butch lesbians, pre-T, or perhaps just early in transition, etc. I want to respect their wishes. I'm terrified of asking, of course. I end up trying to avoid using pronouns at all. One problem is we live in a world where women can wear men's clothes and it's no big deal. If you see someone wearing women's clothes, you can be pretty confident that they are identifying as a woman because there is so much taboo associated with men wearing women's clothes.

I have a lesbian friend who seems to be flattered when she's mis-gendered, which seemed odd to me. Is that typical? If I mis-gender a lesbian, am I likely to get an ear full?

That is part of the issue. Society says it's ok for a woman to wear men's clothing and not ok for a man to wear women's clothing. I think all of this begs the question, what really makes you "pass" as opposed to being read as butch? Where is the line? Secondary gender characteristics like facial hair? Some butch lesbians do act very masculine. I think that's why this is so difficult to navigate. Even I don't know how to approach the situation.

As far as lesbians liking being misgendered? I don't know. I can't speak for everyone. I don't know if it's typical, either.

Thoughts?

Quote from: dalebert on September 20, 2012, 03:29:07 PM
I'd love some tips on how to handle a situation in a queer setting. I've seen people out and wondered if they were butch lesbians, pre-T, or perhaps just early in transition, etc. I want to respect their wishes. I'm terrified of asking, of course. I end up trying to avoid using pronouns at all. One problem is we live in a world where women can wear men's clothes and it's no big deal. If you see someone wearing women's clothes, you can be pretty confident that they are identifying as a woman because there is so much taboo associated with men wearing women's clothes.

I have a lesbian friend who seems to be flattered when she's mis-gendered, which seemed odd to me. Is that typical? If I mis-gender a lesbian, am I likely to get an ear full?

I have no idea, im as confused as you. I think i'd just stick to not mentioning pronouns to be honest because the only way you'd know is if you asked or someone happened to mention it. As for your friend I think its a 'person by person' thing rather then a group thing. I doubt all lesbians would be that chuffed if they got mis-gendered.

To OP I got clocked not that long ago by other ftm's, I never do in day to day life. I suspect it doesnt happen much out and about because most people would just never think about it. To be honest I dont really interact with any form of community, I just have my life and thats it. I think it would bug me though because like you said I just want to me seen as a man.

Darrin:
it happents usunally on the net when stranger cant read whatever your suportive or not, I somehow feel the same, my friend posted some pansexual post on fb yesterday and I had SUCH a big desire to point out how annoyed I was, because it was this "when your pansexual you can fall in love with a transexual" which I dont feel is a good way to think of the label, But I didnt because it would make me look like a ignorant f*.
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I had 1 lesbian or bisexual girl who was fine with being mispronouced or misgendered, but I guess everyone is diffrent but most lesbians I know dont like to be misgender either..
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for the point of the passing rules how to pass it really imposible.
its not just about being "maculine", being read as male, and being read as maculine is not really the same.
I think im one of those people who pass better as more femenine I am, compared to being maculine, kinda wierd, but if I dress femenine people will think "oh your femenine look sligly femenine makes sense"
if im maculine people go like "your maculine but your face look so girly comepare to the macho type"

also I always point out to people on this forum thas passing also depends on people around you, like you mention you pass pretty well just when your not in the queer comunety.
or putting it up in another way its alittle like the race thing. Many white people who grow up in areas with mostly white folks cant see the diffrence between asians and general think they all look the same, also many asians cant see the diffrence between white people if they have grown up in a area where most of the population is asian.
the reason is because you sort of learn to reconize each other and look after things in each other and these are alittle diffrent from place to place. a japanese girl once said I looked like a certain guy which I didnt understand cause he was a ginger and I dont have red hair (unless if I colour it) but its because shes looking at the face, for eropeans haircolour is pretty much a thing to notice, but not for asians because most of them have dark hair.

I think its alittle the same for the passing thing about genders,
if people are used to see a guy who dress up in dresses, then they probably find it more easy to tell whatever its a guy or girl, and if people are used to see girls in male clothes then they find it more easy to see. thats pretty much whats make it hard for transfolk to pass, Because sociaty have been kinda used to the thing that woman can look very maculine and still be women, so to pass really is pretty hard, even if you look masculine.

dose all this make sense?

Quote from: Darrin Scott on September 20, 2012, 04:07:16 PM

As far as lesbians liking being misgendered? I don't know. I can't speak for everyone. I don't know if it's typical, either.

Thoughts?

From my own observations, everytime ive seen a lesbian misgendered, they were mad and corrected the person

Quote from: Darrin Scott on September 20, 2012, 01:58:37 PM
I'm fully aware this happens and that's the reality of it, but it sucks.

I don't think anyone here disputes that. But you haven't been on T long, and queer communities are so accustomed to ultra-butch women. The butch women I've seen get very touchy when misgendered, so I think that folks in gay communities are more likely to gender a person as female if they aren't sure. In my experience, gay women get much more upset at being called "he" than gay men do at being called "she." In some gay male circles, they all use "she." Used to drive me crazy in this one men's group I attended for a little while.

Quote from: Arch on September 20, 2012, 10:15:27 PM
I don't think anyone here disputes that. But you haven't been on T long, and queer communities are so accustomed to ultra-butch women. The butch women I've seen get very touchy when misgendered, so I think that folks in gay communities are more likely to gender a person as female if they aren't sure. In my experience, gay women get much more upset at being called "he" than gay men do at being called "she." In some gay male circles, they all use "she." Used to drive me crazy in this one men's group I attended for a little while.

I get that. I guess I just get down because I see people who have been on T as long as I have and have a chin strap. I know it happens to more than just trans* men. I wonder why people instantly think "female" if they aren't sure of a persons gender, though....

Quote from: Darrin Scott on September 20, 2012, 10:26:41 PM
I wonder why people instantly think "female" if they aren't sure of a persons gender, though....

In my experience it is safer. Men generally get a little less offended if a waiter/cashier/etc use female pronouns than women do when someone calls them "he". When I was a pharmacy tech things got so busy I would use the wrong pronouns all the time because I was just acting on reflex. I only ever got cussed out by a woman who I accidently called sir. I called a very, very, very masculine man "miss" once and I thought he was gonna die laughing. All he really had to say was "well, that just made my day! Guess I'm prettier than I thought!" So that would be my leaning. It tends to be safer.

Quote from: Arch on September 20, 2012, 10:15:27 PM
I don't think anyone here disputes that. But you haven't been on T long, and queer communities are so accustomed to ultra-butch women. The butch women I've seen get very touchy when misgendered, so I think that folks in gay communities are more likely to gender a person as female if they aren't sure. In my experience, gay women get much more upset at being called "he" than gay men do at being called "she." In some gay male circles, they all use "she." Used to drive me crazy in this one men's group I attended for a little while.

This pretty much. I have a butch lesbian friend and she is as sweet as can be until someone calls her anything male. The worst was "young man". I didn't think she had a mean bone in her body until that happened. My gay male friends though call eachother "she" as a joke, though.

Like I said, I think it is safer to misgender a guy because they will laugh it off and think it is a slip of the tongue for the most part. (Unless they are really uptight, in my experience). Women though, tend to get very touchy if someone uses anything male for them. I had one lady tell me that I was a "slave of the patriarchy" for accidently saying sir.  Yep. Ya got me. It couldn't be that I work in a pharmacy and I am busy.

In all honesty, people don't normally intentionally mis-gender someone. In fact, most of the time they are just trying to be polite.