If there is a cat in the box, is the Transwoman a lesbian? 

Heisenberg shrugs his/her shoulders...

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
Heisenberg shrugs his/her shoulders...

Or did she?

It's hard to be certain...

Quote from: ashrock on September 16, 2012, 04:20:38 PM
As a programmer, I once tried to stuff the logic of life into the logic of math. Science as a while is full of this backward thought.  In nature we often behave in mannersunexplainable in a mathematical sense.  We dont always act logically, our even always how are genetics dictate we should. Human actions always perplex me because I really do think in terms of binaries.  However, my own emotive expressions are often completely counter to my logical mind, and I am realizing that I, and everyone else exist in a space that differs from the apparent logical space we can measure. At least as far as emotions are concerned

Good points.
I always thought life is more analog rather than digital.
Someone asked me the other day
"Do you feel male or female today?"
I had a hard time finding an answer.
I replied "A bit on the feminine side right now"

I feel i am always in some state of flux between the two. Rather than a switch i think of the new led keyboards. Any combination of three colors gives you 256 possible  choices.
With   masculine feminine and androgyn aspects of gender combined with thousands of life's divergent (and convergent and static) possibilities  the formula gets pretty complex.

It's all to do with the observer's perception.

@Joann:
My answer for what I feel like every day is "human".  Im not in touch with myself enough to provide a more definite answer.  I am living as a male but don't really relate at all.  I do relate to women, but only partially.  It's really lonely, not understanding yourself or anyone else...  My real question to you, is who do you feel like you are tomorrow? (worded with confusing tenses on purpose)  That is what I am trying to determine for myself.
@Felicitá:
Honestly, I wish it all that simple.  It could be that I have a small imagination, but I just cannot see things as I want to see them, not matter how hard I try.  Not every thing is fuzzy and visual trickery like that oft used image.  Some things are more apparent and agreed upon by others.  For example, I know you can see either woman in that image, but can you see a horse?  It is extremely unlikely for someone to have the perception that they see a horse, much less a group of people uninitiated to the extreme convincing that person would likely to have receive.   

"We use words to get beyond words, until we reach the pure wordless essence."

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 02:00:20 AM
Schrödinger's Gender.

Lmao
Your gender is in Schrodinger's closet...

Quote from: Padma on September 17, 2012, 09:10:48 AM
"We use words to get beyond words, until we reach the pure wordless essence."

Indeed,
An understanding and agreement of perspectives by dialogue.

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 17, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
Indeed,
An understanding and agreement of perspectives by dialogue.

Ativan

I do understand what you guys are saying, but again, there are things that I and others see that might not be able to change.  No matter what the perspective on it, some things will always remain something else.  What I am learning is that really the visual and physical existence of flaws within my own human form need not bother.  That I can see something besides what I want in the mirror and things are ok.  I dont need to make others see what I want either.  Now what I must do is focus on removing these behaviours and reactions that I have adapted to protect the fragile soul of my being and open myself up to the world.  I dont need to mimic physical reactions of others either.  I am not some actor, and must not live my life as such.  The hard thing to admit, in this moment of acceptance, is that if what is visible does not truly matter should I even try to change it?  When I look in the mirror sometimes, things just seem wrong...  Can one truly resign their physical form as inconsequential?  Especially difficult since society from the being has tried to convince us that it is of utmost importance.

Quote from: ashrock on September 17, 2012, 03:31:20 PM
Can one truly resign their physical form as inconsequential?

Just ask this man.

He's a world class runner. To see him without the blade and one wouldn't have pegged him for a world class runner. That said, he's a T42 Paralympian world class runner and not an able bodied one. (Though he'd certainly run faster than me, and he hasn't even got any legs).

All this would seem to suggest the body is not inconsequential and can be overcome, though not completely and utterly.

Quote from: ashrock on September 17, 2012, 03:31:20 PM
  That I can see something besides what I want in the mirror and things are ok.  I don't need to make others see what I want either. 

I'm struggling with this too. Who am i trying to please?
I look in the mirror and say "You are ok. Yes even damm good." But others look, listen ,sence "He/she is a queer".
I can spend a lot of time money, effort trying to please and conform to others desires whether cis or or trans.
Workouts, cologne,  jock sports, guns, red meat, body hair or
Makeup, fashionable clothes, jewelry, boobs, and other extreme bodily changes but for who?
Its easy to say "F.u. to all of them. Ill do and be who i want.." But its not that easy. We still want approval from our friends, family and peers.
Having a hard time finding words to describe this but i guess we just have to find the balance thats works for each of us.

"Is Androgyny just the first step to full transition?"

Well, for me it was, though only for a few weeks until I figured out what to do next...

Axélle

Abracadabra
Just when I thought that I had the whole androgyny forest as a great destination and a much better place to be my low dose hrt no longer seems able to help me stay safely and anonymously within the forest.
I dont understand this as when I started low dose hrt it quietened the demons almost immediately - there were minor but quite welcome physical changes together with quite major and extremely welcome emotional changes and none of my relationships (wife, family etc) were threatened in the slightest.
But now the drums are beating again and urging me onwards.  The GID seems to have come back in spite of the low dose hrt which had previously been enough to keep me in a good  place.   My endo is cool with this as he sees this as a journey where I am the navigator, or a book where I am a coauthor..
Did this happen to you or did you always feel that you were heading through the forest with an end in mind ?   I really would like to stay here and enjoy the best of both being m and being f but I can see that I need more E and I suspect that this will not keep me in the forest, it will set me on a path leading slowly but surely away from here.   Not sure I am ready for this - time for counselling

Also, don't do the feminine thing and try to feel your way through it.

Do the androgyne thing, stumble around and declare the stumbling around a plan once you actually find yourself somewhere.

Abacadabra/Pica

Really appreciate you sharing your experience and perspective.  I have learned to be a great male -  very analytic, very objective, quite phlegmatic and have tended to live in my head rather than in my heart or in my soul.   I think that 'stumbling' around the forest will be the best that I can do in the short term.   There is no way that I am feminine enough to 'feel my way' around - I don't yet trust my feelings and I am preoccupied in progressing  in a way that minimises hurt or embarrassment to others.   Being selfless in this case isn't really helping me attend to and to listen to my needs.

FFS made a real difference and the hrt is relentlessly opening me up to a new way of being ... like you I really was more comfortable believing that I was in control and that I could fix an endpoint ie sitting in the middle, a transition of sorts - real growth with limited fall out but I am beginning to
feel that I am deluding myself and that my inner self knows exactly what is going on and where we are headed.  It no longer feels that I can stop what I have started and while, like you, I have done more than my share of dangerous and risky things, further transitioning feels so right but also so scary

Thanks for listening

Helen

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 23, 2012, 08:15:06 AM
Once we start FEELING our way... we also start to KNOW more.
In my experience there was simply no way to say at the beginning this is where it will 'stop'. I actually actively refused to even get into the subject of it. I. e. it will stop... where it WILL stop.

Though in all honesty... we ACTUALLY do KNOW! We just refuse to acknowledge it, as it all seems so way out, so 'off-the-wall'. Like all things TS have that element to it.

Axélle,

I agree about knowing, but not being ready to acknowledge. A friend recently asked me about when I'd decided to transition again. I answered that, deep down, I always knew I would.

I still have no idea now how far I will go, as I allow myself to settle in and feel the effects of each step, the next step becomes more apparent.

Z

It's sounding like this thread is going in that direction of misleading definitions.

You can indeed go through an androgynous stage that leads you to full transition as a transsexual.
You can indeed be Androgyn and go through a transition that is full in expression.

But they are two different things.
The distinction may seem like too fine a line, but it is not.
It's not a grey area. You may discover that you are one or the other, Androgyne or Transsexual.
This happens all the time. We wonder about it, at times as individuals, who we are.
And why not? We are Transgender, it covers a lot of ground when it comes to expression of gender.
Trans, the word itself, is about moving through that expression, but it is also about just having an expression.
Gender can be a binary, defined as Male or Female. A distinction of qualities.
Gender can be non-binary, defined as qualities that may or may not include those of binary, a different distinction of qualities.

It is a mistake to view Androgyn as simply being a part of expression.
Expression and gender are two different things, regardless of the way they go hand in hand with each other.
Expression is not a linear thing, a line that is traveled from one point to another.
Transsexual can be a change in expression, of one binary to the other, to adjust ones expression to their gender.
With many places to pause in between, if one desires or circumstances dictate that it happens that way.
Androgyn is the same, in expression, but the difference is that Androgyn is non-binary, regardless of expression.

One does not simply change from Transsexual to Androgyn and back to Transsexual.
One does not simply change from Androgyn to Transsexual or vice versa.
But one can discover, whether simply or not, that they are one or the other.

Androgyny is a part of being an Androgyn. It is not a stepping stone to change your gender.
Androgynous is a stepping stone for many in expression of gender.

Androgynous is a part of being Transgender, it is something we have in common.
It's something that we can share in a positive way to understanding the differences and similarities of binary and non-binary.

It may seem like a small point to some of us, but to those who are newly discovering or even admitting their own gender,
interchanging or blurring the definitions becomes a much bigger point.

It is confusing when the differences are defined in blurred or interchangeable ways.
It does make discovering who you are, your gender, difficult.
For those who are making these discoveries, good for you!
Sometimes I think that is the biggest accomplishment of all. Just knowing who you are.
Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".

Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 24, 2012, 10:30:46 AM
You can indeed go through an androgynous stage that leads you to full transition as a transsexual.
You can indeed be Androgyn and go through a transition that is full in expression.

But they are two different things.
The distinction may seem like too fine a line, but it is not.
It's not a grey area. You may discover that you are one or the other, Androgyne or Transsexual.

I think it's also possible to be both Androgyne and Transsexual simultaneously, they aren't mutually exclusive. Not all TS are binary, there seem to be a growing number of people here who are both/neither.

Quote
Expression becomes a way of saying, "Yes, I am".

Exactly where I am at this point. After many years of knowing and honoring who I am, but not expressing it outwardly via clothing, name, I'm now living openly as Z. Some might call this "transition" or "full time", I prefer to think of it as simply living in full truth of who I am. I have no end goal, other than perhaps achieving happiness. If during this process I decide to medically transition, I don't see that as changing my feeling of being outside binary gender. Of course, the only thing constant in my life is change... so don't quote me on this 

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on September 24, 2012, 12:18:04 PM
I think it's also possible to be both Androgyne and Transsexual simultaneously, they aren't mutually exclusive. Not all TS are binary, there seem to be a growing number of people here who are both/neither.

They seem to be growing the ranks of non-binary. I think there is a distinction, between binary and non-binary.
But I am also finding that distinction to be closer to each other than in the past.
You can fully transition to a binary expression of male or female via all the means possible and still be non-binary.
But that distinction of those individuals is completely up to them. It is their own view of who they are that is their own.
The idea of being able to interchange the two seems to be more like a fluidity in gender that is a part of being non-binary.
It would be a point of discussion, as I have a lot of difficulty in defining binary to myself.
Sometimes I feel like I understand, but just as I do, it seems to slip away.
There would have to be a line that each side defines one or the other, and I don't like that idea.
It goes against the way I think, so defining becomes fuzzy.
My opinions seem to be changing, which is always a good thing, as nothing ever really stays the same.

Ativan