Quote from: Ugla on September 25, 2012, 10:26:34 AM
I know plenty of cisgender women who don't fall into this stereotypical look that a woman must have.

Really? I hear this a lot, but in reality the cis women I see who aren't very clearly female are a handful (in my life).

Quote from: Ave on September 25, 2012, 10:30:33 AM
Really? I hear this a lot, but in reality the cis women I see who aren't very clearly female are a handful (in my life).

Lock them all up, I tell you.

Quote from: Ugla on September 25, 2012, 10:26:34 AM
I hate the fact people need to be "passable" in general. Why do people have to look a certain way to be a woman or a man? I know plenty of cisgender women who don't fall into this stereotypical look that a woman must have.

Maybe because the idea of what someone "should look like" is ridiculous. What about stop trying to enforce those stereotypes? Perhaps we should start there.

I think I agree. And honestly, I also want this type of utopia. But this is asking to undo millions of years of evolutionary programming. Even if you could do it culturally, there's still the problem of deeply ingrained instincts, without which our species would have died out many millennia ago. Ultimately, I suspect we will take the easy route out. Eventually, it will be no harder to change one's appearance than to change the colour of one's hair than to change worldwide attitudes.

Quote from: Ugla on September 25, 2012, 10:26:34 AM
Maybe because the idea of what someone "should look like" is ridiculous. What about stop trying to enforce those stereotypes? Perhaps we should start there.

I have an idea, I pay you to get jaw implants, forehead contouring and take away your HRT, then we see how you feel when everyone is staring and talking about you behind your back and the reflection you see in the mirror is the exact opposite of what you imagine it to be.

This "stereotype" everyone is "enforcing" is based on the science of genetics, no one is enforcing anything, it's just how it is and happens subconciously. The majority of women do not want to be seen as men because they are not men, the same applies to transgender people. Everyone wants to look good and masculinity in a woman is counterproductive to this.

Quote from: 8888 on September 25, 2012, 10:59:07 AM
I have an idea, I pay you to get jaw implants, forehead contouring and take away your HRT, then we see how you feel when everyone is staring and talking about you behind your back and the reflection you see in the mirror is the exact opposite of what you imagine it to be.

This "stereotype" everyone is "enforcing" is based on the science of genetics, no one is enforcing anything, it's just how it is and happens subconciously. The majority of women do not want to be seen as men because they are not men, the same applies to transgender people. Everyone wants to look good and masculinity in a woman is counterproductive to this.

I didn't say that people couldn't take some measures to look the way they want. But I sometimes to question the excessive ways people go just in order to achieve this "100% passable" goal, and then start to badtalk others who don't fit to their standards of "100%" passable.

Quote from: Felicitá on September 25, 2012, 10:58:14 AM
I think I agree. And honestly, I also want this type of utopia. But this is asking to undo millions of years of evolutionary programming. Even if you could do it culturally, there's still the problem of deeply ingrained instincts, without which our species would have died out many millennia ago. Ultimately, I suspect we will take the easy route out. Eventually, it will be no harder to change one's appearance than to change the colour of one's hair than to change worldwide attitudes.

Of course, this is how the society we live in now sees things, and people take different sort of measures into achieving the look they want. But I sometimes question how far people actually go with it, and if talking down to people who don't do the same really achieves something good?

I don't understand why facial surgery is always only talked about in the context of passability. Passing had nothing to do with my facial surgery. It had to do with not wanting to die when I looked in the mirror. And fyi, success!

Feeling comfortable in my own skin has always been my priority with any body modification I've done. And I'm actually kind of not-okay with the suggestion that I'm altering my body in order to achieve someone else's ideal of beauty. I'm altering my body to achieve MY ideal of beauty, thanks much. And I don't much care where that ideal came from. Taking control of my body has been pretty much the most positive experience I've had in my life.

For me this whole transition malarkey has been about my dysphoria, but I guess other folks have different priorities.

Quote from: Dahlia on September 25, 2012, 09:48:08 AM
Glad you said that...MTF  on the internet who claim to be 100% passable as  woman are usually not (at all) but are shouting down (in a weird, fake voice...) but they are passable as MTF..

Talking about other MTF 'losing touch on reality'....

First things first.

1. I do not have a fake voice. I worked my ass off to get my voice to the point where it is. I have never heard your voice nor do I care to. I am not hear to judge anyone based on their looks or how they talk or how girly girly they are. I stated be careful to assume FFS can cure all your woes because FFS (like SRS) can help but it isn't the answer to everything and people must be ready to understand that some self identity issues will not dissolve from plastic surgery. If you read my thread you will get this. You are more than welcome to disagree with me and I expect people will disagree with me...hence why it's a discussion. But making fun of someone because you disagree with them is childish.

2. Exercise wisdom before telling a fulltime transgender girl they do not pass. I do not know you nor do I have any desire to know you. However, what I do care about is you coming on these forums and telling someone they don't pass. Quite frankly, that's a piss poor thing to say to anyone. I don't care how one thinks about another transgender person. Telling a transgender person they don't pass (when the girl never asked for your advice) is probably one of the most destructive thing you can say to a transgender person who is making it out there fulltime on RLE. Think before you post.

3. I stated I pass 100%. This does not mean that I am YOUR VERSION of the perfect female facial construct. It means, to me, I have not been outed in the last two years, I haven't had any weird stares, I haven't had any odd questions asked of me. Me saying I pass was not a merit badge of bragging rights. It was me saying that I am comfortable enough in my own body where I have not been outed and I do not feel the need for FFS. Did this mean I believe my personal views about FFS should be adhered to? No. I was giving my opinion.

Was I condemning FFS? No. Was I putting down people who have a harder time passing? No. If you think that, I encourage you to look through my posts here. I do not put other transgender people down  for their looks or how they talk nor do I say crap that could push a transgender off to a suicidal mode. Yes, telling a tgirl they don't pass when they did not ask for can really hurt them.

Think before you type.

Hi friends 

Time for you all to settle down a bit and find something constructive to do with yourselves

Topic locked

Thank you

V M

I have unlocked the topic

Let's make sure to stay on topic and not venture into making posts that could be construed as hurtful and/or personally attacking

Thank you

V M

Quote from: V M on September 27, 2012, 07:29:01 PM
I have unlocked the topic

Let's make sure to stay on topic and not venture into making posts that could be construed as hurtful and/or personally attacking

Thank you

V M

After reading this thread, I couldn't agree more; ladies can be so mean to each other, sometimes. As for the original question, you probably won't need FFS to look like a normal biological woman if you're only 20. I know a trans firefighter (Yes, you read right, FIREFIGHTER) who looks like a flipping princess. Being a firefighter, she never wears make-up. She transitioned when she was 22. Good luck to you.

Quote from: Ugla on September 24, 2012, 06:07:55 AM
I have to disagree with this. In my opinion, not all transgendered women need to have FSS to "pass." Alot of transgendered women I know don't even use make-up and have never had any FSS and they appear to me nothing else than a woman. Which is the point. You don't need any of this to be what you are. But of course, I respect those who feel like they need to and want to do it. That is perfectly fine. But I don't think people should be pressured into looking a certain way to "pass" as a woman. If you are a woman, you are a woman, no matter how many FFS you've had or how much make-up you put on. Saying all transgendered woman need it is so enforcing those stereotypes on what a woman should look like, and I don't think that's right at all.

But that is just my opinion.

This times 3. I could post DOZENS of pictures on this forum of some natal females I know and ask "will I ever pass?" and be told how much FFS I would need before I ever stood a chance of passing.  When you're out in public, notice how many women have some brow bossing. How many good looking women have a "manly jawline".

That said I did have my nose done and am glad I did. I never likely my nose as a guy and it looked wrong on a woman. I don't think starting HRT at a young age would have fixed my nose, it wasn't pretty when I was a child.

And I don't need the people on some online forum to decide if "I pass" or not, especially when they try to use it as a tool of hatred to win some silly online squabble. When you live full time, it's pretty apparent if you do or not. Being a women is a lot more than what someone looks like in a posted picture that may or may not be photoshopped. The abuse and hatred some people show towards other transpeople is simple disgusting.

BTW Annah, you do have a very pretty voice!

Quote from: Stephe on September 28, 2012, 02:07:50 PM
This times 3. I could post DOZENS of pictures on this forum of some natal females I know and ask "will I ever pass?" and be told how much FFS I would need before I ever stood a chance of passing.  When you're out in public, notice how many women have some brow bossing. How many good looking women have a "manly jawline".

That said I did have my nose done and am glad I did. I never likely my nose as a guy and it looked wrong on a woman. I don't think starting HRT at a young age would have fixed my nose, it wasn't pretty when I was a child.

And I don't need the people on some online forum to decide if "I pass" or not, especially when they try to use it as a tool of hatred to win some silly online squabble. When you live full time, it's pretty apparent if you do or not. Being a women is a lot more than what someone looks like in a posted picture that may or may not be photoshopped. The abuse and hatred some people show towards other transpeople is simple disgusting.

BTW Annah, you do have a very pretty voice!

This ^^^ is absolutely truth. We had many thread in which people posted pictures of cis females that did not pass  :laugh

Quote from: Stephe on September 28, 2012, 02:07:50 PM
This times 3. I could post DOZENS of pictures on this forum of some natal females I know and ask "will I ever pass?" and be told how much FFS I would need before I ever stood a chance of passing.  When you're out in public, notice how many women have some brow bossing. How many good looking women have a "manly jawline".

That said I did have my nose done and am glad I did. I never likely my nose as a guy and it looked wrong on a woman. I don't think starting HRT at a young age would have fixed my nose, it wasn't pretty when I was a child.

And I don't need the people on some online forum to decide if "I pass" or not, especially when they try to use it as a tool of hatred to win some silly online squabble. When you live full time, it's pretty apparent if you do or not. Being a women is a lot more than what someone looks like in a posted picture that may or may not be photoshopped. The abuse and hatred some people show towards other transpeople is simple disgusting.

BTW Annah, you do have a very pretty voice!

Emphasis on these 2.

I cringed when I saw that comment.

Agreed Annah is gorgeous, and sounds amazing.

Thank you. That means a lot to me

It's nonsense to say every transwoman needs FFS. Some will look female just by natural variation, just as some cisgender women have manly features. It pays to pick the right parents! You are less likely to need FFS or need less surgery the quicker you get on HRT. If have loving and supportive parents who put you on the expensive puberty blocker Lupron, you can look and sound stunning like famous teenage transgirls or the 2012 Miss Canada contestant. http://en.rocketnews24.com/2012/07/24/male-to-female-in-14-months-series-of-photos-document-transgender-girls-amazing-transformation/ has one gals stunning 14 month transformation on just HRT. It says there are other YouTube videos showing similar results with other gals. I haven't seen other photos of Annah or heard her, but I don't know how anyone can think she looks anything but a pretty lady!

There is no doubt that if you can afford to get FFS early on in life it will do wonders for you, but I believe you need to be on Hormones for at least 18 months to see the effects before you make plans and spend your funds, when for instance Cheek Implants may not be necessary as the Estrogen may work its magic and round out your face.

When I first transitioned, FFS was only available to the very rich and way beyond my financial capacity, mind you whilst not 100% passable, because I have no Adams Apple, very smalll feet and tiny hands and thin and slender arms and I really worked on getting my makeup right (I had lots of beauty treatmets and make -up lessons from beauty therapists and girl friends) I generally pass pretty convincingly and have only been outed ionce or twice. Remember this was all before we had the Web or Internet, plus I took deportment lessons, worked on my poise and tried as much as possible to take any and all advice , I for the most part pased very well.

I also sing and luckily have a wide range. I can sing Alto down to Baritone and whilst I have to work back on my voice, its something reasonably naturally to me.
In fact I lived full time for a year. My big problem and even now is I have Male pattern Baldness, even with the HRT, I have lost a lot so for me its Wigs are the only optrion.

One very important thing though is to make sure you start early on a beauty regime. Remember every morning and every night. Cleanse, tone and moisturise, weekly do a face mask, then exfoliate and moisturise again.

Right now  I am back getting my upper lip treated this time with IPL. I have probably had over 200 hrs of Electrolysis over the years and am pretty hair free on my neck and chin, but the upper lip has always ben resistant. Luckily now we have IPL which has come in leaps and bounds. I met my new beauty therapist yesterday and after the consultation for IPL on the upper lip she commented on how good my skin looked and asked me old I was. I asked to guess. She said mid 40's. She was suprised when I said add 18 years.  thats what the beauty regime and 2.8 years of HRT in ones early 30s does for you, and even I started late.

I envy you young people with the ability to grow your hair long.

For the person who posted about Annah's face and voice. I totally disagree. I have watched and listened to Annah and I think she sounds wonderful and looks really beautiful. I just wish I had had the courage  to be as strong as her in my late 30s to carry through with the transition.

Whilst she and I have differed on some post threads, I really believe she is a wonderful person and committed Christian as well. One day I hope we will meet. I also love her choice in music. In fact I have now downloaded 4 Mediaeval Baebes albums!!

Hugs
JudithLynn

Quote from: Ave on September 24, 2012, 12:43:54 PM
oh yea, sysm29 had a whole big post about it. Can we provide a link or is that shady..?

In fact, searching a bit shows that she had several threads prior to the FFS which looked like the calm preceding the storm. A situation that I was planning on repeating (BDD is the worst b*tch). In the end it made me think about what I really need (brow, forehead, nose makes me look like a neandhertal) and what could be a wrong idea.

But for now, I try to live by "breath deeply, relax and work on other things. There will be time for FFS and pain".