Hello, everyone!

This is my first post here on Susans.  I am dating an awesome transman who is a poster here, and it is going absolutely fabulously.  He is 7.5 months on T, and I think he looks very manly.  He passes in everyday life (we live with roommates, and he is stealth to all of them), but for whatever reason, he isn't passing in queer spaces (people read him as a butch lesbian).  We are members of a local gay chorus, and even though members know him as my boyfriend (I joined before him, and he joined after he started his transition, so nobody there ever knew him as anything other than male), some will say to us, "Hi, ladies."  We were performing at our community's pride festivities with the chorus today, and all of the vendors clocked him as female.  I know it "comes with the territory," so to speak, but I also know that it really bums him out.  I felt like we couldn't even enjoy the day today because people are so disrespectful of the "T" in LGBTQ.  I want to be there for my boyfriend, but I don't really know what I can do.  Does anyone have any advice?  I just want to be there to support him in the best way possible.

It's happening not because they are being disrespectful of his identity but more likely that they are reading him as a butch female.  I am sure the chorus is important to you guys, but I feel it would be best to re-evaluate whether you guys want to work with the chorus/be in queer spaces vs not be in queer spaces.  It's just a fact that trans people are more likely to get read/misgendered when in queer spaces.  That's one of the several reasons I stay away from them.

Quote from: TessaM on October 06, 2012, 09:42:30 PM
Well your in a "queer" space, and a woman (Im assuming you are) Maybe they assumed you were a Lesbian and when your boyfriend arrived they looked for every female cue they could and made their assumptions from there.

I would have assumed that was the case, too, but I have been very open about my sexuality.  The people in the chorus who don't know my sexuality assume I am straight, and I have also introduced him as my boyfriend.  I guess that's why I'm so confused about the whole thing.  It makes literally no sense at all.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really do appreciate your response.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around the whole thing.

Quote from: Andy8715 on October 06, 2012, 09:44:12 PM
It's happening not because they are being disrespectful of his identity but more likely that they are reading him as a butch female.  I am sure the chorus is important to you guys, but I feel it would be best to re-evaluate whether you guys want to work with the chorus/be in queer spaces vs not be in queer spaces.  It's just a fact that trans people are more likely to get read/misgendered when in queer spaces.  That's one of the several reasons I stay away from them.

Yeah, we recently have been discussing leaving the chorus.  We are moving to a new area in December, so it won't really be an issue after that.  It's just really disheartening that it's happening right now, and I don't know how to help.  Thanks for your response!

Quote from: tomorrowbroadway on October 06, 2012, 09:49:59 PM
I would have assumed that was the case, too, but I have been very open about my sexuality.  The people in the chorus who don't know my sexuality assume I am straight, and I have also introduced him as my boyfriend.  I guess that's why I'm so confused about the whole thing.  It makes literally no sense at all.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I really do appreciate your response.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around the whole thing.

I don't understand. Why would they assume you are straight if you are in a gay chorus? I assume everyone in a queer space is queer until proven otherwise.

Maybe they just missed the boyfriend part? Has he tried to correct someone who misgendered him? That's kind of the only solution in a space where you aren't passing. Or not being in that space.

Intentional disrespect does not usually take the form of a casual "hi, ladies." Unless their tone of voice is particularly hostile, they just haven't got a clue that they are doing something wrong.

Yea, I always get misgendered to the extremes at times in queer spaces. Went to a gay bar and got kicked out and bothered about using the men's bathroom. Pride, everywhere! In fact, queer spaces are the spaces where I'm clearly misgendered the most. I think it's mostly because gay and lesbian folks usually don't think about trans people.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 06, 2012, 10:16:58 PM
I think it's mostly because gay and lesbian folks usually don't think about trans people.

Got it in one. 

I would say they think about us as little as possible.

We have just been through an unsuccessful campaign for marriage equality here in Tasmania, and one of the leading gay activists made it pretty clear that Trans and Intersex people were not even considered.   Even though the partner of an undiagnosed Intersex person can apply for an annulment of their marriage on the grounds they are not fully male or female, against the wishes of the Intersex spouse.

Happened to a close friend a few years ago, so it is not an urban myth.

Karen.

I definitely think that some of it has to do with gay people not acknowledging the trans people as much (although I know a lot of a gay people and I think maybe some of that is changing a little) and then the other part has to do with other trans people being hyper aware of other potential trans people. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just mean that we all seem to be really hyper critical of "passing" and really intensely look out for "clues". In the OP's situation though I think it's just more the gay people not being as aware thing combined with the fact of, girl in gay choir = people assume she's gay = people assume her partner is also female (and that would most likely mean butch lesbian to them).

Quote from: justmeinoz on October 07, 2012, 01:20:09 AM
Got it in one. 

I would say they think about us as little as possible.

We have just been through an unsuccessful campaign for marriage equality here in Tasmania, and one of the leading gay activists made it pretty clear that Trans and Intersex people were not even considered.   Even though the partner of an undiagnosed Intersex person can apply for an annulment of their marriage on the grounds they are not fully male or female, against the wishes of the Intersex spouse.

Happened to a close friend a few years ago, so it is not an urban myth.

Karen.

Worse than that Sis. I've been married for 30 years, when I get surgery and have my gender marker changed my marriage is automatically annulled. I don't want it and my wife doesn't want it.

Quote from: Cindy James on October 07, 2012, 02:55:11 AM
Worse than that Sis. I've been married for 30 years, when I get surgery and have my gender marker changed my marriage is automatically annulled. I don't want it and my wife doesn't want it.

It's so sad. Your marriage will be automatically annulled in Sweden too. It's a sad world to live in

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on October 07, 2012, 03:33:52 AM
It's so sad. Your marriage will be automatically annulled in Sweden too. It's a sad world to live in

Hugs,

But a Kim Kardishan like character can marry a man for money and probably for a TV show and it's legal.

Something is wrong.

Quote from: Cindy James on October 07, 2012, 02:55:11 AM
Worse than that Sis. I've been married for 30 years, when I get surgery and have my gender marker changed my marriage is automatically annulled. I don't want it and my wife doesn't want it.

Am sorry about that Cindy, I really find things like that just plain sick.

As for being read, its could be that in queer spaces things get extremely confusing and people don't bother to think twice about trans folk.

It may happen unintentionally and without any ill feelings intended - the other that I did a really horrible thing that I am finding it difficult to accept and get used to, there is a guy/girl who is either a pre-HRT trans-guy or a butch lesbian/bisexual. Anyways my bff and I were talking and I/we may have said something to out her and I have been trying to apologize ever since but he/she has been avoiding me like plague and I can't blame him/her. It's not that I did on purpose or with hostility. It just happened. Maybe its just that my own radar has been fine tuned to both myself and my surroundings - which can be helpfull if I am around people who are obviously hostile. I cried like mad when I realized what I had done.

I know and have no doubt that something similar would happen to me and I am sure I have been read by several of the gay/lesbian folk in my office/place where I live.

And to be honest until she/he clears how she views herself/himself to me I am never going to know how am that person wants to be gendered as.
So when things like this happen its important to make it clear to the other person about how they need to address you.
Hence, when things like that its important for your boyfriend to make it clear not just for his own sanity and self-respect but for the other person as well.

Although during HRT it can be a real bummer to be clocked, and if that person was on HRT I would have addressed that person as him/his. But for all I know is that my radar could be broken and that person could have been straight.

I have made it clear to my bff and my close friend that I want to be addressed as female even if I don't pass or am not out to anyone (I no longer care what others think of me being trans). But that's the only way to get the ball rolling if you find yourself in a place where you can get clocked easily or people who know you from before.

am sorry if what I did offends people here but am not proud of it and already hate myself for it.

Quote from: Cindy James on October 07, 2012, 02:55:11 AM
Worse than that Sis. I've been married for 30 years, when I get surgery and have my gender marker changed my marriage is automatically annulled. I don't want it and my wife doesn't want it.

That's why I am not in much of a hurry to change my sex and gender markers legally. I'd like to stay married to my husband.

As for being misgendered in queer spaces, it could be a few things. If it is a gay chorus, they may just assume that your boyfriend is a very butch woman. I have more problems with being misgendered when talking to queer folks, with the exception of trans people. The only time people have intentionally misgendered me has been in queer spaces. Most other times it is typically an accident. I wish I had some advice to give. I'm glad he has you to support him though.

To echo what a lot of others have said, a straight couple in a gay choir is probably messing with their heads. Me and my cis-male partner often get read as lesbians even outside of queer spaces and it's really confusing to me. Even when my other half is sporting a full beard we'll hear "hello ladies what can I get you" when we go out to eat. It's really weird 

Gay men often refer to each other as ladies and bitches and other female terms.  I didn't know this until I started dating my gay partner and hanging out with other gay men.

So it is possible they aren't misgendering him, but just fooling around.

Edit: never mind; I thought the OP was a gay male, as why would a straight couple belong to a gay chorus?  On reread it seems like the OP is F?


Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on October 07, 2012, 08:28:40 AM
Gay men often refer to each other as ladies and bitches and other female terms.  I didn't know this until I started dating my gay partner and hanging out with other gay men.

So it is possible they aren't misgendering him, but just fooling around.

Edit: never mind; I thought the OP was a gay male, as why would a straight couple belong to a gay chorus?  On reread it seems like the OP is F?


Jay

It's mostly our straight female allies that are misgendering him, so it's not the typical gay male use of the word.  That, we understand.  I present as female, and my boyfriend obviously presents as male, but neither or us is straight (we both identify as queer), and the people misgendering him know about all of this.  He has literally never been misgendered by anybody who wasn't introduced to him by first name and as my boyfriend.  It makes very little sense.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 06, 2012, 10:12:34 PM
I don't understand. Why would they assume you are straight if you are in a gay chorus? I assume everyone in a queer space is queer until proven otherwise.

Maybe they just missed the boyfriend part? Has he tried to correct someone who misgendered him? That's kind of the only solution in a space where you aren't passing. Or not being in that space.

Intentional disrespect does not usually take the form of a casual "hi, ladies." Unless their tone of voice is particularly hostile, they just haven't got a clue that they are doing something wrong.

We have a lot of straight female members, and so I guess they assume that unless they have seen you with a woman that you are straight.  We have both corrected those who misgender him, but they don't seem to remember.  It's tough.  We will be leaving the space in December, but until then, I don't know what to do.

I was misgendered by people I hired for a job, who only knew me as "Male Name'  I heard them call me 'she' twice when discussing stuff regarding the job and me.  It was very weird.  I am also 4.5 years on T and sport a decent beard.


Jay