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GLBT should not hate Christians, Nor should Christians Hate GLBT

Started by ShawnTOShawnna, May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM

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SarahM777

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM
Realistically speaking, no one should hate anyone, that's a given. When it comes to complex institutionalized superstition (like religion) though, it gets tricky. Hate is, in my opinion, a cross product of ignorance. At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.


Is hate really a product of ignorance or is it a product of a person being different and it can't be accepted? Is it a product of putting people into boxes and appling the same stereotypes to the whole group? Can one really hate if people are seen on an individual basis and not as a group? Can one really hate if a person is seen as having worth and value,even when one disagrees?

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.


Is that based on fact or opinion?

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

What is known (quantifiable) though, is the less religious a person is, (and the higher educated they become) the more liberal and accepting they are of differences in lifestyles. In short, for the hatred to go, people just need to be better access to (quality) higher education, everything else will sort itself out naturally :)


Does having a higher education actually translate to less hate,or does history show that many highly intelligent and educated people were at the root of some of the world's greatest atrocities?
If that is the case then it is more likely the hate was already there to begin with and has far less to do with intelligence or education. The question that should be asked is it a matter of the head or the heart? If it is a matter of the heart then no amount of intelligence or education will change it. They will only shape it.

Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Shang

Quote from: DianaP on October 05, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
But by that logic, the fact that things change could have changed so that things no longer adjust. Thus, making it impossible for things to go back to the way they were since the rule about things changing changed to make a concretely ruled universe a long time ago. So for all we know, there are 100% certainties in the universe now.

Sorry, i couldn't resist.  :P

Of course, you can believe what ever you want. :)

But we don't know that there are 100% certainties so we're not certain about it.  Until we know that there are 100% certainties, then there aren't for us.  Some other critter out there might know it and hopefully they'd get their a**es here to enlighten us folks who don't know what they know.

I'd be all for finding out that there are 100% certainties.  I'd also be all for finding out that anything supernatural is all bunk and I'd also be all for finding out that there are supernatural happenings out there that are quite real and provable. 

I'm mostly just for learning regardless of what that learning is.

@ Isabelle:

Just because some definitions make it seem like one has to be "closed-minded" or "ignorant" to follow it doesn't mean that there aren't religions [or spiritualities] out there that thrive on people being unique and thrive on there being different lifestyles and encourage people to learn about the world around them.  A lot of New Age religions or beliefs thrive on diversity and encourage people to learn.  A lot don't, but a lot do as well.
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Elsa

Sometimes despite being well educated and aware of current happening etc.

people can still choose to be ignorant and close-minded.

It's sad but people can always try to understand the other person's POV but when they are not interested there is just plain rejection of everything and anything that we have to say.

I know a lot of people who despite being well educated and aware of current events, etc who are very homophobic and would use everything including religion to justify their stand and when your reasoning is better than their they would just close their ears and tell you using 2 famous words to go some place else.

People can always make an attempt they can try they can be moved by a helpfull gesture but still reject you for who you are and everything you have to say.
Sometimes when life is a fight - we just have to fight back and say screw you - I want to live.

Sometimes we just need to believe.
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peky

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 06, 2012, 10:26:22 AM
1) Is hate really a product of ignorance or is it a product of a person being different and it can't be accepted?

2) Does having a higher education actually translate to less hate,or does history show that many highly intelligent and educated people were at the root of some of the world's greatest atrocities?


1) Hate is the product of fear which in turn is the product of IGNORANCE

2) Having a higher intelligence, specially emotional intelligence, always translates in more tolerance. Having a well round education by virtue of having going to school or by acquiring on your own, again, it translate into more tolerance.

Most of the great atrocities, e.g. crusades, inquisition, Salem which hunts, genocides, were conducted by IGNORANT and RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, people like the Catholic Popes, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc All were people with little education or dominated by their extreme religious beliefs
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SarahM777

Quote from: peky on October 06, 2012, 02:27:28 PM

2) Having a higher intelligence, specially emotional intelligence, always translates in more tolerance. Having a well round education by virtue of having going to school or by acquiring on your own, again, it translate into more tolerance.

Most of the great atrocities, e.g. crusades, inquisition, Salem which hunts, genocides, were conducted by IGNORANT and RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, people like the Catholic Popes, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc All were people with little education or dominated by their extreme religious beliefs

Sorry Peky,but the popes were often the most educated of their day,Stalin,Lenin,and Mao were all born into wealthy families,wealth in those days often meant a much higher education level than the general populous,all had a higher education than the average person of their day. Even Hilter attended University for a time. All were far from ignorant peasants. All could read and write far better than the masses,and used their powers of persuasion and force for their ends.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Shantel

Some of the most well educated people in the world have done some of the most evil deeds, it really just boils down to choices people make! Sometimes a highly educated miscreant is simply more cunning in how he or she goes about their evil deeds.
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peky

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 06, 2012, 04:07:09 PM
Sorry Peky,but the popes were often the most educated of their day,Stalin,Lenin,and Mao were all born into wealthy families,wealth in those days often meant a much higher education level than the general populous,all had a higher education than the average person of their day. Even Hilter attended University for a time. All were far from ignorant peasants. All could read and write far better than the masses,and used their powers of persuasion and force for their ends.

Wrong again:

STALIN:
Beaten by his mother so badly that he pee blood, not the kind of good family, eh?
He never earned any kind of education. "At sixteen, he received a scholarship to a Georgian Orthodox seminary, where he rebelled against the imperialist and religious order. Though he performed well there, he was expelled in 1899 after missing his final exams. The seminary records indicate that his parent were unable to pay the tuition."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

MAO:
Let see, his family: His father, Mao Shun-sheng (1870–?), had been born into a poverty-stricken peasant family, and had gained two years worth of education before joining the army. Eventually returning to agriculture, he earned a living as both a moneylender and a grain merchant" Not really the most enlightened people, right?
School: Mao ever accomplished any kind of education: "Mao enrolled and dropped out of a series of schools in quick succession; a police academy, a soap-production school, a law school and an economics school, the latter being the only course which his father approved of. However, the lectures were given in the English language, which Mao could not understand, and so he soon abandoned this and began attendance at the government-run Changsha Middle School; he soon dropped out of this too, finding its courses too rooted in old Confucian ideas and traditions. Deciding to undertake his studies independently, he spent much time in the newly opened public library at Changsha, reading the core works of classical liberalism such as Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations and Montesquieu's The Spirit of the Laws, as well as the works of western scientists and philosophers like Charles Darwin, J.S. Mill, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Herbert Spencer.[ Seeing no use in his son's purely intellectual pursuits, Mao's father cut off his allowance, forcing Mao to move into a hostel for the destitute."

HITLER:

Hitler barely finished high school: "in September 1900 Alois sent Adolf to the Realschule in Linz.[24] (This was the same high school that Adolf Eichmann would attend some 17 years later.)[25] Hitler rebelled against this decision, and in Mein Kampf revealed that he did poorly in school, hoping that once his father saw "what little progress I was making at the technical school he would let me devote myself to my dream." After Alois' sudden death on 3 January 1903, Hitler's performance at school deteriorated. His mother allowed him to quit in autumn 1905. He enrolled at the Realschule in Steyr in September 1904; his behaviour and performance showed some slight and gradual improvement. In the autumn of 1905, after passing a repeat and the final exam, Hitler left the school without showing any ambitions for further schooling or clear plans for a career. The Academy of Fine Arts Vienna rejected him twice, in 1907 and 1908, because of his "unfitness for painting". The director recommended that Hitler study architecture,[34] but he lacked the academic credentials. On 21 December 1907, his mother died aged 47. After the Academy's second rejection, Hitler ran out of money. In 1909 he lived in a homeless shelter, and by 1910, he had settled into a house for poor working men on Meldemannstraße."

You need to get some Biology 101, and History 101 dear, just a suggestion!
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Incarnadine

What has helped soften my perspective is to consider that every person is capable of every evil, no matter how spiritual or intelligent they look on the outside.  We who hold strong to religious beliefs would do well to consider our own vulnerabilities before we condemn another.  When spiritual leaders make terrible choices, I must realize that I am equally as capable of committing the same crime or sin as it may be defined.  Oftentimes a spirit of condemnation comes from an internal belief that the one who condemns is a better person than the one who is being condemned.

If I had the same mental problems, education, spiritual influences, and rearing as Hitler, would I have made the same decisions that he did?
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peky

Lets compare the three stooges to our Roosevelt, a man so opposite to the uneducated Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, and who by the way never committed any atrocities.

ROOSEVELT:

He grew up with private tutors before attending Groton (1896-1900). He attended Harvard (1900-04) where he was an average student. He then went to Columbia Law School (1904-07), passed the bar, and decided not to stay on to graduate.

So, yeah, perhaps there is something to be said for educated people who hold their religious beliefs at a moderate level

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SarahM777

Quote from: peky on October 06, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
Lets compare the three stooges to our Roosevelt, a man so opposite to the uneducated Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, and who by the way never committed any atrocities.


I was wrong about Mao. But the point that you made was also about self education,which is what each and every single one of them did. Their education was so far from being balanced,they taught themselves along very radical lines that fit in with their mind set. That is not the same as saying they were totally uneducated.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Isabelle

My point was about accsess to quality higher education. Popes were "educated" after a fashion. The question is what was ther primary source? Comparing the modern educated human to the likes of Stalin or Hitler isn't really logical or useful. If we use these two as an argument against education, we are essentially setting a criteria for comparison. That is to say, compare these two bad people with every other educated person. It is a self defeating position.
There are "crazy" extremists in every self identifying group, be it Transsexuals, Muslims, Bankers, Mechanics or Pre-school Teachers. When it comes to supernatural beliefs as a basis of forming views, it becomes dangerous. Yes the vast vast vast majority of any religious group are perfectly normal people however, and it's a BIG however, the moderates provide the fertile soil from which the extremists/fundamentalists spring forth. Without that soil, they would struggle to thrive.
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SarahM777

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
My point was about accsess to quality higher education. Popes were "educated" after a fashion. The question is what was ther primary source? Comparing the modern educated human to the likes of Stalin or Hitler isn't really logical or useful. If we use these two as an argument against education, we are essentially setting a criteria for comparison. That is to say, compare these two bad people with every other educated person. It is a self defeating position.

It is very for any educated person to pull the wool over the uneducated masses,for the popes they had it made doing that. First keep everything in a language that only the priests and those educated in Latin gives one a certain amount of control,mix in superstitions to a superstitious people,tell them that the leader is the voice of God on earth,and whatever the current pope says is as if it is from God,and leave the pope with absoultute authority and power,with no checks and balances to remove a bad pope, and what do you have. The perfect dictatorship. The popes then used that power for greedy gain and control. I just find it had that the popes themselves were ingnorant,they knew what they had set up and used it as a license to do what they wanted all in the name of God.

But I think to say they were uneducated is a misnomer. They did educate themselves along a very narrowly defined path. To take that and say that education is bad is also wrong. They just took the things they learned and applied them in a very evil way.


Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
There are "crazy" extremists in every self identifying group, be it Transsexuals, Muslims, Bankers, Mechanics or Pre-school Teachers. When it comes to supernatural beliefs as a basis of forming views, it becomes dangerous. Yes the vast vast vast majority of any religious group are perfectly normal people however, and it's a BIG however, the moderates provide the fertile soil from which the extremists/fundamentalists spring forth. Without that soil, they would struggle to thrive.

The problem comes when a person is looked at as being part of the extreme even without ever knowing anything about them.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Isabelle

I didn't say popes are uneducated, I said they're educated after a fashion. You and I are actually in agreement. When it comes to extremism, it is my personal opinion that all supernatural beliefs are inherently extreme. That is what qualifies them as supernatural to begin with.
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SarahM777

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 07:51:53 PM
I didn't say popes are uneducated, I said they're educated after a fashion. You and I are actually in agreement. When it comes to extremism, it is my personal opinion that all supernatural beliefs are inherently extreme. That is what qualifies them as supernatural to begin with.

But is it really any more extreme than people believing in the Loch Ness Monster,Sasquatch,Aliens,a different universe,multiple dimensions beyond what we know,etc etc.? Some have claimed to have seen some of these things. Does that in itself make them extreme or is it what they do with it?
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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Isabelle

With the exception of multiple dimensions, no, it's no more extreme than any of the things you list. They are all supernatural beliefs and in my opinion, of equal worth. Multiple dimensions are an entirely separate subject. Their is existence is predicted and in some cases required by various mathematical models.
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SarahM777

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 08:41:53 PM
With the exception of multiple dimensions, no, it's no more extreme than any of the things you list. They are all supernatural beliefs and in my opinion, of equal worth. Multiple dimensions are an entirely separate subject. Their is existence is predicted and in some cases required by various mathematical models.

You are right multiple dimensions should exist by the mathematics,but they still have to be taken by a certain amount of faith,because they cannot be seen,but are proven by inference,predictable patterns
etc but can not be proven by direct observation of smell,sight,sound,taste,or touch.
Answers are easy. It's asking the right questions which is hard.

Be positive in the fact that there is always one person in a worse situation then you.

The Fourth Doctor
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justmeinoz

I don't hate any Christians, I just don't like what some of them do or say.  A fair percentage of them however seem to have it in for me, even though they have not met me.  A bit like Ghandi being asked what he thought of European Civilisation, his reply being that he thought it would be a good idea.  Christian Churches ditto.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Shantel

Quote from: justmeinoz on October 07, 2012, 06:30:15 AM
I don't hate any Christians, I just don't like what some of them do or say.  A fair percentage of them however seem to have it in for me, even though they have not met me.  A bit like Ghandi being asked what he thought of European Civilisation, his reply being that he thought it would be a good idea.  Christian Churches ditto.

I am inclined to have similar thoughts and unfortunately it isn't meant to be a reflection on Christ, but it does seem as if more than a few of His wannabe Christian followers got His message wrong and expend an inordinate amount of time and energy casting stones at those they feel are less than worthy of His love for humankind. My thought here is that in any garden you will have some beautiful flowers along with weeds, thorns and thistles. This then is a perfect analogy of the church as it is today. Sadly those rock throwing thorny types give Jesus a black eye in the view of many, with certainty they will have to account for it one day. Hopefully there are those who have been scorned by these prickly types that will be able to look beyond those events and realize that Christ Himself was so scorned by the religious right in His day. It's just a part of the human condition, He knew it and forged ahead in spite of it and so should we all!
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Isabelle

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 07, 2012, 06:21:24 AM
You are right multiple dimensions should exist by the mathematics,but they still have to be taken by a certain amount of faith,because they cannot be seen,but are proven by inference,predictable patterns
etc but can not be proven by direct observation of smell,sight,sound,taste,or touch.

No "faith" is required. The thing about mathematical models that predict or require extra dimensions  (like the various string theories) is this, they are a model of "a universe" not necessarily "our" universe. The search continues for the model that best describes and predicts observable phenomena. When it is found (if its possible to find) it will be repeatable, independently verifiable and it will withstand peer review. It's like the Laws of Thermodynamics, we don't take them based on faith, we utilize them based on evidence.
Back on topic...
Studies have shown that people who believe in gods often feel their opinions are in line with their deities. When these opinions are manipulated in a controlled fashion (like in a psychology experiment) to encourage a change in opinion, the opinion of their deities change too.
These studies are interesting because we are left with a few possible ways of deciding what this all means. The two I find most useful are;

1- A persons deity notifies them in advance of their intention to change their point of view, effectively meaning, the person thinks something before their god does.

2- A person uses the idea of a god/deity/etc as a way to bolster their own opinion. Put simply, they make what their god thinks as they go because, their god is made up.

Both of these options make hate quite possible.
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tekla

I love how this is presented in the title as some sort of equality.  It ain't.  There is a clear majority persecuting a clearly visible minority.  The 'hate' is all one sided.  I sure don't see any LGBT people trying to stop Xians from living their life, worshiping in their way, or trying to stop their sex-fueled hetro marriages.  So don't present it as some sort of 'well both sides' deal.  It's not.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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