Quote from: Katia on May 14, 2007, 11:00:17 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM


Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.

you are too funny.  doesn't work with me though.

Here is 50 cents,
call someone who cares

Quote from: Kristi on May 14, 2007, 11:00:28 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Based on your avatar, I would say they are right, is that your hair?

Sure it's mine.  I bought it. 

Kristi

Well, it looks beautiful, you look beautiful. I am tired of talking anatomy but very few mid-late transitioners do not need a scalp advancement.

Quote from: Keira on May 14, 2007, 05:45:48 PM
I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works; that's saying that almost everybody need it to pass.

I have no need to change my face.  It's a very nice face.  It looks like a combination of my mother's and father's faces.  What I find incompresensible is when I have told the few about what I am, the first thing out of their mouths is, "I never would have guessed.  The surgeon did a good job."  What is this about our society that jumps straight to a hypothetical surgeon?

Quote from: Katia on May 14, 2007, 11:00:17 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 10:57:08 PM
Then just use the scroll button, I am not the one who turned the thread into an FFS discussion.

you are too funny.  doesn't work with me though.

Amen.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 14, 2007, 11:12:03 PM
I am tired of talking anatomy but very few mid-late transitioners do not need a scalp advancement.

Some people, like me, get by with creative hair arranging.  I remember one night when I was standing at the bar in the TownHouse chatting with a guy, and a woman behind me pulled my hair just to see if it was real.  Ouch.  That wasn't very nice of her.

Quote from: Keira on May 14, 2007, 05:45:48 PM

I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works; that's saying that almost everybody need it to pass. What he's doing is beyond passing and veers into something else. Most women have a masculine facial trait and removing all of them is overkill and playing up to TS's insecurities.

Not to mention the whole esthetics thing, there are standards of beauty in plastic surgery and O veers off from them to create a wholy hyper-feminine face that corresponds to his own esthetic views. The most esthetically pleasant face is not necessarily the most extreme form of feminine face.

Just in my support group in montreal I'd say that only 1 really needs a lot of surgery to make her life as a women easier. In the others, almost none has substantial bossing, a big nose, a strong jaw or strong chin. They need at most some burring to smooth angles and a rhino (There are dozens of excellent doctors who do rhinos) Brassard, Z and several others do this kind of light work). The older women often would most benefit from a lip lift and plumper lips (not angelina jolie size though!). The fun thing with light work is that it can easily be done piecewise and recovery is usually quicker.

All those in the group would look better with a tweak, but none need a buldozer to "fix" them.

Keira in short order you basically described my problems with Dr. O and "the works" better than I could. 

Also Kristi wears a wig.  Some girls its a no choice thing.  I am in that same boat, even at 28.  Plus I rather look bookish then beautiful. 

Well beauty would be going a bit far ....

But I sure do look a lot prettier than I used to    !!!!

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg  (1 year hrt)

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/changes06min.jpg  (2 year hrt  )

No surgery yet (well besides SRS) !

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 15, 2007, 07:44:18 PM
Well beauty would be going a bit far ....

But I sure do look a lot prettier than I used to    !!!!

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Before_and_After.jpg  (1 year hrt)

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/changes06min.jpg  (2 year hrt  )

No surgery yet (well besides SRS) !

Laura x

The metamorphosis is unbelievable, Laura.  I'd say that estrogen is your friend welcome to Susan's!

tink

Yeah good old estrogen :-), it is, I was considered a pretty good looking man (except I didn't care!!) but everybody says I look even better as a woman (which is always good to hear and I do care about that :-). I just love the extra fat its put on my face and between E and retin-A my complexion is 10000 times better than before and I have 1/10 the wrinkles! I look 10 years younger; they all think I'm 30 (Oh I wish I was..) This is yesterday.



Before I loathed my long thin neck (6 inch from collar bone to ear, only 13 inch around!!) with my big honking head on top (23 inch!!), now I kinda like it. I look like like ET's sister ;-).

My profile has changed so much, and I like it even more than my front view, between HRT and rhino-brow bossing, that's its hard to believe that anyone could mistake me for a man before... ;-). Of course, they were always mistaken in identifying me that way; I just didn't have the courage to tell them.

Laura, the "pre" pictures of you are absolutely painful.  I mean, I can see the agony behind the eyes.  And those more recent of you display the very vibrance of life. Not only are the physical changes remarkable, but your happiness shines through every pixel on my screen.

Keira, I think that a long neck is a very feminine feature.  Mine is a short stub!  I don't complain about it much... for it is better than having no neck!  I too wonder how anyone could mistake you for male.

And Tink... well, you are just a natural beauty all around.  The world is a much better place with you in it.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 15, 2007, 11:53:46 PM

And Tink... well, you are just a natural beauty all around.  The world is a much better place with you in it.

Cindi

yep shes hot.  a princes 

Quote

I totally disagree that almost everyone "needs" the works;

Keira in short order you basically described my problems with Dr. O and "the works" better than I could. 

Also Kristi wears a wig.  Some girls its a no choice thing.  I am in that same boat, even at 28.  . 

It's not "a no-choice thing" There is surgical help available for that too. Wearing a wig is an absolute dead giveaway. I am not into being a reasonable of facsimile of a woman. I am at Ground Zero as far as trans-awareness goes, the Tenderloin of San Francisco, the standard for "passing" is higher here than  it is anywhere else in the world. However, the way it is here may be the way it is everywhere 20 years from now,so one might consider that when planning for what one needs.

I did all this in my fifties, if I were in my twenties, I damn sure would make a plan to ensure that I would be read as female anywhere, anytime.

Then again, most seem to think that they will never be able to afford to pay for SRS. That is a negative mindset that only becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I have this real crazy attitude that I can get anything I want if I decide that I want it bad enough.

I showed my therapist my old passport photo yesterday and my new one and she was shocked by the change , she said no one would ever believe these were the same two people.

Quote from: Keira on May 15, 2007, 10:08:00 PM
Yeah good old estrogen :-), it is, I was considered a pretty good looking man (except I didn't care!!) but everybody says I look even better as a woman (which is always good to hear and I do care about that :-). I just love the extra fat its put on my face and between E and retin-A my complexion is 10000 times better than before and I have 1/10 the wrinkles! I look 10 years younger; they all think I'm 30 (Oh I wish I was..) This is yesterday.



Before I loathed my long thin neck (6 inch from collar bone to ear, only 13 inch around!!) with my big honking head on top (23 inch!!), now I kinda like it. I look like like ET's sister ;-).

My profile has changed so much, and I like it even more than my front view, between HRT and rhino-brow bossing, that's its hard to believe that anyone could mistake me for a man before... ;-). Of course, they were always mistaken in identifying me that way; I just didn't have the courage to tell them.

Hehehehe I have this weird fetish with the whole neckline area (and eyes, I'm big on the eyes... lol)... it's like my "make or break" area....

You look to have a very feminine neckline, and all-around feminine features in general.... I think you're beautiful



....And, for the record, TINK YOU ARE SOOOOOOO CUTE!!!! LOL

*and, off she goes!* Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....

No.

No, I'm not beautiful. Steph and Cindi are, but I am not. But it is not a concern.

I would however say that I am attractive and actually, sexy.

--The [continuing] DIY electro has done wonders for my face and skin.

--HRT has had a nearly miraculous feminizing effect on the body in general.

--I'm athletic and very fastidious about my diet.

--I use skin moisturizer regularly.

--I use 'dermabrasion' with outstanding effect on my facial skin.

--Some facial plastic surgery has been accomplished, vastly improving appearance.

--My style of movement is ballet-like and graceful. Controlled.

--I smile and laugh much more now than I ever have, in over 50 years of life.

And do you know what Katia?  I started to cry, as I wrote that last statement....

There were far too many years, girl....

Well, considering I never liked the body I have now, the answer is no . I don't find myself beautiful (not that I don't think men are beautiful. They are. Its just I was not meant to be one). But I love myself for what I am inside, and try to make my outward appearance look as much as what I feel It should be, and one day hope that I will have a body that completely matches up with my gender. That day is far off, since I can only dream of affording surgery at this time, but I'm ready to start hormone therapy and other presurgery therapies, and atleast get half way to my goal for now ^_^

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 16, 2007, 07:18:23 AM

Quote
Also Kristi wears a wig.  Some girls its a no choice thing.  I am in that same boat, even at 28.  . 

It's not "a no-choice thing" There is surgical help available for that too. Wearing a wig is an absolute dead giveaway. I am not into being a reasonable of facsimile of a woman.

Well Melissa, thanks so very much for enlightening us.  I guess I never realized that every time I go out it is a dead giveaway.  Apparently when I leave my house only stupid people congregate around me.  And it IS a no-choice thing.  At least for me.  I truly wish it were not so, but it is.  Please don't make assumptions and blanket statements like this unless you know someone's whole story, medical history, and goals.

From the dead giveway,
Kristi

While I don't condone blanket statments, I do a agree that wigs can often be a giveway; in Brassard's office, I could spot 2 right away out of 6 TS there (there may be others I didn't see, so some are indeed hard to spot). Although, I admit that context made discovering those easier (since I know many older TS do wear them).

Its the style, too dense hair, uniformity of color (which gives a unatural sheen) and too perfect hair at all time, not quite natural movement, color and reflectivity in daylight. I would agree that most people don't pay that much attention to the hair of the person in front of them so in most cases all of this really doesn't matter and nobody will know.

All of this can be taken care off if you're willing to pick a top quality wig and have it cut to suit your face; reducing density by having the wig layered almost always a good thing, almost nobody over 50 has the extra dense hair most wigs have.

My aunt is on quasi continuous chemo and has no hair and her wing is very very good even at close range.  So, its very possible to get a very good wig that's unnoticeable, yet not everybody gets one for whatever reasons.

Also, I do agree that its not always possible to fix baldness through medical means yet so you have a female like density. They can somewhat restore a male like density.... But that's not what were looking for.

Very soon, with hair cloning (they are experimenting this right now), maybe it will be possible for everyone to get dense hair.

Quote from: Keira on May 21, 2007, 11:04:50 PM

While I don't condone blanket statments, I do a agree that wigs can often be a giveway; in Brassard's office, I could spot 2 right away out of 6 TS there (there may be others I didn't see, so some are indeed hard to spot). Although, I admit that context made discovering those easier (since I know many older TS do wear them).

Its the style, too dense hair, uniformity of color (which gives a unatural sheen) and too perfect hair at all time, not quite natural movement, color and reflectivity in daylight. I would agree that most people don't pay that much attention to the hair of the person in front of them so in most cases all of this really doesn't matter and nobody will know.

All of this can be taken care off if you're willing to pick a top quality wig and have it cut to suit your face; reducing density by having the wig layered almost always a good thing, almost nobody over 50 has the extra dense hair most wigs have.

My aunt is on quasi continuous chemo and has no hair and her wing is very very good even at close range.  So, its very possible to get a very good wig that's unnoticeable, yet not everybody gets one for whatever reasons.

Also, I do agree that its not always possible to fix baldness through medical means yet so you have a female like density. They can somewhat restore a male like density.... But that's not what were looking for.

Very soon, with hair cloning (they are experimenting this right now), maybe it will be possible for everyone to get dense hair.

Exactly Keira.  I literally either have to wait to see if HRT is effective or nothing can be done.  I may have to wait for the new methods (cloning and wound therapy).  My hair is severly thin on all sides, in addition to receding hair line (this goes well beyond simple male pattern baldness, this is the entire scalp thinning out.  Transplant and scalp advancement CANNOT be done, I simply do not qualify because of this).  Basically if HRT does not work its either a weave or a wig.  I am SMART enough to do Human Hair with a color blend and darker hair (no unnatural sheen, it acts like real hair, and there is only one spot that you have to be ultra aware to catch it to be a wig, and I am going to get it cut and styled where that spot is hidden).  I also picked a wig that fit my face. I was very smart about buying a wig.  For some people it is a no choice thing Melissa, whether you like to admit it or not, including some younger GG I know.  The thing is if you are smart, it takes a very trained eye to spot a wig, and most of the time, its not going to be a TS wearing one. 

I cannot afford the annual cost of a hair system. 

If a year from now HRT works I would be very excited, but if it doesn't I will get over it. and get on with wearing wigs.  Contrary to your belief, some things cannot be solved through surgery.  Do not make blanket statements or blanket assumptions.  Do not make comments without knowing a persons situation.  I will say do not make comments without knowing a persons goals either.   

The thing is last I checked, I am on the YOUNG side (28). When there is severe hair loss...everything goes rather quickly, and the ONLY possible fix is HRT, and if that works is no garuntee, surgery is NOT an option, and how well HRT works is no garuntee either.   If I was not transitioning I would literally have no hair by the age of 34. 

The thing is most of the problems of wigs that make them a dead giveaway are avoidable if you get a Hand tied Human Hair wig and are selective and get it styled.  The issue is you have to get one that matches your face.  The thing is most TS are pretty dumb about picking one out, get artificial wigs, but they also have quite a few other things that prevent them from passing that is why it is so readily apparent.  It is a lack of asthetics, and there are other things there that are problems.  I also know some who pull it off brilliantly.  If you avoid artificial wigs, you avoid the issues with wigs being readily apparent, this is how the GG I know pull off wigs, they avoid artificial wigs, because well..they look fake because everything is too perfect and all the problems Keira was describing are present. 

I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.

Some women are more confident about their looks than others and some seek confirmation of their attractiveness from other females, or males! Beauty is a matter of opinion.  But yes, I do think I am beautiful. Quite a few people have told me that too.

I do not consider myself beautiful. I have been called beautiful, attractive, pretty, etc but ultimately still have never found that someone special. Besides I still see pieces of the old me in the mirror and that drives me nuts.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.

I don't have much contact with people who wear wigs from day to day.  I'll admit that.  I am, however, a member of the cosplay subculture. Wigs are the order of the day.  I have PERSONALLY seen probably.... well, if I consider that Anime North last year had over 11k people, and that I've been going for a few years and maybe a quarter of all cosplayers use wigs and half of all con-goers are wig wearers... I figure I've seen somewhere around 5-6 THOUSAND wigs.  Of those, I have seen wigs in all colours, shapes and sizes that I honestly COULD NOT TELL were wigs until a cosplayer got too hot and pulled the wig off to scratch underneath.  I've seen at least a hundred people, likely more, that fit this description, in hair colours ranging from bubblegum pink, to white, to black, to brown, to red.

There is such a thing as good wigs.  You just have to do your research.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:35 PM
I didn't mean to hurt anyone, I am just giving my opinion, and I am steadfast in my belief that, in my world, a wig on a white woman is a dead giveaway, unless it's Halloween or Bay to Breakers, whatever. And I don't know anyone who can't spot a wig a mile away, sometimes I think I live in some parallel universe, maybe I do.

That is probably the case.
You have to realize, it may be harder to pass in SF because being TS is more common, but it is not as big a deal when you don't pass.
It is different in different cities.  I have only been clocked once...even up close, and it was not because of my wig...but my credit card (and even then it took them awhile to figure things out).  To most people with the wig, I just look like a waifish flat chested woman.  Even if somebody caught onto the wig, the first thing that pops into thier mind is not TS, but rather cancer. 

The truth is the first things that will give you away is height, frame and then facial features, not whether or not you are wearing a wig.  I know perfectly passable TS who have to wear wigs. They pass because their complete presentation is right.  Even if people catch onto the wig, that may be ALL they catch onto, and they will not necessarily leap to the TS assumption if everything else looks right.

I am fortunate enough to be a waif.  My height is 5'9".  The only thing that ever screamed male on me regarding my face was my facial hair.  Not saying there is not other masculine features, but my face has always been this wierd mix of masculine and feminine features.  Nothing really masculine enough to justify FFS, I have things I would personally change (minor teaks to the nose and brow, and my ears, but thats not a masculine/feminine issue, I just think they look weird), but nothing that keeps me from passing.  Quite literally my only issue is my hair.   

I am not beautiful by any means (nor do I want to be, again consider goals, not everybody wants to be beautiful)...but I also don't scream male.  Even during the male days, I was to androgynous, even with the thinning hair to really be seen as male.