I've been thinking tonight, there are vocal trainers out there who might help me with my female voice, and that's great and all, but how does one go about training themselves to present themselves are more feminine? I'm talking mannerisms and gestures and walking and moving.  I've never really had any female friends to speak of, and was one of four boys in my family.  I strongly desire to be female, but even my old "gender" therapist looked at me and said bluntly "You come across to me as a perfectly normal, straight male."

I mean, most of my friends who know me very well will say I could go either way, male or female, that I present myself very neutrally... but I can't really tell. I feel like me.  So that's really it; how do I go about training myself to be the female when I don't really have a basis of comparison, or even help close at hand?

I've often wondered if there wasn't a role for hypnosis in both behavior and voice control.

It might seem odd for the latter but at least it might help the mind shift such that the new voice was the "natural" default voice so as to avoid lapses.

Easy. Be yourself! That is the most feminine thing you could do. You are a woman, therefore you will act like a woman. There is no set standard that says a woman has to act a certain way. Yes, there are social stereotypes. I honestly believe if you just allow yourself to relax, you will have all the "feminine" mannerisms you need. Also, once you start really diving into the world of women you may pick up a few things.

Just watch, listen ... really pay attention to the little gestures that women make that no man ever does. Look at hand movements, posture, gestures, expressions. For example, if you're in a coffee shop watch the way that two women talk to one another across a table: the intimacy, the way they look at one another so much more than men do, the physical contact, the laugher (even when it doesn't seem to a guy like anyone's said anything funny) ... the way a woman holds her purse or her shoulder bag ... how she crosses her ankles when she sits down ... there's a ton of stuff.

I know what you mean about teachers. There are videos and stuff, but one thing that might be helpful - if you're already presenting as a female - is to sign up for ballroom dancing classes. Just following, rather than leading, learning to be graceful, making very feminine movements - I agree they're all somewhat exaggerated and stereotypical (even sexist), but I can't thin of a better crash course in moving like a girl.

And I think you really do have to learn - everyone does. I don't agree that being yourself is enough - not if the self you've lived with all your life is a male one. Patterns of movement and gesture - like speech patterns and intonation - can be a real giveaway. Men and women do hold themselves differently and move differently. Their postures are different and it will be much, much easier to pass if all those things strike the people you're dealing with as female rather than male.

But above all, to go back to where I started: pay attention to women. Let your sisters be your guide.

I tend to speak with my hands more often than not, especially from being at work where loud fans obstruct noise, it's become habitual, but I'm very quiet and shy, I don't generally touch people, as when I do its awkward. Mostly, I think the "male way" of doing things is so conditioned in my mind, that even if it feels wrong, it's hard to stop doing. Truthfully? I'd give anything to have one or two MtF's nearby, as well as a few who were lucky enough to be born female, as I've never been one to be able to teach myself, I tend to learn by example.

Quote from: Firecat on October 12, 2012, 02:14:58 PM
I tend to speak with my hands more often than not, especially from being at work where loud fans obstruct noise, it's become habitual, but I'm very quiet and shy, I don't generally touch people, as when I do its awkward. Mostly, I think the "male way" of doing things is so conditioned in my mind, that even if it feels wrong, it's hard to stop doing. Truthfully? I'd give anything to have one or two MtF's nearby, as well as a few who were lucky enough to be born female, as I've never been one to be able to teach myself, I tend to learn by example.

Well, if you happen to be in the Seattle area feel free to pm me. Maybe we could get together.

Hi Firecat,

This is such a complicated subject. I went through the same thing you did: in college, I went to a counselor who I really started to like. I told him about my feelings, and he said to me: "you're extremely masculine, though." I spoke in a very monotone, stoic way and dressed in very baggy clothes. I didn't care what I wore. I didn't tell him about my sexuality (I'm only attracted to men). It hurt my feelings and kind of made me feel disillusioned with him. Here's why:

When I was little, I was very effeminate; my mother attributes to this. I preferred female friends, objects and activities and have vivid memories of being frustrated, blah blah -- you know the whole spiel, I'm sure. My "masculinity" was an eventual, teenage self-defense mechanism because my family at large is very queer-phobic and some times accosted me for my behavior. I carried this mechanism for so long that I began to question if it really was a mask, but here's the reality of it: I never really cared about my appearance or the way I acted because it wasn't what I identified with.

When I became fed up with hiding and came out to my friends (very few of which are women, primarily because I shamelessly enjoy the company of men), I slowly (and naturally) became more and more feminine. They all tell me this, and they are not the type to feed people white lies what-so-ever. If feminine is who you are, then it really will be who you will be when you stop stifling yourself. It sucks, it takes a long time, but the way you present yourself tends to naturally shift towards elements that excite and resonate with you -- so long as you aren't holding yourself back for some reason, which much like my counselor, is usually because people expect you to rally against your nature and can't, or don't care to, understand your motives.

I agree that some people could do with educating themselves, if that's what they want to do and how they learn things. I went through this awkward phase where I tried to force myself to be feminine and I ended up over-compensating (I see a lot of trans women do this). I don't agree that it's always necessary. Some times you really do need to cast off the shackles and just give yourself some time. It can be a pretty trying and awful experience at times when you feel you're compromising your dignity with others, but it is really worth it to just get out there and experiment. I feel that is the best way to learn, especially if you are all about learning with trial, error, and substance; I promise you.

Good luck! I wish you the best.

Another thing I find very odd in the trans community. When it comes to FFS every detail of "the female standard" is somehow mandatory, same with other physical attributes like having perfect hair etc.

But when it comes to mannerisms, I see many people blowing that off to "stereotype" and that movement and mannerisms come naturally "because we are women". They don't. It's learned behavior, not something you are born with. You can have perfect full FFS and a female looking body but move like a man and it will just look weird. 

Quote from: Stephe on October 12, 2012, 09:01:27 PM
Another thing I find very odd in the trans community. When it comes to FFS every detail of "the female standard" is somehow mandatory, same with other physical attributes like having perfect hair etc.

But when it comes to mannerisms, I see many people blowing that off to "stereotype" and that movement and mannerisms come naturally "because we are women". They don't. It's learned behavior, not something you are born with. You can have perfect full FFS and a female looking body but move like a man and it will just look weird.

I do agree that not all feminine mannerisms come naturally, but I do think some do, for some people. For me, I had to learn the male mannerisms, but the feminine ones come naturally to me. Everyone is different.

Quote from: Brooke777 on October 12, 2012, 09:26:49 PM
I do agree that not all feminine mannerisms come naturally, but I do think some do, for some people. For me, I had to learn the male mannerisms, but the feminine ones come naturally to me. Everyone is different.

I completely agree with Brooke. I often see extremists in either camp, and I have to disagree with both: not everyone will, but some people will pick up things naturally. I think to say that no one ever will is just as silly as saying that everyone will.

Edit: changed "other" to "either."

No one is born with mannerisms, it's learned behavior from watching adults. It's no different from leaning how to talk. No one is born talking or naturally speaks a certain language. I know it's pleasant to think "I will soon have the correct mannerisms because I was born a woman", that's not how learned behavior works. This is no different than female speech patterns, that was learned as well. The only reason it "comes naturally" is feel you are a woman, so you act like one.

Quote from: Stephe on October 12, 2012, 11:41:15 PM
No one is born with mannerisms, it's learned behavior from watching adults. It's no different from leaning how to talk. No one is born talking or naturally speaks a certain language. I know it's pleasant to think "I will soon have the correct mannerisms because I was born a woman", that's not how learned behavior works. This is no different than female speech patterns, that was learned as well. The only reason it "comes naturally" is feel you are a woman, so you act like one.

^^ Think this is true. I have pretty exclusively female-range mannerisms. As far as I can tell it's just because I picked them up when I was a child and my parents never tried or wanted to correct me. By the time I started getting in trouble for how I moved in school, they weren't really amenable to change without more effort than I was willing to put in. I can do a few guy-typical things that my friends taught me, but it doesn't really "come naturally" because I wasn't particularly motivated or consistent in practicing - basically I look like a girl doing "guy."

I expect that isn't a super uncommon experience. And a lot of folks have at least some female stuff they picked up over the years. But not everybody does.

Honestly, I think the biggest problem with a lot of the conversations around mannerisms is this "if you're a reel womyn you'll know how to do X" odour coming off them. It's really not cool. People should not be shamed for learning things. Ever. And just because some of us got lucky enough to pick this stuff up already doesn't make us better. It makes us privileged. Not the same thing.

Agree. I think most gender expression/behaviour is "learned"

Not sure if I agree 

Well mostly I just think that for people who say environment makes you what you are it's not very fair because it totally discounts all the people who struggled due to naturally being the exact opposite of what their environment was trying to make them.

Personally I think it's a mix...

Some factors that play into it are like... well for one, there is a gender gap in the tendency to empathize with people, and women are generally more tuned in to body language than men. On the other hand men are more likely to be assertive, so they might naturally carry themselves in a more dominant way, like sitting more freely and in a way that makes them look bigger. Then there are also the differences caused by physical differences, like how you hold your weight or how you cross your legs even.

So I think it is pretty complicated BUT as a rule it seems like the more severely a trans person's personality contrasts their birth sex, the more likely they are to just naturally have mannerisms that match their gender.

But tbh I think as a rule you should not be trying too hard to actually change how you behave... because then rather than becoming more of the person you are, aren't you becoming something you're not? Idk 

Hi,

What am i trying to prove  that im a women  because i act like one or follow if you like in thier steps ,

Does it mean im not a woman because i dont look like one  how i walk,  so how many women walk the same way.  voice can be a bit different yet i know women whos voices are so male & deep i had to look.

in fact was a lot lower than mine,

Im a intersexed  woman a female if you like just not in all details the same as a normal woman who has a womb yet i know some dont have a womb does that say they are not real female / woman. no of cause not.

I have my own style of walking if it happens to be like a woman all well & good if not i dont give a toss,

Im not trying to be like a female / woman because i am one do i have to conform to what some & it happens to be males in thier idear of what they think a woman should be like  how we should act or do things , its time we got as far away from that as posible why, because they wont us to conform to thier standards,  , well i wont im my own person a very strong woman who will not bend to thier ways, 

Look at the cat walks how stupid the young women there cant walk its a put on ,  would my many women friends walk like that..... not a show,

Be your self be who you are dont conform to a set way of doing things that has been put on us,

Now i know some wont agree with me , well thats okay they are not me & im not telling them what they should do. they have thier lifes to live, so be it,

All im saying is just be your self be comforable in who .....YOU.... are,

As to voice it was different for myself my own hormones did for me what i could not by forceing my voice in to a   maybe more like a female sounding likeness, & aqain because of being intersexed,

Many of the women i know thier voices are not like as youd expect like a young female sounding voice,we are in the older age group. so some have changed over the years,

If you can get help & you think you need it go for it,

All the best in what you do,

...noeleena...

Quote from: Stephe on October 12, 2012, 11:41:15 PM
No one is born with mannerisms, it's learned behavior from watching adults. It's no different from leaning how to talk. No one is born talking or naturally speaks a certain language. I know it's pleasant to think "I will soon have the correct mannerisms because I was born a woman", that's not how learned behavior works. This is no different than female speech patterns, that was learned as well. The only reason it "comes naturally" is feel you are a woman, so you act like one.

I don't disagree with this, and never meant to imply otherwise if that was interpreted from anything I said. What I personally wanted to establish is that some people naturally learn mannerisms, such as children do from adults -- as in, they do not intentionally study and practice the mannerisms as though it were a topic of education.

I didn't think anyone literally meant that mannerisms are simply gifted to women. I thought it was fairly apparent that mannerisms are born of culture; my argument is/was that some people will simply gravitate towards those mannerisms because it is what they identify with or what they desire to be. If someone else intends to argue differently, I can't say I could speak for them.

Quote from: pretty on October 13, 2012, 12:39:19 AM
But tbh I think as a rule you should not be trying too hard to actually change how you behave... because then rather than becoming more of the person you are, aren't you becoming something you're not? Idk 

I guess I don't really feel like my personality is hugely expressed in the way I happen to sit. It's just my body's random behaviour, and as casually expendable as the hair I got electrocuted off my face.

I mean when we make choices about how to present ourselves to the world... isn't that itself a form of expressing who we are? Why are our "natural" mannerisms any more representative of our identities than our "natural" bodies? I LIKE sitting like a guy sometimes. Doesn't that mean it's representative of my personality, regardless of it being behaviour that I learned later in my life?

The concept is so strange to me. I've been through a number of major surgeries, hormones, electrolysis, laser... and all those alterations are expressing my "real self"? But if I want to sit differently, THAT is not being true to myself? Why? What about all you folk's voices? Didn't you alter them? Is that being true to yourself?

I don't do anything differently now compared to before I started transitioning. But then, I was often told I was a very effeminate guy though - I guess my 'guy act' was never that good. That said, some would say that some of my mannerisms are fairly male, others not at all.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 13, 2012, 03:21:59 AM
What about all you folk's voices? Didn't you alter them? Is that being true to yourself?

Nope, haven't altered my voice at all. And the funny thing is, it doesn't seem to cause me a single issue..

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 13, 2012, 03:21:59 AM
I guess I don't really feel like my personality is hugely expressed in the way I happen to sit. It's just my body's random behaviour, and as casually expendable as the hair I got electrocuted off my face.

I mean when we make choices about how to present ourselves to the world... isn't that itself a form of expressing who we are? Why are our "natural" mannerisms any more representative of our identities than our "natural" bodies? I LIKE sitting like a guy sometimes. Doesn't that mean it's representative of my personality, regardless of it being behaviour that I learned later in my life?

The concept is so strange to me. I've been through a number of major surgeries, hormones, electrolysis, laser... and all those alterations are expressing my "real self"? But if I want to sit differently, THAT is not being true to myself? Why? What about all you folk's voices? Didn't you alter them? Is that being true to yourself?

Well I think there's a point where it's normal and then there's a point when maybe you're less transitioning and more trying to become something else...

I do think how you carry yourself is a part of who you are because.. I don't know... it's just so you? A shy person acts different then a gregarious person. A Johnny Depp is not a Clint Eastwood is not a Hugh Laurie.  How you interact with the world and people is what puts color to your style  You can change some superficial level of that but you're gonna pretty quickly get to a point where you're just acting.  And in the end, everyone develops that style around the examples of people they naturally identify with.  If you're a diva, you're naturally gonna want to walk with that pop in your step 

I guess I just don't think these are things to teach and be taught? If you have the wrong mannerisms maybe it is more about the way you see yourself than actually just not being exposed to other mannerisms, IMO.

Its exactly what my original therapist said to me when I asked her about this kind of thing... "Why would you need that kind of training? Isn't the point to just be yourself in the end?" Yes I agree with it in some ways... if I don't like something, I'm not necessarily going to pick it up. However, the only "self" I know is that quiet, shy awkward boy who can't join in with the conversations, can't seem to click with anybody at work or at home, whose "friends" even ignore him on hangout times because he "brings nothing to the table."  So what I'm looking for is not acting lessons, but the ability to relax and be comfortable around others.

I suppose the biggest problem I have is seeing gray area... I see  the gender stereotypes as black and white, and no it's not a good thing, and I"m trying to work on that.  As a male, I've had the hardest time throughout the years being repressed by others saying being queer is wrong, being gay is wrong, acting feminine is wrong... and was ridiculed for it. No, I'm not gay, I was never openly such, and I had no idea why people thought I was, but still.   My old therapist said I look and act perfectly and normally straight and male to her, and yet the way I feel is... I don't fit that way, I feel awkward and self conscious, having to talk to anyone or say anything spikes my anxiety up most times, because I'm afraid of saying the wrong things or making myself look bad.

I know this is a learned behavior because my "friends" pick on each other all the time, they were always extremely competitive at games, and would always offer criticism, never advice, they would always try to make themselves feel superior... and when I get uncomfortable around others, or am trying to be friendly, I'll often catch myself mimicking them, because it's the only way I've ever known to be friends in person.  It's awful and I hate myself for it, so I try to stay away from social interactions. I think my awkward male self is just a defense mechanism.

Online, where people are free to just see my personality, I've had more than one occasion where a guy or two has come up and asked if I was really a girl! That evidently the way I articulated my normal sentences, the way I spoke and the things i talked about were all ques to some of these people. Even my close online friends who know me better than anyone would say I'm gender neutral or even more in the feminine category. Even a close male friend of mine online says that I act "feminine" not "gay."  So... I don't know, it's confusing, but I think there must be a side to me that I'm keeping hidden.

It would be nice to never have to be shy to smile in public again.