So, I have been publicly identified as Androgynous for about 5 years now. I waver back and fourth almost weekly on what I feel. Here is what I know about myself and a brief History.

When given the option I have always chosen male clothing over female
I prefer male activities
I do enjoy makeup at times though
I have always visualized myself as male mentally
I always choose personal characters in games or general to be male
I see myself in dreams as a male about 50% of the time, maybe more
I cannot relate to women, so much so that I dont and never have really had any female friends that are not gay or MtF
I am only attracted to men
I am kinda cold and have a hard time understanding why people get so bent over things
I am highly creative
I am highly sexual ((very strong drive))
After taking gender personality tests I either test perfectly in the middle or a bit more toward male
I find homosexual things far more attractive than "straight"
I have a dominating personality
I love the fact that my body is androgynous and that I have very tiny breasts naturally
I have identified as gender neutral or androgynous sense I was a child even though I have only been verbally open for about 5 years.
My personal self image is a gay male BUT I have always had low self esteem and when people tell me what a beautiful GIRL I am, It makes me feel good, so some days I like to flaunt that, even though my personality stays male dominate.

I have been talking with a few Transgender friends, and they have all pretty much said that I have a Transgender personality but an androgynous physical outlook. Does this make me FtM? OR am I androgynous? I am just confused on what to say, or believe about myself, and honestly don't have much experience on these kinds of labels, I just have experience with the lifetime of feelings. If surgery was perfected to where I could go in and get changed perfectly into a functional male I would do it without a second thought, but due to the crappy surgery for FtM they have now I would never get it, but still love crossdressing and identifying as male and feel that it suits me better some days physically, but all the time mentally. What is going on here? Any input will be greatly appreciated.

At the end of the day, it's how you feel about your body. Generally speaking, people transition so that they can feel more comfortable in their bodies for the rest of their lives because they were born with a body that is one way, and a brain that tells them their body should be another way. You mentioned a bit about how you think you'd be happy in a male body, but a lot of what you said that makes you feel you may be more male are gender stereotypes. One can be female (or non-binary) and have 'male' interests and vice versa.

Quote from: .caleb on October 17, 2012, 11:32:08 PM
At the end of the day, it's how you feel about your body. Generally speaking, people transition so that they can feel more comfortable in their bodies for the rest of their lives because they were born with a body that is one way, and a brain that tells them their body should be another way. You mentioned a bit about how you think you'd be happy in a male body, but a lot of what you said that makes you feel you may be more male are gender stereotypes. One can be female (or non-binary) and have 'male' interests and vice versa.

Ok, I know I would be happier in a male body, I just am unhappy with the way surgery is at the given time. I often feel that I was supposed to be a male, but my body is female ya know? I am just frustrated about the fact that I for one cant just simply be a male, and for seconds, that my life in its current state doesn't allow for more forward presentations of my feelings. Honestly If it comes down to someone just simply asking me "What SEX feels right to you" Id say male without the slightest of hesitation. I just dont feel slightly connected to being female in any way other than the praise it has gotten me honestly :/ which makes me feel sad about myself as a whole. SO what I am asking...I guess..is...what does that mean?

OK, that makes more sense to me when you put it that way. Not everyone wants or gets bottom surgery, it doesn't necessarily mean you're not male. I don't really know what it means if you like getting praise for certain things about being female. It could just be a desire for outside validation?

Quote from: .caleb on October 17, 2012, 11:44:20 PM
OK, that makes more sense to me when you put it that way. Not everyone wants or gets bottom surgery, it doesn't necessarily mean you're not male. I don't really know what it means if you like getting praise for certain things about being female. It could just be a desire for outside validation?

Yeah I would get top surgery in a heart beat if it was worth it, I am seriously a No cup, I dont even need to bind, If I dont wear a pushup bra I am completely flat so surgery would really be a waste of time and money as I see it. As for bottom surgery, yeah I dont want it at its current state, but if within my lifetime it gets "perfected" I would say sign me up right away!

and damn, Honestly I never thought about it that way, :/ but when I think back it makes the most sense...I have always had lots of other "issues" and just didnt want to add these feelings to the mix, so I liked to try to "act the part" of my physical sex to try to hide my inner self, and basically keep trouble out of my life. That and I never feel satisfied or good about my sex. Its just never good enough, always wrong, always ->-bleeped-<- ya know? But when Im crossdressing or being well, ME, I feel perfect, nothing about me bothers me, even my sucky skin that always made me feel like ->-bleeped-<- seems beautiful for me when im able to have a "real me" day.

If you identify as being Androgynous then as i see it, there is no real fixed reference and you can express yourself however you feel like, at any given moment. 

During a conversation at the  retreat on Gender Diversity and Sexuality  I attended at the weekend, it was suggested that some people who don't feel comfortable with any description of their orientation could best describe  themselves as sexual beings, and leave it at that. 

Just a couple of thoughts that might provide a few ideas for discussion.

Karen.

Quote from: justmeinoz on October 18, 2012, 09:34:46 AM
If you identify as being Androgynous then as i see it, there is no real fixed reference and you can express yourself however you feel like, at any given moment. 

During a conversation at the  retreat on Gender Diversity and Sexuality  I attended at the weekend, it was suggested that some people who don't feel comfortable with any description of their orientation could best describe  themselves as sexual beings, and leave it at that. 

Just a couple of thoughts that might provide a few ideas for discussion.

Karen.

hmm interesting. I would have loved to go to such a retreat. I do feel more comfortable as and visualize myself as a male though. I just enjoy makeup at times I guess is what it comes down to :/

if you see yourself as a guy, then that's probably what you are. many guys like to wear makeup or even skirts, without that making them less male. dressing androgynously is just the way you express yourself to the world, it doesn't have to mean that you really are gender neutral. though it might also be that you're a gender neutral person who wants to be more like the gender they relates to most easily. or it may be that your mind is overcompensating for your female body in trying to be more neutral, so you end up seeking too strongly to the male side. a bit like if the body is xx, then the mind has to be xy in order to balance. but if that's the case, then your mind would probably go towards a much more neutral gender if you make your body xy-like (maybe in "feeling" too, through hrt) to balance with xx genes.

those were some angles to look at it from, no idea if any of them are even close to what you are though

Among all the labels around (if you want a label, which you don't have to want), there's no reason not to think of yourself as an androgynous non-op trans man. Not wanting surgery doesn't make you not transgender if you feel your gender doesn't match your current body. But being trans and androgyne are not mutually exclusive. And there's no requirement to think of yourself as trans, either.

You actually don't sound confused to me, though - it sounds like you know who you are, you're just not sure (perhaps) if it's okay to be who you are. Well, it is . You can just be you, choosing to present different ways depending on what suits you. If at some point you find yourself consistently drawn towards a more male body, then there's time to do something about that when that happens. If not, then not.

Quote from: Taka on October 18, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
if you see yourself as a guy, then that's probably what you are. many guys like to wear makeup or even skirts, without that making them less male. dressing androgynously is just the way you express yourself to the world, it doesn't have to mean that you really are gender neutral. though it might also be that you're a gender neutral person who wants to be more like the gender they relates to most easily. or it may be that your mind is overcompensating for your female body in trying to be more neutral, so you end up seeking too strongly to the male side. a bit like if the body is xx, then the mind has to be xy in order to balance. but if that's the case, then your mind would probably go towards a much more neutral gender if you make your body xy-like (maybe in "feeling" too, through hrt) to balance with xx genes.

those were some angles to look at it from, no idea if any of them are even close to what you are though

Ya know, honestly after a few days of just thinking and such. I do realize that its not the fact that I dont fully see myself as male, its the fact that I am still embarrassed by it after all these years, and still feel that because my family sees it as wrong its wrong...therefore second guessing myself. I just needed to hear a few opinions and rant a bit to really notice that Its not everyone or everything else, its mostly me just being not used to being open about my feelings, I have been hiding so long that I got used to just making a separate world for myself, and I am a logical person and the fact that I cant explain the feelings other than for what they are is just making me mad. Thank you for your post, it means a lot to just hear opinions right now.

Quote from: Padma on October 18, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
Among all the labels around (if you want a label, which you don't have to want), there's no reason not to think of yourself as an androgynous non-op trans man. Not wanting surgery doesn't make you not transgender if you feel your gender doesn't match your current body. But being trans and androgyne are not mutually exclusive. And there's no requirement to think of yourself as trans, either.

You actually don't sound confused to me, though - it sounds like you know who you are, you're just not sure (perhaps) if it's okay to be who you are. Well, it is . You can just be you, choosing to present different ways depending on what suits you. If at some point you find yourself consistently drawn towards a more male body, then there's time to do something about that when that happens. If not, then not.

Thank you so much for this. I just actually pretty much said the same thing in the quote above this. I know who I am, I am just not accepting myself fully yet, which is upsetting me, but on the flip side Im just scared you know? God, I just have never felt not alone until now, and im just so lost as to knowing how to respond, and what to say. Thanks so much for responding here!

Silas, you have had several members give you very insightful observations.  It has been my experience that labels tend to box me in.  I prefer just to acknowledge that my gender shifts and it is entirely situational.

Quote from: Jamie D on October 20, 2012, 02:41:36 AM
Silas, you have had several members give you very insightful observations.  It has been my experience that labels tend to box me in.  I prefer just to acknowledge that my gender shifts and it is entirely situational.

thanks hun! This too was a wonderful response. I am glad to hear from all of you!

It sucks but i feel like no matter how much we rationalize, for some things theres just no hard and fast answer. I say keep in tuned with your feelings. Always accept them for what they are, both positive and negative feelings, and just go with it. Thats what i do. I always look for feedback but people are telling you their opinions and observatons, and theres always the  possibility of that not being true. The truth, i think, is in your gut. You just gotta trust it.

Quote from: Silas. on October 17, 2012, 10:54:34 PM
So, I have been publicly identified as Androgynous for about 5 years now. I waver back and fourth almost weekly on what I feel. Here is what I know about myself and a brief History.

When given the option I have always chosen male clothing over female
I prefer male activities
I do enjoy makeup at times though
I have always visualized myself as male mentally
I always choose personal characters in games or general to be male
I see myself in dreams as a male about 50% of the time, maybe more
I cannot relate to women, so much so that I dont and never have really had any female friends that are not gay or MtF
I am only attracted to men
I am kinda cold and have a hard time understanding why people get so bent over things
I am highly creative
I am highly sexual ((very strong drive))
After taking gender personality tests I either test perfectly in the middle or a bit more toward male
I find homosexual things far more attractive than "straight"
I have a dominating personality
I love the fact that my body is androgynous and that I have very tiny breasts naturally
I have identified as gender neutral or androgynous sense I was a child even though I have only been verbally open for about 5 years.
My personal self image is a gay male BUT I have always had low self esteem and when people tell me what a beautiful GIRL I am, It makes me feel good, so some days I like to flaunt that, even though my personality stays male dominate.

I have been talking with a few Transgender friends, and they have all pretty much said that I have a Transgender personality but an androgynous physical outlook. Does this make me FtM? OR am I androgynous? I am just confused on what to say, or believe about myself, and honestly don't have much experience on these kinds of labels, I just have experience with the lifetime of feelings. If surgery was perfected to where I could go in and get changed perfectly into a functional male I would do it without a second thought, but due to the crappy surgery for FtM they have now I would never get it, but still love crossdressing and identifying as male and feel that it suits me better some days physically, but all the time mentally. What is going on here? Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Hummm...not so confusing to me...you seem to be a dude through and through...just evolving and in your way to accept your true self

Quote from: DrillQuip on October 20, 2012, 04:40:14 PM
It sucks but i feel like no matter how much we rationalize, for some things theres just no hard and fast answer. I say keep in tuned with your feelings. Always accept them for what they are, both positive and negative feelings, and just go with it. Thats what i do. I always look for feedback but people are telling you their opinions and observatons, and theres always the  possibility of that not being true. The truth, i think, is in your gut. You just gotta trust it.

God everything you just said here is what I have been saying in my head all day. -sighs- Its not easy at all sadly, Just need to learn to accept myself and my thoughts.

Quote from: peky on October 20, 2012, 04:54:13 PM
Hummm...not so confusing to me...you seem to be a dude through and through...just evolving and in your way to accept your true self

yeah I can agree, I guess I am just having a super hard time accepting myself :/

This

Quote from: Taka on October 18, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
if you see yourself as a guy, then that's probably what you are. many guys like to wear makeup or even skirts, without that making them less male.

and this

Quote from: Padma on October 18, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
You actually don't sound confused to me, though - it sounds like you know who you are, you're just not sure (perhaps) if it's okay to be who you are. Well, it is . You can just be you, choosing to present different ways depending on what suits you. If at some point you find yourself consistently drawn towards a more male body, then there's time to do something about that when that happens. If not, then not.

You look like, and seem to self-identify as, a very pretty boy to me and that's a perfectly good thing to be. Having some feminine tastes and traits like the ones you described is something gay men have had to deal with for ages and then learn to love ourselves as we are. You're not so different in that respect. You're not alone at all. I can see how you might feel more reluctance to accept them having been born female-bodied but that doesn't change it. It seems like a phase some trans folk go through when they're still being mis-gendered--feeling like they need to be a very stereotypical male or female in order to pass OR in order for some ignorant people to accept that they really are trans. It's understandable and I could see myself doing the same thing in the same shoes, but as they start to pass consistently and as they educate the people around them about being trans, they relax into who they really are and are a lot happier.

I doubt anyone, trans or not, fits all the stereotypical expectations of being a man or a woman. The reality is we are all very complicated individuals (thank goodness!) and labels are just a quick summary way of describing ourselves that will always fall short of describing who we are. Just think about that list you made and imagine having a one-word label to describe all of that. Not gonna happen. But that's the real you.

Quote from: Silas. on October 20, 2012, 11:52:30 PM
yeah I can agree, I guess I am just having a super hard time accepting myself :/

I throw this quote from a member out here, every so often, as it meant a lot to me at the time it was made.
I hope it has some meaning and is helpful to you as it was to me.
Ativan

Gender has no meaning or value if it is counterfeit.
Counterfeit gender is just a game, a trick, an amusement,
an act, a fraud, a deception, an imitation, artificial, bogus.

Be yourself, not a gender.
Being yourself is effortless and genuine.
Being yourself is REAL, not counterfeit.
In being yourself, in behaving in a manner which is natural to you,
whatever gender you are becomes self-evident.

-Emerald

Quote from: Silas. on October 17, 2012, 10:54:34 PM
So, I have been publicly identified as Androgynous for about 5 years now. I waver back and fourth almost weekly on what I feel. Here is what I know about myself and a brief History.

When given the option I have always chosen male clothing over female
I prefer male activities
I do enjoy makeup at times though
I have always visualized myself as male mentally
I always choose personal characters in games or general to be male
I see myself in dreams as a male about 50% of the time, maybe more
I cannot relate to women, so much so that I dont and never have really had any female friends that are not gay or MtF
I am only attracted to men
I am kinda cold and have a hard time understanding why people get so bent over things
I am highly creative
I am highly sexual ((very strong drive))
After taking gender personality tests I either test perfectly in the middle or a bit more toward male
I find homosexual things far more attractive than "straight"
I have a dominating personality
I love the fact that my body is androgynous and that I have very tiny breasts naturally
I have identified as gender neutral or androgynous sense I was a child even though I have only been verbally open for about 5 years.
My personal self image is a gay male BUT I have always had low self esteem and when people tell me what a beautiful GIRL I am, It makes me feel good, so some days I like to flaunt that, even though my personality stays male dominate.

I have been talking with a few Transgender friends, and they have all pretty much said that I have a Transgender personality but an androgynous physical outlook. Does this make me FtM? OR am I androgynous? I am just confused on what to say, or believe about myself, and honestly don't have much experience on these kinds of labels, I just have experience with the lifetime of feelings. If surgery was perfected to where I could go in and get changed perfectly into a functional male I would do it without a second thought, but due to the crappy surgery for FtM they have now I would never get it, but still love crossdressing and identifying as male and feel that it suits me better some days physically, but all the time mentally. What is going on here? Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Your situation sounds a whole lot similar to mine and it is rather confusing at times. Specially when you try to explain it to other people and they just stare at you with black faces or they try to change you so that you'd "fit in".