A baby was baptized at my church today.

The pastor made a comment to the parents about their great baby boy who will grow to be a great man.

All I could think of was Not all boys grow up to be men.

This pastor knows my story, as does the majority of the congregation. I felt somewhat diminished by this comment she made, though. I'm certain the comment wasn't made to reinforce the gender binary or gender roles. I wonder if I should have mentioned something to the pastor afterwards?

Personally, I doubt it. I think a lot of people still can't get past the notion that people who are not part of the 'norm' are making a choice.

His words are not necessarily a command or irrefutable. If he says that for every infant then it's probably a bit shallow.

I don't think he was making anything specific about it - he would not have been deliberately trying to make a point at you.  I think it was more likely that he was expressing the general hopes that most parents have for their kids.

As for being shallow - I don't think there is much depth you can go into regarding a baby's character when they're that little. =)

Quote from: luna nyan on October 22, 2012, 07:29:09 AM

As for being shallow - I don't think there is much depth you can go into regarding a baby's character when they're that little. =)

Yes, you're right. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

I should have chosen my words more carefully, too. My pastor is a she, not a he.

Sorry about the confusion there.

Connie,

It is hard for most people to get past the years of gender conditioning.  Your pastor said what she probably has said for years.  You were right that in thinking "Not all boys grow up to be men."

I would not say anything, just let it pass.  The baptism was a time for the parents.  The comment was not directed at you, Sis.

Thanks, Janet.

I'll be really honest. I probably would have done the same thing...and have done the same thing.

When it comes to political correctness and choosing the right word or label, everyone will miss the mark. Heck, I even said "He" sometimes when it comes to God.

I believe when the Pastor said this boy will become a great man someday, she was being very uplifting to the child and to the family. It wasn't a underhanded comment of saying "I hope your boy will be a man because I hope he wont be a girl!" it had more to do with the child's character and integrity when he gets older.

And let's be honest....the odds of this child growing up to become a great woman isn't that high. I haven't seen many transgender (MtF, FtM) people out and about. I've seen many...but in ratio to the rest of the general public we are a pretty small minority of people so I don't think it was too far out there or unthoughtful with how the Pastor handled it. It was words of comfort directed towards the Parents of the newborn.

I am sure, if the time were to come where the child was struggling with their gender the Pastor will be there for the child.

Quote from: luna nyan on October 22, 2012, 07:29:09 AM
I don't think he was making anything specific about it - he would not have been deliberately trying to make a point at you.  I think it was more likely that he was expressing the general hopes that most parents have for their kids.

As for being shallow - I don't think there is much depth you can go into regarding a baby's character when they're that little. =)

^this

I guess part of what I was thinking was that I wondered what the priest might have said to my parents when I was baptized. Would he (Catholic church: I was baptized by a he) have said something similar?

Quote from: Constance on October 22, 2012, 02:09:06 PM
I guess part of what I was thinking was that I wondered what the priest might have said to my parents when I was baptized. Would he (Catholic church: I was baptized by a he) have said something similar?

Probably

Because when an infant that young they aren't thinking "I'm of the opposite sex" and the baptism uses the gender pronouns that is seen and shown based on the gender of the baby and the sex of the baby.

Not many people are thinking (not even me when I baptize) this baby will probably be the opposite sex. However, we are aware it may happen and some pastors are ready to deal that situation when it occurs.

Now, if the child was older and the child knew she or he was the opposite sex and the parents were fine, then I would use inclusive language. But babies and newborns...you just don't know and I would not want to cross the line of assumption.

Quote from: Annah on October 22, 2012, 02:18:30 PM
Now, if the child was older and the child new she or he was the opposite sex and the parents were fine, then I would use inclusive language. But babies and newborns...you just don't know and I would not want to cross the line of assumption.

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here. And maybe I just won't get it, but I am trying.

But isn't assuming the baby will be cis* "cross[ing] the line of assumption?"

Quote from: Constance on October 22, 2012, 02:20:59 PM
I'm really not trying to be obtuse here. And maybe I just won't get it, but I am trying.

But isn't assuming the baby will be cis* "cross[ing] the line of assumption?"

No I don't think so.

When 1 in 30,000 mtf and 1 in 100,000 ftm will exhibit some form of transsexual tendencies (and 35,000 in the US have changed their gender out of 311 million people), I would not think it would be crossing the line of assumption that the baby boy will grow up to be a man. The odds are 30,000 to 1 he will be a man when he grows up.

However, if he does changes sex, we have the ability to work this with the child. But as an infant, I do think it's too politically correct to change that declaration (unless the parents wishes to change it)

Very well. But "political correctness" was not what I was thinking of at all.

i meant political  correctness as in changing a term or a phrase as to not offend someone

It seemed you were offended or troubled that the Pastor used the phrase she did.

I came to this thread expecting pictures of a rash.

Honestly,  baptizing unsuspecting babies is weird. At the very least you should wait till they're 18 so they can tell you if they want to join that particular cult (branch of religion)

Personally I wouldn't say anything to the Pastor, the whole "not all boys grow up to be men etc" thing is totally irrelevant to why they were there. "Man" is also a name for our species, meaning all humans are included under that umbrella term regardless of colour, gender etc

Quote from: Isabelle on October 22, 2012, 03:57:05 PM
I came to this thread expecting pictures of a rash.

Honestly,  baptizing unsuspecting babies is weird. At the very least you should wait till they're 18 so they can tell you if they want to join that particular cult.

Everyone has their own religious views and beliefs. I do not feel it will help the OP if you call her Church a cult.

Please don't bash each others' beliefs - this is a breach of the ToS.

Hmm. Sorry if that term cult causes offense, it might mean something different where I'm from?

I meant it only as a reference to a subset of a religion

Cult. Wow.

Okay, maybe it's time to lock this thread. We can right it off as another of Connie's Classic Message Board Blunders.