...and being called Miss

God i just hate it so much. I had to sit and give all my details yesterday for a change of utility supplier and because i was uttering he kept asking me to a) repeat my name and b) 'is that miss?' *mutters* yeah... 'sorry is that miss?' yeah. I couldn't look him in the eye for the rest of the time he was there - utterly humiliating. Whats worse is that I had to do it all over again on the follow up call on a 'bad line' I swear people have some sort of vendetta to make me say my name and gender so much this week...

What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing

Count yourself lucky to not be a french speaker, where gender in language construction is much more important and seeing everyone trip over referring to you in the correctly gendered phrase even 10 months later (not to mention that you have to be carefull not to out yourself by making that kind of error too; switching gender in language is much harder than in english (I am totally fluent in french and english).

I don't really mind 'miss' so much, but I get murderous if someone calls me 'ma'am' or something like 'You're a ________ woman', even if it's a nice statement.

I hate sir.
The whole he/she thing never bothered me that much.  I really hate sir though.   

It wasn't the being called miss so much as the fact I really didn't expect it to feel that way on hearing it I guess... Ive come to the conclusion its okay if written down, but not in speech. I hate hearing it more than anything...

I really hate being called sir.

Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 06:50:14 AM
What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing

Yep, I hear ya. It was the same with me. It seems the more you accept who you are, the more those pronouns hurt. And *especially* as you start transitioning and trying to LIVE for real finally... wrong pronouns REALLY hurt.

Before beginning to transition, I didn't much like the SIRS, but I also knew I couldn't expect anything else. But as soon as this journey began though, I started having HOPE - hope to be seen and recognized - so every SIR felt like a failure, a chipping away at my hope that things would ever change, that'd I'd ever be seen for who I am.

~Kate~

I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...

 I don't like when someone calls me 'ma'am' because it makes me feel old, i want to be called "miss"

but i know what you mean, i hate being called sir or he, or him, but being called sir or mister so and so  is the worse.

I totally get what you mean... those little things can bite ya big.

The thing with pro-nouns it can be good and it can be bad.

Before I transitioned, I was quiet often taken as female, even when wearing male business clothes.  It was very flattering to be called ma'am, miss, she etc.  I hated being called sir, he, etc, when presented as male, which was only at work.

Post transition I have been very lucky in that I pass very well and I have not once been called the wrong pro-noun, even by people who know me, for example the people I work with.  But I would not like for someone to use the wrong pro-noun now, as it would not make me feel all that good.

But I can understand that people using the wrong pro-nouns post transition would be quiet hurtful, it just hasn't happened to me, thankfully.

Sally

I just think it's so funny that tiny things can change how people view you. A couple weeks ago, I got "miss'd" a few times, and couldn't figure it out, nor could my wife. So I cut my hair a little shorter on the sides (even though it was barely over an inch long to start with), and now I hear nothing but "sir." I don't get it.

Also, I was pulled over the other night (aaargh can't they just quit it with the speeding tickets already?!) and on the ticket (ugh), my information was noted concurrent with that on my driver's license. My name is not legally changed as yet, so my license still has my girly name. That was on the ticket correctly, but under gender it said "UNKNOWN." Still, I get the occasional "miss" or "ma'am;" I just try to remember that I got called sir back when I had long hair and wore girly clothes. If someone doesn't know who I am, that's their problem, not mine. I know I'm a man.

Dean

I think thats a fantastic perspective to have and I guess it must come with time - the fact i'm a self conscious mess right now prolly isn't helping much either...

Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 06:50:14 AM
I swear people have some sort of vendetta to make me say my name and gender so much this week...

What's really got me though is that I didn't expect it, at all. To feel like that. I thought I could deal with it and it turns out I can't and I know that I'll get this a lot.. god its depressing

That's what forced me to do the legal name change.  I couldn't take it anymore.

Quote from: Kate on May 23, 2007, 11:05:05 AM
Yep, I hear ya. It was the same with me. It seems the more you accept who you are, the more those pronouns hurt. And *especially* as you start transitioning and trying to LIVE for real finally... wrong pronouns REALLY hurt.

As in "breaking down and crying" kind of hurt.

It's good that I'm not the only one - i dunno i felt a bit silly at first but its driving me increasingly nuts...

Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 11:13:45 AM
I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...

Y'know, maybe that guy wasn't asking "is that miss?" because 'Miss' is what he saw, but because he wasn't sure. Which means that the fact that you've stopped dressing as a girl is having a social effect, and a serious one. Old son, that guy was not asking if you are married.

I hardly notice wrong pronouns unless I'm having a lousy time already. But I hate the wrong titles and grind my teeth a little every time I get called "Miss" or "Ma'am" or "Lady." I can see it, with the pronouns or calling me a "woman" 'cause yeah, my female sex is fairly obvious to most people on second-glance. The other stuff feels like a deliberate attempt to circumvent my gender-presentation and 'correct' me. The worst is the "Ma'am" delivered in the tone of "I am so clever, I figured out what you are!" triumph. Yeah, thank you, Danielle our waitress for tonight, it took a great deal of clever to come up with the wrong answer when I'm broadcasting the right one in such an obviously deliberate way.

I do occassionally correct the missplaced 'Miss' by saying, "Sir, thank you," and nothing has come of this. Yeah, people don't generally take it seriously, but nobody's had a flying fit about it. They usually don't start 'sir'ing me either, but they do drop the titles entirely, which is better than 'Miss.'

Keira's comments about French are interesting. I wish I knew some trans people who were Thai speakers. I wonder how much easier it might be to be trans in Thai. I understand that in Thai, the only gendered pronouns are "I" and "me" while the equivalents of "He/she him/her his/hers" are all gender-neutral. So you announce your own gender in that language, but never announce that of others unless you're outright saying, "Billie is a girl." I bet this makes transitions a heck of a lot easier on Thai trans-folks, and on everybody around them.

why do we get so upset over simple wordage and other people's ignorance? I had co-worker at a part-time job ask "will that be all sir?" when i was shopping int the store once. There were several people around and he immediately realized his faux paus. He began apologizing and i just kept on laughing. Every now and then friends and family still let a he or him slip out but nothing is meant to be corrective by any means. When people are trying to be condescending then I don't see the need to sink to their level and let it bother me. They are the one with insecurity issues, not me.

Quote from: Doc on May 24, 2007, 07:04:34 PM

Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 23, 2007, 11:13:45 AM
I mean ive stopped dressing as girl (not that I did anyway much so it wasnt that much of a change) and tend to hide in baggyish things and the one pair of jeans i have left. I've tossed everything else out so im left with one change of clothes that needs to be washed regularly cause its all i wear. it makes me feel like the small step ive taken so far, isnt even taken seriously. I know i cant blame the guy for saying as he saw, i just hate *what* he saw, if you get me...

Y'know, maybe that guy wasn't asking "is that miss?" because 'Miss' is what he saw, but because he wasn't sure. Which means that the fact that you've stopped dressing as a girl is having a social effect, and a serious one. Old son, that guy was not asking if you are married.

I hardly notice wrong pronouns unless I'm having a lousy time already. But I hate the wrong titles and grind my teeth a little every time I get called "Miss" or "Ma'am" or "Lady." I can see it, with the pronouns or calling me a "woman" 'cause yeah, my female sex is fairly obvious to most people on second-glance. The other stuff feels like a deliberate attempt to circumvent my gender-presentation and 'correct' me. The worst is the "Ma'am" delivered in the tone of "I am so clever, I figured out what you are!" triumph. Yeah, thank you, Danielle our waitress for tonight, it took a great deal of clever to come up with the wrong answer when I'm broadcasting the right one in such an obviously deliberate way.

I do occassionally correct the missplaced 'Miss' by saying, "Sir, thank you," and nothing has come of this. Yeah, people don't generally take it seriously, but nobody's had a flying fit about it. They usually don't start 'sir'ing me either, but they do drop the titles entirely, which is better than 'Miss.'

Keira's comments about French are interesting. I wish I knew some trans people who were Thai speakers. I wonder how much easier it might be to be trans in Thai. I understand that in Thai, the only gendered pronouns are "I" and "me" while the equivalents of "He/she him/her his/hers" are all gender-neutral. So you announce your own gender in that language, but never announce that of others unless you're outright saying, "Billie is a girl." I bet this makes transitions a heck of a lot easier on Thai trans-folks, and on everybody around them.

It's funny cause I totally didn't think about it like that. I guess I tend to expect the worst from people and end up angering myself possibly unnecessarily as a result. I guess he could have been checking cause he wasn't sure, I just tend to think of it as him being generally trying to annoy me. A habit that I will need to get out of. Yeah I think the worst case is really when people know but feel the need to smarmily point it out. It's sad that people cant look and see 'people' without making it a little game to guess the gender really. I guess no matter how confident / sure you are its always a knock to the system. I hope that gets a little better with time.

The Thai thing is so interesting, I didn't actually know that till now. I used to find it frustrating that in spanish it was the masculine/feminine table and such. But I dunno I wish i lived there now, sort of

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 07:51:49 AM
why do we get so upset over simple wordage and other people's ignorance? I had co-worker at a part-time job ask "will that be all sir?" when i was shopping int the store once. There were several people around and he immediately realized his faux paus. He began apologizing and i just kept on laughing. Every now and then friends and family still let a he or him slip out but nothing is meant to be corrective by any means. When people are trying to be condescending then I don't see the need to sink to their level and let it bother me. They are the one with insecurity issues, not me.

I asked myself the same question, why do I when it is purely their own ignorance but at the same time I've always been the kind to apologise for peoples ignorance at constantly being called 'a big dyke' and suchlike. I'd look as if to apologise for my dressing the way I'd like to. It's a hard habit to crack but I'll give it a good shot.

Quote from: Judge Yourself on May 25, 2007, 08:36:49 AM
It's funny cause I totally didn't think about it like that. I guess I tend to expect the worst from people and end up angering myself possibly unnecessarily as a result. I guess he could have been checking cause he wasn't sure, I just tend to think of it as him being generally trying to annoy me.

Sure, maybe he was sure you're female and was asking to be a prick and give you a hard time for having an ambiguous gender-presentation. Though at this point, hey, that in itself can be considered a triumph -- whatever it is he saw, it wasn't a female who looks like a girl.

QuoteI guess no matter how confident / sure you are its always a knock to the system. I hope that gets a little better with time.

Y'know, when I was really tiny I was dissapointed to discover that I was female. But when I was five or six years old, people would always ask me, "Are you a boy or a girl?" and when I was five or six years old and I'd just look at them and smile. It was only later that it became a knock to the system, after it had been firmly displayed to me that any "Are you a boy or a girl?" kid wouldn't be allowed in the reindeer games. I wonder now if a lot (though clearly not all) of my adult annoyance with that sort of thing is leftover from that rejection. You and I are both adults now and we can make our own reindeer games and find our own pals to play them -- my friends and my spouse and many members of my family think that my masculine-presentation-female-body thing is way cool.  So do quite a number of random people I run across, actually. There were some clients who came into my work today, took one look at me and had that, "Right ON!" look. And hey, I gotta agree, I look cool.

Confidence sure helps. Probably time does, too -- time to work out the fear crap. But I dunno, probably it won't really go away. The other day I was furiously annoyed 'cause somebody told me my shoes are 'cute.' Huh? They're ordinary casual men's shoes, what's 'cute'? And huh? Why am I so annoyed about a compliment?

QuoteThe Thai thing is so interesting, I didn't actually know that till now. I used to find it frustrating that in spanish it was the masculine/feminine table and such. But I dunno I wish i lived there now, sort of

Yeah, I totally wish our language worked like Thai. I betcha if it did, I would be a lot happier and people would treat me more the way they treat men, because I would 'I' myself masculine and implant that in their little brains. Though really, in a lot of ways they do treat me male already, in spite of all the 'she's. People keep asking me to fix stuff, for one.

Speaking of masculine and feminine tables, your assignment this week is to call all people and animals 'it' and refer to all inanimate objects by gendered pronouns. Gender them 'inappropriately' too, to make it even more fun -- call the electric drill 'she' and the refrigerator 'he.'

Language is a funny, funny thing - haha. I accept that bit of homework - though my flatmate might think I'm a little odd, though i think he does already so thats alright. I hate being called and anything i wear called 'cute' too, though I guess its different in the states to be called that than it is in the UK. And as for people asking you to fix stuff - thats awesome, lets just hope all that confidence translates into  some damn good DIY !  I however, suck at most practical things - unless its lifting stuff - I can manage that haha. I guess I didnt get the 'girl or boy' looks till i cut my hair the first time properly a yr or so ago and that bit of confusion was always better than as you say not being seen as 'a female who looks like a girl'