I can only tell you what makes me feel feminine.  Having a lovely smelly bubbly bath and a lovely smelly body lotion afterwards. Experimenting with my hair, up or down or chopped or whatever, deciding which earrings look best with what hair and clothes. A bottle of expensive perfume. Spray the air with it and walk in it.  Giving myself a manicure and pedicure. Giving myself facials.  I love to go to the salon and get my hair styled every week if possible. I also love lingerie, and naturally I like to cook for my man while he feeds me compliments about how good my cooking is. A man can make a woman feel girly just by saying little things that they know we would like to hear.

Quote from: Feral Cat on April 06, 2007, 12:53:30 AM
---snip---

The title is "What Makes a Woman Very Sexy", by Julia Grice.  It was written for natal women, but it can be applied to transwomen as well. It covers things like walking, talking, toying with your hair, smiling and shrugging your shoulders..... all the subtleties that make a woman a woman. Most of it is based on a plethora of surveys that Julia conducted amongst men.

----snip----

On you say, I just ordered a used copy of that book from Amazon.com for $4.00. Not bad!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0396089615/ref=dp_olp_2/104-0912886-1758325

I don't think any book can teach one to be sexy unless, of course, I decide to write one!

Quote from: Jeannette on May 23, 2007, 02:49:13 AM
I can only tell you what makes me feel feminine...

All that stuff is great but getting called the B word or the C word is what does it for me.

Myself, I like women who are buff and a little on the butch side yet with a pretty face. I met this woman the other night with really nice arms, yeah arms, SEXY!!! We flirted but it didn't go further, but I will see her around, she is a recovering addict and alcoholic like me so I will see her around town at meetings, so...

The C word?....LOL  ...are you serious? yeah, I guess it could in a way....   I was called the C word once and all I did was laughed, for I found it amusing.

tink

The C word to me is a rite of passage, it means you have arrived, girl!

Only got called it a couple times, only caused I am all sweetness and light! LOL

What I am about to say is most likely going to really get under the skin of a lot of people. First of all, how does long hair and breast equal being feminine? If this is truly the case then I would love to see you tell that a breast cancer survivor who went through chemo and had a double-mastectomy to save her life. Nearly every aspect listed by people and is usually the general consensus, deals with purely superficial extras that go along with being feminine. Make-up, clothing, legs, mannerisms, and all the other societal induced reasons are all based on one thing. The perspective of men towards women.

Even the books you are recommending to one another are based upon the surveys of men. Has anyone ever read any feminist or women's liberation literature? The hair and the make-up and the boobs are all great but they do define femininity by any stretch of the imagination. As one person said, it is the soul. femininity comes from with your being and exudes through your personality. We put high heels and lipstick on a pig and it isn't going to make it a woman.

I used to see the world as it has been stated in here before i was with my last girlfriend. she is a feminist. Not in the sense of men are evil and burn all the bras. She is very much a sex in the city kind of girl but she also believes in no objectification of women. She taught me and showed me all of the hellish things women have to go through to try and survive day to day in our society. I saw what an jerk I was before then and it really helps me spot the jerks now when i am out and about.

Being sexy is great and being a girly girl is awesome. But not of that makes anyone feminine at all. What it does is makes a person more attractive to the other people. Being attractive and being feminine may not always coincide with one another. I for one enjoy doing my make-up and having my hair done. Once i get done writing this long diatribe, i am going to watch movies and do my nails. I am not feminine for what i do. I am feminine for who I am.

My opinion of why so many TS see femininity as all of the girly girl superficial BS is because throughout their lives they didn't have to be indoctrinated into the world of gender biased at all. Before we all made the choice to live how we felt we should we were all men in the eyes of society. With that assumption came much privilege and power. For those years we were given an expectation of what a woman should be. It was based on the things people in here seem to think make a woman a woman. It is those male expectations of femininity that TS women bring into their new gender roles. 

If any of you ever wonder why genetic woman think we are just men is dresses simply look at some of the ways femininity is so blatantly objectified by the TS community and you will see why. We no longer want the stigma of being referred to as men and want to be seen as woman but so many of us have no concept of what being a woman is really about. It would seem that all most TS women only have the male ideal when it comes to what femininity really is.

In closing I would like to recommend a list of books that weren't written from surveys taken by men.

http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Myth-Images-Against-Women
http://www.amazon.com/Body-Project-Intimate-History-American
http://www.amazon.com/Wimp-Factor-Politics-Anxious-Masculinity
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Girls-Are-Growing-Female
http://www.amazon.com/Womens-America-Refocusing-Linda-Kerbe
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Liberty-Sara-Evans

Renae, you go girl!

Actually, the women that I find the sexiest are womyn that some males would deride as Diesel Dykes! Actually, it's more like a femme butch type that drives me insane!

But this false (male) ideal that is being conveyed here by a couple of the posters quite frankly nauseates me. OTOH I am not sure these posters are even for real as them being bona fide TS women, they might be wannabes or just guys getting their jollies off.

I know men try to sneak onto the gay women forums all the time.

While I somehow agree that men's view of women play a big part in how TS want to be viewed, saying that many women don't feel the same, or are not partner in this vision, is poppycock. It comes from a feminist opinion that I cannot adhere too; if women want to be pretty or sexy, its not all men's fault!!!

Women's view of themselves is much more complex than that. They adhere to all sorts of view which at first glance seems contradictory, spending so much time worrying about how they look, but also about their carreers, their children, their family. They want to be all, sexy one day, a super mother another day, an activist another day. If a TS want to be brillant girly girl there a plenty of that kind of normal girls in the worlds and I don't see them as any less worthy of emulation than a frumpy brilliant feminist.

My own opinion is that those that do FFS appeal by default to an idealized view of a beautifull woman, doing more than the minimum it takes to pass. For whom do we do this!!! Men? Yes. Themselves? Yes. It can be both. Myself, I think I look less manish and more beautiful. I'd say that both things entered consideration when selecting to do FFS.  If my idea of beauty or being female would be to have DD size breasts, so what? It may not be your cup of soup, but so what! There are plenty of women doing so and they are not all bimbos or slaves to men's view; they have their own mind.

My point was not that natural women don't do it as well but that doesn't make them feminine. "That" does not define femininity at all. It just defines how we present ourselves to the world at large. I brought this topic up with a good friend of mine who has a masters degree in women's studies. The answer I was given was it all has to do with circles. Mother earth, round; the moon goddess, round; boobs, round. Masculinity is usually associated with straight, rigid lines. Femininity is more softer and curvy lines. Look at handwriting between the genders. Male handwriting tends to be very sharp and straight lines where as women's is usually curvy and smoother. another key example is facial gestures. Most men are very stoic and straight faced. Women smile constantly and for no reason at all sometimes. If we want to really break it down, look at a penis versus a vagina. One is straight and hard and the other is soft and round.

Where do we get our definitions of what femininity is? If we go by modern media then we are big burly ugly men in dresses. Magazines, TV, movies, and advertisements all glamorize the ideal of being a size 2 with double d boobs. That wasn't the case back a few hundred years ago. Women with some meat on them were the pick of the litter. It meant they were wealthy and healthy since they ate good. There are too many degrees of comparison of one meaning to another when it comes to femininity.

To me it would be the ability to embrace the inner softness of ourselves.

Quote from: Keira on May 24, 2007, 10:03:02 PM

Women's view of themselves is much more complex than that. They...

They???

What makes us feminine is being ourselves, I finally "came out" today in my women's recovery group, in that I discussed my upcoming SRS and some of my transitioning struggles. It was the first time that I talked about my TG issues. It was truly a spiritual experience as the women embraced me and confirmed my womanhood in a way that I could only imagine in the past.

Assuming one really is a woman and not a wannabee (and please I am not implying anyone here fits that derivation) if one just lets her true self emerge, her true feminine self will become evident.

After the group, we all went out for coffee, I brought up some of the problems that we are facing in the co-ed groups (the men try to dominate the group with stupid, off-topic guy bull->-bleeped-<-) turns out I emerged today as not just another woman in the group but as a leader! Gosh, pinch me! I never dreamed that would happen.

And what is really uncanny is that almost every woman felt exactly as I did about the situation with the clueless men. It is kind of scary, sometimes we have doubts about our true womanness, I know I do.

Today, all those doubts were stripped away forever. I tell you, it is an amazing feeling.

The "They", is a stylistic device to create a narrative detachment. Often used in journalism though not often in opinion pieces I admit. Anyway... whatever... You do tend to fixate on the non-sequitur sometimes Melissa :-).

A feminine woman is someone who speaks politely, carries herself well, dresses trendy or chic but never slutty or too revealing. Someone who flirts but doesnt throw herself on men.  Someone with manners and class! but by no means does this suggest that a woman cant have a personality and style and that she cant be herself. A woman can also be feminine when she sticks up for herself in a respectful way (without shouting obscenities), knows how to present herself and lets her personality and strong will shine through.

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:31:29 AM

The "They", is a stylistic device to create a narrative detachment. Often used in journalism though not often in opinion pieces I admit. Anyway... whatever... You do tend to fixate on the non-sequitur sometimes Melissa :-).

Kiera, I can't imagine speaking about what makes a woman feminine and referring to women in the third party plural, unless speaking about a specific group of women. I am not going to crucify you but I think I did you and the group a favor by pointing this out,   and I received a PM from a moderator applauding this post.

I feel it's really vital that we, in every thought and deed, assert our own femininity, if we don't how are we to expect society to accept us as women. It's really irrelevant what we think of femininity in the observation of other women, what counts is how we individually feel, i.e. what makes us feel feminine.

Quote from: Pia on May 25, 2007, 03:03:22 AM
A feminine woman is someone who speaks politely, carries herself well, dresses trendy or chic but never slutty or too revealing. Someone who flirts but doesnt throw herself on men.  Someone with manners and class! but by no means does this suggest that a woman cant have a personality and style and that she cant be herself. A woman can also be feminine when she sticks up for herself in a respectful way (without shouting obscenities), knows how to present herself and lets her personality and strong will shine through.

Hmmm...I must be "hanging out" with masculine women then because the women in my circles including myself use judicious use of "obscenities" to make our points. Nothing like the use of the correct expletive to get one's point across IMNSHO.

I ain't no damn Blanche Dubois, [forget] that!

i see nothing wrong with stating the feminine physical ideal, although id add more curves personally  *shrugs*

doesnt automatically make her pretty, young, and passable, the 3 arnt neceserily congruant passibility has no age limit.
leave her alone...

Quote from: Lori on May 22, 2007, 08:37:21 PM
the younger and prettier the reps

When the competition gets going....the tough get very feminine. They work out, get their hair done, boob jobs, and are just drop dead beautiful. What makes them feminine? Competition from other women trying to outdo their beauty. Women have their beauty and they will pull out every trick, tip and fashion idea to outdo the threat. They will act very coy and girly around the male Dr's but when he turns his back, out come her fangs and claws if she senses another drug rep nearby. Its a cut throat industry and these gals are armed to the teeth with femininity.

They?

If I catch one more woman here referring to women in the third person plural, I am going to start making y'all turn in your membership cards.

I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other.  
So for me a feminine woman is a woman who is at ease with herself. It is expressed in the way she dresses, highlighting her attributes, in the way she moves and deports herself in a fluid, sensuous and gracious manner, the way she smiles, the way her eyes sparles, the way she might throw her head back when laughing, the way she might touch you gently when talking or listening to you. She shines, happy and confident to be herself. It has nothing to do with trying to fit an image imposed by outside expectations. Anyway this is my definition, this is also the way I feel (and I hope I come across) when I feel feminine.

HLLL&R

Maebh

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:06:01 AM

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:31:29 AM

Hmmm...I must be "hanging out" with masculine women then because the women in my circles including myself use judicious use of "obscenities" to make our points. Nothing like the use of the correct expletive to get one's point across IMNSHO.

I ain't no damn Blanche Dubois, forget that!

That is one thing that i have found out after being accepted into the inner circles of womanhood as well. Women use the F word, they talk about sex, and they let their opinions be known. emotions and feelings go into the conversations a lot of time as well. So maybe being able to express emotions without shame or guilt is another aspect of being feminine. This would be a good reason why so many TS women get called "men in dresses." So maybe as a countermeasure to this we end up with TS women who are so over the top feminine in their actions that is almost as if they are an animated character. Is it just typical overcompensation of something for the sake of keeping the male ego in tact?

Next!

Quote from: Maebh on May 25, 2007, 08:17:58 AM
I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other. 

I certainly concur but as a feminist I must say that it is a little disturbing to read that so many of us cling to the patriarchal ideal of femininity.

Quote from: Rachael on May 25, 2007, 08:16:18 AM
i see nothing wrong with stating the feminine physical ideal, although id add more curves personally  *shrugs*

doesnt automatically make her pretty, young, and passable, the 3 arnt neceserily congruant passibility has no age limit.
leave her alone...

If we are discussing the matter of passibility in a social setting then yes, most of the superficial BS will get you through. However, when the expected femininity of such portrayal is found not to be there a person is left stigmatized as not passing when someone calls them a "man in a dress"

I do realize that my extremist views may upset or rub some people the wrong way but it the way i view the world around me based upon what i have seen and done.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:24:05 AM

Quote from: Maebh on May 25, 2007, 08:17:58 AM
I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other. 

I certainly concur but as a feminist I must say that it is a little disturbing to read that so many of us cling to the patriarchal ideal of femininity.

People hold true what they believe is true. Look at organized religion. Only with questioning the world around us can we truly understand why we are the way we are in any circumstance of life.

Renae, your avatar screams femininity as much as any that I have seen here yet you challenge the "accepted" (patrairchal) tenets of femininity. (the Blanche Dubois/Scarlett O'Hara types)

In my drug/alcohol and sexually addicted days, I dated a lot of ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s and all of them claimed that they liked "Tgirls" because they were more feminine than GGs. What they were really saying is that they couldn't handle assertiveness in women and were looking for subservient women, which, thank God, is rare these days.

Needless to say I didn't have much "success" in establishing any kind of a relationship with any of these men.

BTW I might comment that this forum seems to have changed a lot in that women here are posting strong views and sometimes controversial ones, which is great, as long as we can agree to disagree civilly, I know that I can be a real bitch especially in my early recovery (66 days clean and sober after 44 years of alcohol and drug use)
but nothing I say here should be taken personally, it's not meant to be, anyway.

Remember, when we are here, we are family, (like that restaurant?) we might bicker and disagree but it doesnt mean we are not a sisterhood.

I want to thank Susan for giving us this opportunity to express our views, I hope we, including myself, can continue to do so in a respectful manner.