Quote from: Jayr on November 04, 2012, 08:50:22 PMBut what works for some, might not work for others.

Exactly.

This is what I'm getting at. People are arguing about what "true transexualism" is and is not. People fail to realize that it is different for everyone. By arguing about "true transisexualisn" we pretend to know who is the "real deal" and who is not. We think we know who is "really trans" based on a blog or post on some website and go on crusades against "fakers" and "trenders" to uphold the "truth" for those who are really suffering. The thing is, not everyone is ashamed of being trans or of their medical condition. Just like some people aren't ashamed of being deaf or blind and both of those medical conditions have "communities" like trans people do. What's the difference? I think some people are just angry about their own situations and are taking it out on other people. That lacks maturity.

Quote from: Ave on November 05, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
technically isn't the very definition of GID something that's in your brain? And physical treatments exist now because that is the best way to treat GID...

I never once said I agreed with my medical condition being classified a mental disorder.

If someone asked; I was born with a hormone deficiency/imbalance.
That is all. Nothing concerning my mental health.

I see it as a medical condition and nothing else. I really don't understand why anyone would not see it as such. i did not get to read through all of these responses because i dont have time right now but i can't wait to. It is a medical condition which is corrected through medical means. Being gay is an identity because it's part of like your personality, transsexualism is purely a medical thing.

Quote from: spacerace on November 04, 2012, 07:50:19 PM
scenario: It is the future and you are pre-transition. Medical science diagnoses you with GID. Insurance determines it is cheaper to use a new psychiatric medication to fix your brain instead of treating your body.

You can take a pill and wake up loving your body as it is. Do make that choice?

Or do you acknowledge your identity, pay for surgery and take hormones to validate it?

What if the choice is not yours to make due to age or some other reason?

Relying on external confirmation to diagnosis a medical condition tied to self identity can always lead to denying someone's individual right to be the person they need to be to pursue maximum happiness.

Edit: I feel compelled to clarify it is indeed a medical condition.  The issue is why does this mean it cannot also be seen as an identity that has value?

I'd take the pill. I'm surprised no one else would. Even with nearly completing my medical transition I still have dysphoria. I'd rather be a girl with no dysphoria than a guy who does have dysphoria. I'd give anything to be cisgender

Quote from: mangoslayer on November 05, 2012, 09:47:39 PM
I'd take the pill. I'm surprised no one else would. Even with nearly completing my medical transition I still have dysphoria. I'd rather be a girl with no dysphoria than a guy who does have dysphoria. I'd give anything to be cisgender

I would take the pill as well.  I can related to the bolded so much.

Quote from: Ave on November 05, 2012, 02:48:46 PM
I'm sorry, but since when does being male automatically mean jerk? There are plenty of regular masculine guys who don't act like jerks and act pretty honorably.

Notice the part about becoming a stereotypical male...it's difficult to pretend to be someone you're not and yet not be stereotypical.

And...it was the first thing that I could think of as a stereotype. I could have used other examples but I thought most people would understand what I meant.

I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.

Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 06, 2012, 01:29:11 PM
Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.

Reading some posts you can tell people don't know the difference between the two.

I don't see it as a "defect". Especially since I'm autistic and don't like to be called "defective" or other nasty things for that too.

I don't want to be "cured", in the sense of being made "normal" and no longer myself. I am a guy and I was labelled wrongly at birth. I also have a disconnect between my body perception and actual shape, so I'll have corrective surgery in order to make my body perception and shape line up properly.

Would I choose to be like this even though cis people often react really adversely to my existence? YES. I don't choose for them to hate me. I just refuse to hate myself any longer and I also won't tread on others just to appease a system that won't like me any better anyway.

Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

I would take the pill as long as the chance was very slight.  After all it would be unrealistic to expect our personalities to be the same when we've got rid of the dysphoria and everything that comes with being trans.

However the other hypothetical situation -- becoming a cis woman -- I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.  I suppose it would be like going from being English to Chinese, they're both perfectly good things to be, if that's what you are.  But the culture difference would be one heck of a shock, and I'm not Chinese so it would be wrong for me to become Chinese, I would feel fake and a traitor to my English birth.  In the same way, I don't think I would ever feel truly female even with such a magic pill because I would have spent X amount of years as male.  Or if I was okay with being a cis woman then I'd feel like I must have been a fraud calling myself a man if something as simple as a pill could take that away.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

I don't know, because if I was cisfemale, then I wouldn't have to deal with rejection. But even though in this hypothetical situation, the pill would make me happily cisfemale, I can't even imagine being a woman. I can't imagine ever being OK with my female body, how that would feel. Being happily cismale is easier to envision as a reality, lol.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

Take the pill. Like i said before. I'd give anything to be cis.

Quote from: .caleb on November 06, 2012, 07:42:10 PM
I don't know, because if I was cisfemale, then I wouldn't have to deal with rejection. But even though in this hypothetical situation, the pill would make me happily cisfemale, I can't even imagine being a woman. I can't imagine ever being OK with my female body, how that would feel. Being happily cismale is easier to envision as a reality, lol.

You read that wrong and are getting it confused with the first hypothetical that was posted.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 07:55:48 PM
You read that wrong and are getting it confused with the first hypothetical that was posted.

Oh! Well then it's not even a question. I'd be cismale, hands down. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, to be honest...anyone who is close to me knows how this wears at my self-worth almost daily.

Quote from: Green_Tony on November 06, 2012, 04:33:47 PM
I don't see it as a "defect". Especially since I'm autistic and don't like to be called "defective" or other nasty things for that too.

I agree on both counts (autism and trans). It is a difference. Maybe not always so convenient.

--Jay J

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

Take the pill.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
I feel like the influx of people coming out as trans has to do with confusion of stereotypical gender roles vs gender identity.

Can you explain what you mean more specifically?

Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 06, 2012, 01:29:11 PM
Or it could be that it's much easier to do on the internet and more information is available than even 10 years ago. Once you get offline, you see how small the trans population really is.

This is a contributing factor for sure - also people now (as in, 2012) are generally more willing to try and be themselves; especially since they see other people doing it on the Internet who end up leading fuller, happier lives.  It is nice to see that other people have the courage to go through with it when the challenges of transitioning seem overwhelming.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 06, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Here's a hypothetical:

It's the future, there is a pill that will make you physically and biologically cis male (female if there are any MTFs reading) but there's a chance it will change your personality slightly, not in any way that you would be a completely different person.  The other option is to continue to be in your birth sex's body and have to transition through medical intervention.  What do you do?

Of course I would take the pill, without a doubt.  But that does not mean I will pass judgment on anyone who wouldn't.  Darrin is right when he mentioned that it is sorta analogous to the deaf community - though I am in no way comparing being trans to being deaf.  A deaf person can take pride in who they are and consider being deaf as a part of their identity,  while simultaneously still wanting to hear if given the choice. Conversely, there are people who would benefit from cochlear implants that do not choose to use them.

I would take the pill to have a male body to match my male brain.  I would never take a pill to make my male brain match a female body because I identity as male.  One pill is affirming; the other seems like a tranquilizer to lull you into denial of your identity.  I don't strive to be generically cis-gendered just for the sake of being normal.  I want to be myself, and I am male.

Also - taking testosterone is all ready a medication trying to  make your body more physically and biologically male, while also having the chance to slightly alter your personality.  It's just not as magical as the future pill; it is not complete or quick, with it you also still need surgery, etc.    The choice is 'do you want to transition the old ineffective way (hormones and surgery) or the new way (magic one stop pill)'. I'll take the completely successful method, easily.

I wouldn't call my "female brain" a defect because it is my identity; it is who I am on a core level. Although, I might call my body a medical problem; but I don't think I could go as far as to call it defective.

IMO (disclaimer), there is no such thing in our world as "a real girl"; unless one wants to start fighting over semantics and biology. On the social level, all girls are as real as they are (unless they are pretending to fit in with their GAAB).

No real girl will ever fit the stereotype of "girl". This is a matter of practicality (living a fulfilling life) and not abstract philosophical arguments. (By the way I looooove philosophy; just not when it treats people like unfeeling objects)

I just thought I would mention this because in the Trans community we have this "real transgender girl" stereotype going around. Or "Transier than thou".

And yes I would take the pill to make my body match my mind. Making my mind match my body would effectively be suicide of my identity.

-Skye