Quote from: SarahM777 on September 25, 2012, 11:18:47 AM
Is it really all that important to insist that the story of Jonah is a factual account or is more important to get the message of the account? I am beginning to wonder if it truly matters if one does or does not believe some of the finer points. Will it matter in the end?

It's an allegorical story, recorded long ago from oral traditions. That's how I look at it. It's hard to see these stories as anything else. In my mind, they aren't possible, practical, or believable.

Nineveh was not found until the mid 1800's either. For a long time it was questioned about Pilate also until 1961 when they located the Pilate stone. The interesting part of the finding of it was that they had reused the stone,it was a part of the stairs for a theater. So wouldn't it make sense that for some cities,you would not find a whole lot of rubble as it may have been recycled and reused? If you had perfectly good stones wouldn't it be easier to use stones that are already cut to size instead of cutting new stone out of a quarry? Considering that they did it by hand?

According to the Bible I read, God created the world.

If God can create the world, how big of a leap of faith is it to accept that God can make a fish large enough to swallow Jonah. 

Since I beleive in a God of miracles, I have no problem accepting what seems impossible to others.

Its called Faith (or it is to me).

Quote from: tekla on November 13, 2012, 02:11:35 PM

19th Century scientists and archaeologists went to great lengths to try to use modern scientific evidence and methods to true the Bible stories (and other ancient myths/legends/stories/tales) and had much success.  (parting of the Red Sea, the story of Jericho, the existence of Troy)  But they also managed to conclusively prove that some of those stories could not have happened in the way the book recounts - as with Jonah and the belly of the whale.

That is only if you leave God out of the equation. If science could really duplicate the ones that would seem impossible to our minds then are they really miracles? God being all powerful and knowing how He created things to work,would it be outside the realm of improbability that He would be able to change some molecules,or to suspend the natural order of things for a time,or for that matter to override nature itself if He so chooses?

Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 14, 2012, 09:34:02 AM
According to the Bible I read, God created the world.

If God can create the world, how big of a leap of faith is it to accept that God can make a fish large enough to swallow Jonah. 

Since I beleive in a God of miracles, I have no problem accepting what seems impossible to others.

Its called Faith (or it is to me).

A chemist I was having a conversation with told me that he had a problem with the concept of faith saying, "I am a scientist and as such I need to have scientific and at least empirical proof of things!" I said, "Then you are telling me that as you look at chemical compounds and the composition of things that exist you then must realize that there is balance, order and symmetry in the universe that couldn't just be happenstance but is evidence of intelligent creation?" He agreed. I went on, "Then you are obviously a well educated and intelligent man, so you're not going to have the audacity to tell me that you bought in to the concept that we all morphed out of some primordial sludge-pot initially from some single celled life form are you?" He said no, and agreed that he had just gotten somewhat of a handle of what faith is all about. Faith is the confidence in things hoped for and assurance about things not seen!

What makes the story of Jonah important is that it was used by Jesus as the only sign given to an adulterous people.
There is an old song "If He Said It I Believe It".
Scripture shows us Jesus said that to speak against the Holy Ghost is blasphemy that will not be forgiven. Therefore I just believe it as if ever there was a man speaking by the Holy Ghost it was Jesus.
One portion of scripture in the King James Bible that points out the difference between those who have faith and those who do not also shows those who have faith are blessed.
Jesus told Thomas Because thou hast seen thou believest but blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. He didn't say Thomas was blessed.
All throughout the word of God it speaks of faith in things not seen and that which is impossible with man. As written in Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible and again The things which are impossible with man are not with God.
The word of God is pretty clear that without faith one cannot please God and the wrath of God abides on them in their unbelief. Like Sarah said that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.
If we can see those things that bear witness unto the Lord Jesus we do not have faith. We merely believe by sight. If we will only believe what God has said if we see evidence then we don't really count him as a faithful and true witness and our lack of belief in his honesty is a slap in his face.
It's not really a good thing to doubt the one who created us and can make the decision of whether we go to heaven or hell.
But, some will believe and some will not. Some will bear witness unto the greatness of his glory and others will mock.

I'm going to get my self in hot water here, but as a Christian I think that approaching the bible as a literal book is missing out on the big point.

for example: 2 Samuel 22 "God is my Rock,..." doesn't mean that God is a stone or some piece of granite or such.

The story of Jonah is not about the fish(whale) it's about the inevitability of doing what the Lord has commanded you to do.

Jonah gets ordered to send a message to Nineveh. At first Jonah either doesn't want to o doesn't heed the Lord's order, so he skips town and books a passage on a ship. The lord is not amused so he sends a storm to punish the ship. When the storm commences, Jonah, hides from the storm in his cabin. The crew has had enough of Jonah and then shoves him in the sea and God provides a fish for Jonah (Jonah spends the rest of his time praying inside the belly of the creature.

You can understand this as a child would and marvel about the fish and how Jonah managed to survive without air or such or you can learn something from the story.

The further Jonah escapes from God's will the closer he is to darkness, first away from land, then on a ship in a storm, then in a cabin below deck and finally inside the belly of the fish. But the Lord never forgets Jonah, all his hardships are the Lord's reminders. God Provided the whale (or fish) so Jonah would not drown, and in this darkness he prays until he returns to the light and commences doing God's will.

As a Christian I think the whole argument about taking the bible literally is silly, and am of the opinion that those who take it literally are somewhat misguided. It's not a history book.

Excellent point concerning the gist of what you have taken from the story Monica, meanwhile though I think the idea behind literal interpretation is intended to mean that we are not to parse out the parts we agree with from those that we either disagree with or are spiritually at odds with because of our condition as human beings. There is always a certain amount of common sense that applies. Here is a humorous example, and I'm not casting stones at anyone here either. I live in Washington state where the citizens have voted in favor of gay marriage and legalizing marijuana use and there's a joke going around that goes like this; "Gay marriage legalized on the same day as marijuana makes perfect biblical sense because:Leviticus 20:13 says: "A man who lays with another man should be stoned." One could take that old testament concept out of context and say that when two guys or gals sleep together they need to smoke a few fatties first! Pretty silly, but it makes my point about the business of literalism. 

Quote from: Shantel on November 16, 2012, 12:11:31 PM
"A man who lays with another man should be stoned."

That made my day. So, is being stoned a prerequisite?

Quote from: Tesla on November 16, 2012, 12:29:07 PM
That made my day. So, is being stoned a prerequisite?

I dunno... suppose it should go in the bad jokes thread! 

Quote from: Shantel on November 16, 2012, 12:11:31 PM
Leviticus 20:13 says: "A man who lays with another man should be stoned."

I love this quote Shantel, may be a bad joke but it definitely made me laugh.

While I agree with what Monica says about the spiritual significanses of the story of Jonah there are also the natural issues. For with God nothing is impossible.
The Lord spake of parables and used them as well as stories in the natural.
Many times we see that truth is referred to as his word. Temple is his body and so on.
Where those who rely on the meanings of given words and their root forms miss the mark is with the word being spiritually discerned.
When Jesus gave the parable about the seed sowed on 4 types of soil in the natural many walked away thinking he gave a good farming lesson. His disciples whom he chose however were given the spiritual side where the seed is the word and the ground is the heart. That word meant what Jesus said and not Strong's Concordance or any seminary teacher.
The Holy Ghost can reveal the "mystery" as brother Paul said that is what will separate the wheat from the chaff in the end. As written in Psalms 96:13 he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness and Jesus said sanctify them with thy truth, thy word is truth.
In other words he will judge the world by whether or not they believe and his people by what they believe. Hence, Paul's warning about deceivers waxing worse and worse in the last days.
It says his truth. Not what people want to believe. Not what the dictionary, seminary or concodance says is truth. What he says is truth and reveals by his Spirit.
It is very important that we believe the right thing. The devil can mock everything and make some great sermons that will lead people straight to hell. The Lord will allow it if that is what people want.
It is also written that deceivers would lead many astray with good words and fair speeches.
Sadly too many men today stand behind pulpits and do this.It may sound great to live your best life now or make every day like Friday but these teachings won't save anyone's soul. They go against the words of Jesus and it's not wise for these men to teach people things that will damn their soul. That is not love of any sort. That is greed and a desire to be as gods like in the garden of Eden.
I agree we cannot read the Bible as a secular book. We need to read it with obedience, reverence, love and fear of the one who died for our sins knowing that it is he who has the power and authority to open our eyes unto the truth or allow us to believe a lie and be damned.
The history, laws and prophets and miracles were all to glorify Jesus and teach us that it is he that pleases God and we can only please God through him.
The riches spoken of are wisdom and knowledge in the word of God and the salvation of our souls. Not worldly gain or fame.
As written, ye are  chosen unto salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
How can people be saved when they are not sanctified by the Spirit or they do not believe the truth?
Sadly, how many Christians don't even know what being sanctified by the Spirit is?
If they did the multitudes would not be doing the things they are in the name of Christ.
I believe the story of Jonah is both a spiritual teaching as this dear sister said and a warning as well. I also believe that he who spake the world into existance could make a great fish to carry a rebellious servant until he would repent and do as originally commanded.

And if Jonah had died in the belly of the fish God also has the power to have raise Jonah from the dead.

You know what my problem with the whole concept of nothing is impossible for the Lord is? It can be easily defeated by a childish thought experiment:

If nothing is impossible to God, then, can God make a Rock that weighs so much that even God cannot lift it?

For me, to say what God can or cannot do is beyond our capacity to comprehend as human beings, the whole concept of putting our petty desires and affirmations into what God is able or not doing seems ridiculous at its best and blasphemous at its worst.

As for what I believe, there was no whale and no fish. This is a story about the sadness that ensues when separating ourselves from God's will.

Good thing, that  I'm living in these times (but bad thing I'm not living in the future when we'll be able to get real female bodies with working wombs and the works), because this would have easily resulted in being declared a heretic in less illustrated and freedomless times.

In matters related to religion, it's going to be real hard getting someone to agree with your beliefs, so to each their own, I guess

The term faith comes to mind.

Faith is far from universal. 

And, as is increasingly common, faith seen as irrational and (as could be easily argued about Jonah and the Whale) a basic ignorance of - or deliberate ignoring of - reality.

So you have something that is a strong belief in something with no evidence and/or sometimes a strong belief in something even with evidence against it.  The philosopher Bertrand Russell aptly noted, "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round.  We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."  There is a great problem in that, for we all don't share the same emotions, or weight them equally in life.

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins criticizes all faith, describing it as a process of active non-thinking.  He states that it is a practice that only degrades our understanding of the natural world by allowing anyone to make a claim about nature that is based solely on their personal thoughts.

So, as we move away from these old stories and myths, and move into the current age and time - who should, and who should not have input as to how we are going to organize and conduct our societies?  Do we base them on what a couple of people personally believe or the emotions of a few people, or do we base them on something larger, something more readily proven and examined? 

On a micro-level do I want someone teaching my kids science if they think whales can eat people, hold them in their stomach for three days and then return them otherwise unharmed?  On the macro-level do we want to structure our entire society based on a what a couple of individuals think is true on a personal and emotional level only.

Monica,
God already has made a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.
Remember how the scriptures say that if his people would repent and turn back to him he would remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Remember how he hardened pharaoh's heart?
Spiritually speaking.
The Lord said the word is spirit and life.
Where people make mistakes is by looking at it from a carnal, or natural standpoint. It is written lean not unto your own understanding. His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. If we try to use our understanding or focus on the earthly things we will never see the spiritual things.
The multitudes of false prophets over the years have taken away the original gospel that some of us heard as children and in our youth.
Some of us have seen miracles back when the churches preached Christ and him crucified.
As the years passed and the gospel was changed into a carnal mess that has grown into doctrines and sermons that go against the words the disciples and apostles say Jesus spake the miracles ended. As written because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold. That love is Christ and he has departed from many today. They just don't see it.
David wrote in Psalms If I heed iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me. David was a prophet and man after God's own heart. If he said God would not hear him why do people claiming to be Christians insist that God will hear them when they love iniquity? Who do they think they are? It's no wonder prayers aren't answered and miracles ended when the church has strayed so far from Christ.
Sadly, when these people teach things that go against the words of Jesus they cannot see the devilish spirit that tells them they are a god. That they know more than Jesus. The word calls it a spirit of antichrist. 
It does matter what people believe about scripture as the Lord told his disciples that a time would come when men would kill his people thinking they do God service. If people do not believe the truth they can easily do such to the Lord's people. And that will not be a good thing.
May God bless.