At least I am not the only one that sees the errors in the ways of some.

Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.

What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in the world and refuse it.

What if you could do a painless quick Rhino, how many would do it?

If you don't do it because you will never have the funds, is it really
a choice? If your dirt poor, on the street and say you don't want SRS
is that really a choice to be a genderqueer or whatever...
Having to live with something is not the same thing as having a choice.

I have to live with not being able to have my own children, many GG are like that too, yet if someone offered to pay for me (say the public health care system paid for it), a not too dangerous way to have a functional female reproductive system, would I not be ecstatic and jump on it!!! Yes.

Many men live with baldness stoicly, but if you had a cheap, efficient way to restore a full head of hair, most would jump on that' even my best friend who's mostly bald and says he likes it like that. But, I know it really bothers him.

Assuming that all these woman would not do it is going
the total opposite direction than saying they would all do it.

I am going to state my mantra again since some seem to have a need to state theirs ad nauseum but there are an awful lot of women who are denial about their "need" for FFS. I see an awful lot of transwomen and most could benefit from at least one procedure or another and, quite frankly, most need some work. I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.

Yes, it is baffling, one of the promises of AA is that things that used to baffle us, will not as we reach clarity. Something tells me that this will continue to baffle me.

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM
What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in the world and refuse it.

What if you could do a painless quick Rhino, how many would do it?

I know, i for one can say that i would most certainly do any of the proposed procedures in order to enhance my physical being. I have seen friends go through surgical alterations and it didn't do a damn thing for their distaste of their life. All the BS that made their life hell before they went under the knife was still there when the bruising and swelling went away. This is my warped underground second-class citizen point of view of the beauty mindf**k being played on every person who is willing to fall for it.

My financial situation has nothing to do with my decision of whether or not some medial procedure is going to make me more attractive to other people. I could easily go out right now and have one of several procedures done without batting an eyelash.  I just happen to like my flat-chest, flabby ass, and tummy bulge a little too much to have them altered. I love my body and all of its "flaws" as some people would call them. I call them defining characteristics of who i am not what I was made to be.

This is starting to get out of the realm of informative and getting to be more personal than it should be.

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM

Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.

What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in
the world and refuse it.

Wells stated, Miss K

Amy, if you don't mind me asking, are you pre-op, post-op or non-op? If you are pre, can you tell me when you plan on SRS?

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:20:27 PM
I am going to state my mantra again since some seem to have a need to state theirs ad nauseum but there are an awful lot of women who are denial about their "need" for FFS. I see an awful lot of transwomen and most could benefit from at least one procedure or another and, quite frankly, most need some work. I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.

Yes, it is baffling, one of the promises of AA is that things that used to baffle us, will not as we reach clarity. Something tells me that this will continue to baffle me.

Maybe it has something to do with the water?

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:23:45 PM

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:50:09 PM

Amy, you skipped something in reading my reply.

What I said is that the only way you can say if yes or not
you would not do FFS or plastic surgery is to have it offered to
you on a silver platter by the best surgeon in
the world and refuse it.

Wells stated, Miss K

Amy, if you don't mind me asking, are you pre-op, post-op or non-op? If you are pre, can you tell me when you plan on SRS?

Pre, and yes I am planning SRS.
Like I said my issue is with my body, not my face. I am not exactly moved by media images of beauty or the idea of being beautiful, but I am absolutely frustrated with my male parts and my physical body as it stands. 

Without question I would pass on FFS and maybe the rhino as well(I would have to think long and hard).  FFS is not necessary and not even desired, and well the rhino...I am not sure if it would throw of my face, it would have to be minor.  I have no deep issues with my face though. 

As far as SRS and having a reproductive system, I would take it in a second, but those are different issues. 

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 02:20:27 PM
I am baffled as to why the transwomen in other places are so perfectly passable while the ones I see in the trans mecca of San Francisco are not.

Those that don't pass in other places all moved to SF because they thought it would be a more accepting environment.

Rhonda

very good theory!

People don't realize how insane the cost of living is in SFO and region (I've lived there so I know) for non professionals and are living hand to mouth. Hard to really take care of oneself when your barely ekking a living. There are so many homeless!!

Maybe because people know people there will be more tolerant than in Wisconsin, they put in less of an effort (or know that even though they don't have the money to pull it off, they will be accepted).

One of the women in our bi-weekly group is a refugee, she doesn't have money for electolysis or laser and has a very very dense beard (almost impossible to really cover). From her face to her her well defined muscled body, she doesn't pass at all. In every other city than Montreal and maybe SFO, she'd probably get beat on the street for defying the all mighty norm, yet in Montreal she survives.

Amy, I don't disagree, that everybody has a different view of what's female and in your book, beauty is not up there. That's noted.  But, you have to admit that his point of view is not the mainstream one. As long as the mainstream doesn't try to ram a FFS operation down your throat, why bother with trying to convince others that dare to subscribe to the "damned" ;-) mainstream view. Such point of view are not devellopped overnight and it has survived intact (and even has got stronger lately) to a 30 years feminist "assault".

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 05:02:13 PM

People don't realize how insane the cost of living is in SFO and region (I've lived there so I know) for non professionals and are living hand to mouth. Hard to really take care of oneself when your barely ekking a living. There are so many homeless!!

Maybe because people know people there will be more tolerant than in Wisconsin, they put in less of an effort (or know that even though they don't have the money to pull it off, they will be accepted).

One of the women in our bi-weekly group is a refugee, she doesn't have money for electolysis or laser and has a very very dense beard (almost impossible to really cover). From her face to her her well defined muscled body, she doesn't pass at all. In every other city than Montreal and maybe SFO, she'd probably get beat on the street for defying the all mighty norm, yet in Montreal she survives.

Amy, I don't disagree, that everybody has a different view of what's female and in your book, beauty is not up there. That's noted.  But, you have to admit that his point of view is not the mainstream one. As long as the mainstream doesn't try to ram a FFS operation down your throat, why bother with trying to convince others that dare to subscribe to the "damned" ;-) mainstream view. Such point of view are not devellopped overnight and it has survived intact (and even has got stronger lately) to a 30 years feminist "assault".

It is a big reason why I despise the mainstream media, and I am part of the feminist assault on the concept of beauty that the mainstream media presents. I am a third wave feminist, a transsexual riot grrl at my very core.  I am not sure the mainstream media has necessarily grown stronger, last I checked it has grown weaker with the rise and democratization of media that the internet brought.   The sub-culture with its heavy feminist leanings in the US is as strong as ever because it has been the primary benefactor of the internet, and third wave feminism is beginning to bleed into the mainstream dialog (though it is often through stand up comics). As far as publications Bust and Bitch magazines, which are third wave feminist publications have seen widespread commercial success. (Bitch by the way was one of the first feminist womens magazine to publish articles by transwomen.) While part of the mainstream media is pushing for these artificial concepts of beauty, I would not say they are stronger then ever, in fact feminism is far from dead or weakened as some suggest.  It has had a resurgence in recent years, if anything the reality is the opposite of what you suggest. Most people see these concepts of beauty pushed by the mainstream media for the absurdity that they are.   

I am a product of feminist thought.  There is no question about that.  Being female is not about being physically beautiful, I think that is a concept often forgotten by transsexuals who buy into those concepts.  Being beautiful if it is a part of being female, is not the way the mainstream media portrays it.  Being truly beautiful does not come from a surgery, it is something that shines through in ones personality. 

Like I said, I am critical of concepts of beauty and the effect on trans people for very good reason.  There are perfectly passing TS women, especially young TS women who go under the knife and get the "works" seeking some artificial concept of feminine beauty.  This is largely because of a Doctor out there who does in fact prey on TS women, even passing and beautiful TS women's insecurities (Dr. O).  The result is extremely invasive cosmetic surgery at an extremely high price to reinforce patriarchal concepts of feminine beauty which are largely artificial.  I see it as preying on trans people, when true beauty does not come from a knife.

(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminsim.  Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic.  Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)

(I will tell you right now, there is a difference between what Brassard recommended for you and what Dr. O would have recommended.  Brassard only does what is necessary to help TS women become more passable and Dr. O ALWAYS recommends the works.  Brassard basically tweaked the natural features of your face to look naturally feminine, Dr. O would have recommended the works.  You are a good example of what most TS women SHOULD do if they need cosmetic surgery to pass.) 

I am not discounting passing, passing if you are not in Chicago, SF, New York, or Montreal, is a matter of survival.  Many non-passing TS move to these cities and other large cities because safety is important.  Plus even in these cities life is easier for TS who do pass. 

Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM

(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminism.  Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic.  Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)

The lack of knowledge in the areas of feminism could be the reason why some people fear it. At the heart of feminism it isn't angry, degrading, and controlling. It a closely held ideal that women are their own people who do not need to fall prey to the beauty standards of the mainstream to be happy. The objectification and degradation of the female gender is what we stand up against. Having elective medical procedures performed to fit into the mainstream ideal of femininity strikes a nerve with some of us. It is like telling the Pope their is no god.

Not every naturally born woman is a feminist either. They too go through the same procedures for the same shallow reasons. IMO, elective cosmetic surgeries should only be allowed to be performed on person who have been in some sort of disfiguring accident. If little Sally housewife doesn't like her nose, getting a better appreciation for who she is and some self-esteem will make that go away. the fact that women fall for this crap does not mean we as a community need to follow suit. If we, as people who used to be seen as men, can live happy productive lives as women without all of the surgical enhancements, that will send a very powerful message to everyone in society.

I have also had conversation with my female friends and their opinions of all of elective procedures transwomen go through. They see it as a fake representation of what a woman is. If it is men people are trying to attract maybe people should change their personality instead of their breast size.

Its easy for those women to say this.
But, I'd bet that if they had a bongo brow bossing
the kind no 5 foot woman has, let alone a 6 foot one with a 
quarterback frame.
they'd be first in line to fix it if they could.

Remember the "live a day in their shoes" bit Renae.

Its good that your self confident and all about how you look.
Maybe you got lucky, maybe you're comfortable with how you look
while others would find faults galore, who knows?

But I don't think you should assign motivations to others so much;
you don't know where they are or what they've been trough.

I often find that feminists and proto-feminists do a kind of pop psych analysis of women at large, trying to guess why this "universal women" acts in the way she acts, giving her motivations that she may or may not have.

Its hard to guess the motivation of someone when you live with them, imagine how much in error we can be if we try to reduce the experience of all women to a few pamphlets or books.

I think that our experiences are so diverse that this reductionism can't work. It can't work for TS and it certainly cannot work for the GG superset we are part of.

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=6909

And?

You do realize that this "campaign" is done by a company that sells beauty products by the bushells. That these "normal" woman obviously have a BMI less than the average north american woman. Yes, compared the waif on the runways they look like "regular joes ;-)", but that aint so. And, lets be serious here, all those woman have 1) small chins 2) no serious bossing 3) small jawlines 4) small to medium size nose that are nice looking 5) have full lips 6) don't have too much wrinkles or age spots for someone their age group 7) have dense packed hair, etc, etc, etc.

When they start putting women like my mother on billboards I'll start to think they are very serious about this.

I do applaud the fact that at least these women are realistic beauty goals for many women unlike the models (which by the way have more male traits than those women) which can only realisticly reached by less than 1% of the female population.

words so easily fall on deaf ears. Let us drop this for now and revisit in 10 years and see where our respective views lay at that point.

Renae, I don't quite like the insinuation.
Your point of view is no more universal than mine.
That just grates as a rhetoric device.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM





I am a product of feminist thought. 

Great, but maybe it would be better that you become a product of your own thought.

Amy, why are you putting off having SRS?

Quote from: Renae Lupini on May 26, 2007, 08:32:13 AM

Quote from: Amy T. on May 26, 2007, 02:30:56 AM

(Just to let people know third wave feminists are largely supportive of trans people, in fact ->-bleeped-<- and transfeminism are consider part of third wave feminism.  Second wave feminists are the ones who are largely transphobic.  Most trans people who do not know much about feminism have a hard time differentiating.)

It a closely held ideal that women are their own people who do not need to fall prey to the beauty standards of the mainstream to be happy. The objectification and degradation of the female gender is what we stand up against. Having elective medical procedures performed to fit into the mainstream ideal of femininity strikes a nerve with some of us. 

Then why do you wear makeup?

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 26, 2007, 02:12:56 PM
Then why do you wear makeup?

I have often questioned my motivations for this. It was born from the need to hide my facial hair. I have come to like this girly girl part of my being and really don't have any other reason beside I jsut just like to.

I don't know where you got where I was putting it off SRS.  I am not.  Plus there are money issues (saving) and the standards of care.
Generally speaking I have a timeline and I need to save money.  I have planned out my life with the idea of transitioning, why screw it up well laid out plans with rash decision making. 

SRS is about two years away in my plans (money issues, RLE, etc).  There are several reasons why.  It is not that I am putting it off, it is more I have a schedule and I am keeping to it.  For the most part I am just starting my transition.  I think I am coming from a healthy perspective from the very start.

With regards to SRS, I have to use a doctor licensed in the US or I cannot change my birth certificate. Taking the requirements of the real ID act, I have to use a US licensed doctor, so it will cost a bit more and take me longer to save. 

By the way, I am a product of my own thought, but my own thoughts on issues seem to match up pretty well with feminism, progressive activism, etc.  But with that being said an individual is drawn to certain philosophies because they do often agree with much of the philosophy.  Generally speaking those drawn to progressive philosophies such as feminism, are more perceptive to the flaws and injustices of society, and more often want to be active in speaking out and fixing these problems.  I am without question a product of third wave feminist thought, but the reason why I am a product of feminist thought is because it matched my perception of the world, I found much of my thinking matched feminism. It was not that I was not thinking on my own.  Also whether you believe it or not we are product of our culture and environments with regards to the opinions we form.  These opinions are based on our own perceptions, but also a complex dialog we have with those around us.  Many of my friends are feminists, progressives, etc.  Unlike many trans people I am not socially isolated, and I am a product of a continuing dialog with those I do know around me, and I have several friends.  I am a product of feminism, just like I am a product of environmentalism, just like I am a product of the social justice movement, just like am the product of any intellectual discourse I take part in.  Being transgirl is just a small part of who I am, I define myself in many ways.  Being a feminist is part of that definition, largely because I found third wave feminism more true than false (second wave feminism though I found to be a load of crap filled with quite a bit of transphobia and transmisogyny).  I am a product of feminism, but I am a product of feminism because I am a product of my own perspective, and the discourse I have with those around me. 

But the truth is the social circles I regular go beyond the surgery and beauty obsessed section of the trans community, which I am not a part of anyway.  My philosophy on life is a result of being social, having interactions with people.  I am a product of these interactions, and many of these interactions are from third wave feminists that are my friends.  Women (and some men) who have a complex understanding and critique of the world we live in.  Ones perspective on life is not only shaped by their own perception, but by those around them.  When one only knows their own perspective or when a community or person becomes isolated, it takes on opinions and behaviors that can be destructive, either to themselves and sometimes to other people, and sometimes these communities or people become easy prey for those who want to exploit them as well.  I think the best thing a trans person can have is not surgeries, but a friendly and honest outside perspective from somebody who is not trans and not trying to gain financially from their insecurities.  While the surgeries can fix some things, honest friendships can help us in much deeper ways. 

Beauty is an odd concept, because it is a concept that is a direct result of ones culture or subculture.  For some physical beauty is a woman with large hips and a big butt, for the eurocentric mainstream media waifish women are considered beautiful.  For some subcultural communities and feminists, beauty is not necessarily physical, but rather comes from ones personality.  I think this is a much healthier perspective in general.