Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2012, 09:21:04 PM
What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.

It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people.  Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying.  Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.

Quote from: Cain on November 15, 2012, 09:21:04 PM
What does it matter how many people regret their actions? I'm a firm believer that people should be given the freedom to make their own mistakes, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I go on T and later regret it, no one but me cares. No one else is hurt.

That is true, you are a free agent, and you are the sole "owner" of yourself.  To the extent you want to modify your body, that is your decision alone.  When you start to include doctors and surgeons, they are going to look at future liability issues, and informed consent may no longer prevail.

Genderqueer people or other trans people sometimes do take hrt. Some of them use informed consent and some get letters. Many of them take a lowered dose. Low dose does not change the fact that changes will occur, some of which you may or may not like. In fact, low dose actually does masculinize the person, there is no way out of that. Usually masculinizes at a slower rate but then I suppose nothing is guaranteed.

There are quite a few options to do informed consent. According to the TOS, the doctor should do an effect job of going thru possible side effects (and what are considered wanted effects) in great detail. I don't know if there are actually more people who detransition since there is informed consent or even that if someone who is genderqueer and stops hrt that they are actually detransitioning anyway.

"HRT letters" are not problem free either. Quite a number of people have seen therapists for months or years and do not get their letters due to some game playing, desire for monetary gain, or whatever. Others may see a therapist for large amts. of money, which they can't afford and for little reason but because the therapist is just a gatekeeper. No doubt that real transsexuals (I hate the term-- but just want to delineate who I am talking about) have been denied hrt by therapists. Therapists are not gods. The other thing is that transgender is not a psychiatric condition. Therapists are put in the position of labeling people who should not have labels.

I believe the poster here is trans enough. Whether he should take T, is up to him and his doctor.


--Jay J

OP, if you're mostly interested in growth downstairs, you could try pumping. They do make clitoral pumps that can permanently increase your size down there with regular usage.

One thing I do to enhance size and blood flow downstairs is a routine cis guys use. Depending on your size, you can definitely modify it. It's called jelqing. For me, it seems to produce longer lasting results than pumping, such as increased girth and length, and increased hardness.

I used informed consent to get hrt. I don't regret anything and I'm not suing anyone, but I guess I'm still a "regretter" or some nonsense. Oh and my dr is crappy and needs his license revoked. I hate this thread.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on November 16, 2012, 12:44:34 AM
I used informed consent to get hrt. I don't regret anything and I'm not suing anyone, but I guess I'm still a "regretter" or some nonsense. Oh and my dr is crappy and needs his license revoked. I hate this thread.

No one said everyone who used informed consent is a regretter or was suing anyone. 

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 09:27:53 PM
It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people.  Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying.  Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.

Do you have a source for this information, did you read about it somewhere - or are you just assuming it happens?

Strangely, the doctors that allow informed consent don't seem to be getting sued all over the place. You know how I am pretty sure this is true?  Because if doctors or therapists were getting constantly sued they just wouldn't offer the service anymore...  No one is making them do it, in fact is probably easier to ask for a letter.

If they lost money on it or it caused hassle, they would just stop. 

It would also get out that people were being sued and other doctors would stop providing informed consent in response.  This is not happening at all, it actually seems like the opposite is occurring.

FWIW and I don't know if this helps any but I remember articles here in Australia about people suing the Melbourne Gender Dysphoria Clinic years ago. And they were mostly people who didn't give just informed consent. These were people who were diagnosed by a shrink - misdiagnosed in their opinion and had regrets. For a start if you're interested I found http://www.ftmaustralia.org/media/?tag=melbourne-gender-dysphoria-clinic - again I don't know if it's too relavent but thought it worth a mention seems people don't think it happens.

As for the OP - take T mate..or don't!!. As you said it's your life. So long as you do your research and KNOW what you're in for - fill your boots! I would strongly suggest a chat with a therapist too. But just know too that you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't get what you want (not to say that you won't - could be the best decision of your life - it was of mine!). People are right in saying that not everyone's transition is exactly the same - for me it has been hormones and surgeries, and a transition from F to M.

Now read this carefully - I don't understand how people like to live in the grey area on the gender spectrum. The best thing is - I don't have to! That's not to say that I don't accept it's existence and other's rights to live as a feminine man or a masculine woman or any and all variations in between The only thing I don't like seeing is people who complain when they don't get the changes they want and/or changes they hate. And those who think hormones are some magical "cure" - not to say that you are one of those people. You like what T does for you great take it, you don't - then stop. Complaining and blaming others does nothing.

IMHO I agree with the possibility of people regretting their decision based on informed consent alone - they haven't had a chat with a shrink nor been assessed to make sure there are no other underlying issues. I think it is needed to have a talk with a shrink - and not just telling them what's necessary to get hormones the fastest way possible - let's face it is what we really want once we decide to take them! But actually having a discussion about why, when and your feelings and stuff

For me at least I think it boils down to getting a little bit scared that the easier it is to get hormones, the less hoops there are to jump through, the easier it will be for the medical profession to take it away if it ends up in the hands of someone who just said the right things at the right time.

And that would have to be one of my top ten fears - someone telling me I can't have my T.

Jay

That's an interesting article. However, as pointed out, those are both examples of people who were actually seen by a psychiatrist and diagnosed - not people giving informed consent without a GID letter.

Now, the obvious response to what I just said is "Informed consent will increase the number of people transitioning and getting hormones/surgery, which will in turn increase the overall number of lawsuits." Will it really? I have no idea, I bet it increases a tiny bit but not all that much. How many people are out there saying to themselves "Man, I really want to transition but I just don't want to deal with that therapy crap! Guess I'll stay in this silly old female body!"

"Well, spacerace, what about all these gender queer people who are just playing and co-opting my medical condition? Won't they run out and get hormones only to regret it two months later when they move on to their next gimmick?!"


First of all, just to clarify, I think it is reprehensible to look at it in this way. Denying someone's expressed gender identity is never acceptable.  Think about someone telling you "you're just confused"  "aren't you just a butch lesbian?"   - How would that make you feel? Awful, right?

Additionally - there's still hoops to trip them up and remind them how serious what they are doing is. You have to go to a doctor, get a physical, blood tests. You can't do it until you are 18. You have to get a shot regularly or rub gel on yourself everyday, or however you are taking it. Commitment is still involved. Also, they are consenting adults who should be able to do to their body whatever they want, and live with their decisions once they are made.  People make terrible choices for their health constantly.


"But more lawsuits mean my hormones could be taken away"

What is the tipping point for this? Do we just assume there is a magical number of lawsuits that will take away hormones and surgery for everyone in the whole country/region/world? What's to say informed consent would get anywhere remotely near making this happen?

The impact of someplace like a gender clinic getting sued out of business is just that - the gender clinic will close. Other gender clinics and doctors will learn from the mistakes of Terrible Gender Clinic. If that means they no longer offer informed consent - then it happens. People will have to go to therapy again. No one instantly loses hormone access.  You know what would really get a doctor sued? Suddenly cutting people off of hormones. Not going to happen just because of a lawsuit.

"But all of the doctors and surgeons could be sued out of business and then there would be no one left to help anyone"

This is not an instant process.  Thousands of simultaneous lawsuits are not going to all be filed at once.  Even if informed consent did cause a rapid flood of lawsuits - it would be noticed very quickly and doctors would stop offering informed consent. You know who is on top of who is suing them and why? Doctors, hospitals and their lawyers. They would stop if it was obvious a trend big enough to make an impact on the availability of trans health care was happening, way before it ever became a problem that threatened access.

Finally - informed consent for hormones only seems to be increasing. We're going to see what happens when more people get gender confirming health care without huge hassles whether people like it or not.

It's entirely up to you, OP. Some people take HRT forever, some people only take it to get some specific changes and some only use meds to block the effects of what's currently in their bodies.

Also: even with informed consent, people still have to have health checks to ensure that they have no underlying hormonal problems or other conditions that would make HRT (or at least some forms thereof) unsafe for them. At least, in my case, which has been handled so far on an informed consent basis, I had to just have a blood test, confirm that I have no severe allergies and just generally show that I am well enough.

As for those going on about "transtrenders": you are baffling. Just baffling. I can't honestly think of somebody, except for a person who had utterly lost touch with reality entirely, risking being disowned and losing everyone they know for "fashion". I am not on speaking terms with blood relatives, I can never go back to the village I used to live in and I certainly can't have contact with people I knew in high school, because I'm trans and queer. I've had to deal with people being absolutely obsessed with me and harassing me for not being "normal" to them. I've been doxed, as part of said harassment. These are not things people deal with for the sake of fashion trends.

This probably isn't what you were referring to exactly but anyway: "How many people are out there saying to themselves "Man, I really want to transition but I just don't want to deal with that therapy crap! Guess I'll stay in this silly old female body!"

This is pretty much me. Therapy is possible for me to get, it wouldn't get me hormones until I was 18 but it might get me put onto blockers and would certainly make it quicker to get hormones when I turn 18 because I would already have the diagnosis, but there is no way I'm doing it. I can't put myself through that again. Because of the way the NHS is funded there is only one place I can go to, and because of past mental health problems - and because my personality and how therapy works clashes - only one doctor there will accept to see me. He won't let anyone below him see me because apparently I'm too much responsibility for them, at too much risk and too hard to handle. There's no one above him either. So he's the only one who would see me and he's a sadist who admits he enjoys making me angry and more depressed than I was when I walked in. He wouldn't let me stop being seen either and only managed to get out of the mess because of the system screwing up when we cancelled a meeting and it never got rearranged so I slipped off his radar.

So there are some cases where therapy is too much to deal with just to get hormones. Putting myself at the mercy of someone who made me feel that awful and down isn't something I will EVER do, even if I wind up depressed or in hospital again. It terrifies me because I don't know whether this will reflect badly on me when I get to 18 and wouldn't be under his section of mental health anymore, and because there's no way to get help again if I have problems with depression again.

If there was a way to not go through him I would jump at it. Even if it still meant that I had to wait until 18 to actually get the hormones.

Therapy doesn't work for everyone anyway. Once I know the answers they expect to their questions its almost impossible for me to make an honest response because I know what each thing i say will lead them to concluding. When they asked the depression questions I had no idea whether I wanted to say 'yes' because I truly felt it, or because I was just desperate for help. It's doesn't help that most people don't fit nicely into their boxes, and I feel like saying something other than what I 'should' will make them judge me.

Regarding informed consent clinics, they do (as at least one person here pointed out) tend to assess the person medically. I had been on T for over a year when I decided to start using the informed consent clinic and save some money. I'm not saying that my clinic is typical--and there are things I don't like about it, so I might be stopping soon--but here are the hoops I had to jump through, even though I was already on T and had changed all documentation but my BC (can't change it in my birth state):

An initial screening by the program director (not an MD)
A detailed medical history
Paperwork to read and forms to fill out
Submission of a detailed written plan for the next five years of my life
A physical exam
A long talk with the doctor about the effects of T, even though I was already on it
A recommendation for an annual mammogram, even though I had had top surgery (they obviously made a mistake with me)
A recommendation that I see a GYN, since annual visits are required by this clinic
A recommendation for an AIDS test
A recommendation for other STD screening
Pre-T blood tests (I couldn't get a scrip until the results were in--and the clinic takes blood every time I go--about three times a year)

As I said, my clinic might not be typical, but this is hardly a case of giving out hormones like candy.

Anyway, the OP is only trying to find his way. If he ultimately decides that T is right for him, he can go on a low dose or gel and stop at any time. For some folks, especially those who do not identify as solidly male, trying it is the only way to find out if it is right.

I am not in any way suggesting that people who aren't sure should just bounce off to their local informed consent clinic and start shooting up. I am saying that not everyone identifies in a binary way, and those folks have as much right to transition in their own way as anyone who is pretty much binary.

As long as people know the risks and possible rewards, recognize that sex hormones are serious business, and make a careful, informed choice, who are we to deny them that? In fact, if I had tried to transition when I first came out, I would have been denied because, even though I did identify as male, I (1) had been molested as a child, (2) wasn't sure about bottom surgery, and (3) am gay. If the first two hadn't disqualified me, the third most certainly would have. Because, you know, gay trans men don't exist. Now a person is likely to be told by a therapist that he has to be either male or female and nothing in between. But some people ARE in between and need to find ways to reflect that in their bodies. T is good for some of them, not so good for others, and a complete mistake for still others. They and their medical advisers are the ones who must decide.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on November 15, 2012, 09:27:53 PM
It matters because a lot of people don't go "oh, I've had surgery and irreversibly changed my body with hormones, oh well" instead they sue doctors, clinics, therapists, a whole host of people.  Because they did informed consent but they weren't sure so they feel the "doctor should have known" or they screwed themselves over by lying to their therapist to get hormones quicker when they weren't ready and once they realize what the truth of being on hormones is they regret it and feel their therapist "should have known" they were lying.  Its sad but it happens and it slows down the process to getting care to those who need it.

Is there evidence of this happening a lot?

And no one's circled back to my point that just about every medical treatment requires informed consent. Unless it's an emergency situation where life and death is on the line, there's going to be papers for you to sign. Doctors, dentists, psychologists ... before they treat you, you have to sign that you authorize them to treat you and that you acknowledge the risks. That paperwork is a legal document that helps to protect against a lot of the lawsuits (unless it's a case of gross negligence, signing that doc waves your ability to easily sue a medical practitioner). As for the clinics, as Arch pointed out there's still a ton of steps and hoops to jump through.

Also from what I can see and having been through the process myself, a doctor prescribing HRT for ANY reason needs to be closely monitoring the patient for adverse reactions and this should include any unusual emotional/metal issues that might come up. And it's my belief that if anyone decided that HRT was not right for them their doctor would probably be the first to know about it because the prescription would be stopped. After having signed all that paperwork to even see the doctor combined with all the monitoring and tests the doctor was doing while you were on it, a lawsuit that the doctor was negligent would be difficult at best

I think there are far more other drugs out there that are more freely prescribed than Testosterone. Also, since the term, "Low-T" has made it into the drug companies marketing tactics, things like T cream and shots are being marketed more to men. So I still think there isn't a mad rush of people who *think* they may be trans trying to hit their doctors up for it and it's still mostly male born individuals that are the main recipients of prescriptions.

In short, I think this an irrational fear that you may "have your T taken away" or that it may be harder to get a trans diagnosis and treatment if all these lawsuits are indeed happening, but it's nothing more than a fear because I don't see evidence of this happening a lot.

Also, as I'm sure Arch can attest to, things have gotten easier, not harder, in the realm of trans diagnosis and treatment. When I was about 14 a psychologist diagnosed me with "gender identity disorder". The treatment they were recommending was basically anything and everything to get my mind to align with my body – basically make me become 100% female (the psychologist didn't know my particular medical history btw). It was everything I didn't want and it did a lot of damage (just the diagnosis itself, my parents didn't opt for the "treatment" thankfully). So there was no potential for me to even consider transition or taking hormones when I was younger because they psychologists considered me mentally ill – that I has just constructed this all in my mind. There were not the options there are today. They wanted you to conform to your biological gender and if anything was amiss (like being gay or not actually wanting surgery) then just forget it. I think way more opportunity has opened since then and it's finally being acknowledged that yes, trans is a real thing, there are people who are non-binary, etc. It's certainly not main stream but it's a hell of a lot better than it was in the 80s. Yes there are still the hoops to jump through but at least it's possible and I don't think it "enables" "transtrenders".

When I was finally taking seriously the possibility of medical transition--that is, when I finally ran out of the energy it took for me to NOT transition--I, too, thought about starting T and stopping it. However, I used that possibility as a way to cope with the idea that I might lose my partner if I went too far; the start-and-stop idea wasn't because I didn't ID as male.

My therapist told me about a client of his who had considered that possibility and who ultimately quit after his voice dropped enough--so, just a few months. Maybe he (she?) identified more as a butch than a man, or maybe this person, like me, wanted to keep his/her long-term relationship intact. From what I gathered, the ex-client was finally living a happy and balanced life.

Quote from: Cain on November 12, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
My questions to those on T are:

a) How long did it take for your bits to start to grow, and do you know if it's permanent even after stopping T? This is the change I'm definitely the most interested in.

b) How long did it take for facial hair to start to really come in? I wouldn't mind my body being slightly hairier, but I don't want to grow a mustache or beard. I'd be okay with having to occasionally shave though.

c) When did your voice start to drop? And one that might be harder to answer: if I were to stop taking T as my voice began to drop, would it stay in the crack-y, partially-dropped phase forever? Could I possibly train it to stay in my current range, similarly to MtF voice training? Based on the men in my family it shouldn't drop too far.

Thanks in advance!

Did we forget what this thread was about? I think so.

@Alex000000. People always assume--- go to therapy, it's good for you. Never thinking that therapy itself CAN potentially be damaging (just like any other treatment). I would add that there are unknown damages to "bad therapy". Btw, at the center that I go to I essentially had informed consent to have counseling. I don't think it included all the possible damages of bad therapy. I am not saying therapy is alway (or even usually) bad. But saying there are reasons, sometimes for people not wanting to have it.


@Arch-- I agree. The form for informed consent is such that the person would need some other reason to sue. We have a litigious culture, no doubt. And where there's a will there's a way. But I don't think it is so easy to sue over informed consent. The idea that somehow there will be so many lawsuits over informed consent that someone won't get T, wouldn't they just tighten it up first, if that were the case? I don't think there is any proof that it is the case.

@Cain-- probably. Threads develop a life of their own after about 5-7 posts. Don't even know if the OP is still reading.

--Jay J

Quote from: aleon515 on November 17, 2012, 02:07:43 AM
@Cain

Who

Quote from: Christopher_Marius on November 17, 2012, 02:48:47 AM
Who

Me. OP. Haha, I'm still reading. I just don't know what to say at this point.

Quote from: Cain on November 17, 2012, 11:21:45 AM
Me. OP. Haha, I'm still reading. I just don't know what to say at this point.

I thought he talked to Christopher