There was a thread in the News section where someone proposed that we, as transgender, shouldn't really be part of a grouping with LGB, simply because they are dealing with a sexual issue, we an identity issue.

If I've misrepresented anyone, I apologies. That was how I took it and was the position I was happy to agree with.

But I've been thinking. The argument doesn't really hold firm. I think I may have been very wrong.

To look more closely, the argument is that since their problems are so different from ours that make them very distinctive.

But Surely their problems are equally different from each other?

The problems for Lesbians, for example, may, on the face of it, be seen as similar to the problems of gays. But the reality is the problems they face in terms of negative reactions from society toward them for who and what they are are very different.

I doubt many gay men have been made to feel, expressions of intimacy between themselves and their partners was a magnet for voyuers for example. And I doubt many lesbians have been described in relations to faeces.

Each of the groups within the LGBT are facing different if difficult problems. But what unites us is that those problems are based upon ignorance and meanness. We can unite under that.

Any views?

Quote from: spacial on November 22, 2012, 09:13:52 AM
Any views?

I think there's a lot of commonality between us all. We each are dealing with a highly visible issue that we did not ask for and cannot get rid of and we live with it in the face of disapproval by a large chunk of society.

And most transgender people who transition experience same-sex attraction at some point in the process. For example a FtM who likes women will experience same-sex attraction pre-transition while a MtF who likes women will experience same-sex attraction post transition unless her sexual preferences change during the process.

There are quite a few of us who are both gay/lesbian/bisexual and transgender, myself included.

The shared problem, in my experience, is societal acceptance. I think it's down to how 'mainstream' society thinks about us. Rightly or wrongly, in the minds of many people, gender and sexuality are linked. We can scream until we're blue in the face that they are two separate things, but that's a difficult concept for people who have never had to question their own identity.

In the meantime, a lot of straight, cis-gendered people will tend to think of transgendered people as being 'different' in the same way as they think of gay people as being 'different'. There is strength in numbers, so there's a lot of sense in sticking together and helping each other.

One thing pro this is that if a gay guy (or gal) gets beat up, it is generally NOT for gay sex. The people who do the beating up don't really know about it. What they are beat up for is gender expression.

Also where I live the GBLT community has been really good and together. They organized the TDOR, for instance. But I realize this is not happening everywhere.

I also think it might lead to some of the confusions that I get for instance, people asking me re: my sexual orientation.

--Jay J

Funny thing is back in the day, the Ts were almost excluded from the gay rights movement. The very same gay rights movement that started at Stonewall in NYC when a T threw the first punch.

THe other funny thing is, we are still mostly excluded and often looked down upon with "T" standing for token 

Quote from: JoanneB on November 22, 2012, 09:39:48 PM
Funny thing is back in the day, the Ts were almost excluded from the gay rights movement. The very same gay rights movement that started at Stonewall in NYC when a T threw the first punch.

THe other funny thing is, we are still mostly excluded and often looked down upon with "T" standing for token 

I get the impression that's the real problem though. There are some LGB groups here in the UK which don't include Transgender. When I asked them why, was told 'They have their own organisations'.

I also get the impression that some individuals, within these three communities, simply don't understand. There's a thread in the ARGHHH section, where a member complains, rightly, that her girlfriend claimed that Transgender is curable, not like a gay/bi which is natural thing.

Now, I will say, I understand how some people, especially some gay and lesbian people feel. I say this because I have to confess, I find it very difficult to imagine settling for a purely gay relationship. To me, It has alwasy been about living within an ostensibly ordinary relationship. I am female. I just happen to have ugly bits which distort my appearance.

My acceptance of people in gay relationships is one of tolerance.

That some LGorB people find it difficult to accept us is perhaps the same lack of understanding and bigotry that I have toward them. But it's my bigotry. My failure to fully understand. And since it's mine, can I expect others not to be similary affected?

In that respect I'm begining to feel I should be rather grateful that others are somewhat more intelegent and considerate than I.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Quote from: spacial on November 23, 2012, 06:23:28 AM
I get the impression that's the real problem though. There are some LGB groups here in the UK which don't include Transgender. When I asked them why, was told 'They have their own organisations'.

This is a major source of exasperation for me. Even organisations like PFLAG don't do anything for the families of trans people, at least in my part of the UK. And a local LGB group has been trying to encourage lesbians to have cervical smears (which is great) but they weren't at all interested when I suggested they do the same for pre-op transguys.

Also, all of the local trans-specific organisations in my region are geared towards MtFs so I'd have to travel quite far afield to meet other FtMs. Some of the local trans support groups are even hostile towards FtMs. So instead, I'm stuck at home with no support other than you wonderful people online.

I see how they all struggle for societal acceptance, but the LGB seems to get a lot of the lime light while the T is left out in the cold.  A lot of things that have happened in recent years have been for the LGB and not the T such as repealing DADT; you still can't be openly trans and on hormones in the U.S. military.  The LGB is becoming more recognized and accepted  (see: "The New Normal" television series) while there's not much on the T side of things, at least the T side that isn't about being a drag queen/king.  Yes, the show's a comedy but that's far better than it being treated like a fetish.

The LGB community also has a tendency to leave out the T.  The one I'm a member of has 2 trans members and yet almost nothing is done about us or for us.  Everything seems to focus on marriage equality and not making it easier for trans members to be accepted and for trans people to transition easier, etc.  It's highly annoying.

I think the trans community might get some of its issues exposed that LGBs don't have to worry about with a separate identity. For example, there are no inherent medical expenses with being LGB (other than if reproduction is desired); trans people have to often spend tens of thousands of dollars to medically transition. If trans-specific issues were more visible more insurance plans might start covering trans-related procedures. LGBs also do not have to worry about legal name/gender changes or paper trails that might out them down the road like trans people do (other than if you want to take your partner's last name if you can't get married, but even then the main issue would be initiating the name change itself since your past records wouldn't out you like a TG/TS name change would).

Although LGBT communities may tend to leave out the 'T' I think that what binds us together is really simple. We are all deviant from the cis and/or straight norm. Many people who identify as gay or bi tend to push some gender boundaries, and of course, trans* can fall in any part of the sexual/romantic desire spectrum. What we share is a certain otherness. Although the LGB community may be ahead when it comes to social issues, in my mind, that means we're not too far behind.

I guess I feel different about it because of where I live (and have lived). Things aren't perfect in Canada, but the T seems a lot better integrated into LGBT organizations. The last LGBT centre I volunteered at: 2 of the 4 permanent staff were trans, including the director. That said there is an ongoing war with Xtra!, the gay newspaper in Canada, over their crappy treatment of trans* folks. But the difference is that a lot of LGB people are on side and speaking out. It isn't so much a T versus LGB thing. More like a progressive queers versus old rich gay white cis men thing. One of the best known trans* people in Canada is Ivan E. Coyote, who is an icon in the lesbian community as well...

I dunno. I've heard some bad things happening. But my experiences have all been super positive. Like I can walk into a feminist sex store and find a whole section of pro-trans literature and posters for trans health and ya... I think partly it's because the LGBT community as a whole has won a lot more of the things here. So it is easier when you don't feel so under threat all the time to treat everyone a bit better. Like same-sex marriage stopped being a thing to talk about 7 years ago now. Trans rights bills are fighting their way through legislatures all across Canada (and winning). SRS is getting covered under public healthcare... Even the conservatives seem to have stopped fighting us so hard. It's a good time to be queer and/or trans* in Canada, I guess.

So to me it wouldn't make any sense to separate, because it's working. We are winning here. And well, I'm gay. And I like feeling safe and wanted in queer spaces, even though I'm stealth. I like that the integration means that people know about us and know we exist and are, on the whole, supportive and use inclusive language and I feel like I fit... And I dunno, so many queer folk are gender variant and so many trans* folk are queer... how would you even separate us? It's all the same people.

I'm still unconvinced that Toronto Pride's alphabet soup acronym (LGBTTIQQ2SA) isn't a quietly ironic joke, but it's sort of a sign of the times here I guess? We seem to be headed towards more inclusiveness, not less.

A lot really comes to the overall attitudes of people in the group.  Obviously it will stick up for the majority group within its interest group, but are they generally supportive of others whose needs diverge a bit from the "run-of-the-mill" or highly-visible members (and do they listen)?  A GLBT group might ignore the T, a Trans group might accept TS or CD but not Androgyne, and any group might disregard how gender, race, religion, culture, or economic class may intersect with any TG subgroup.  These types of problems can infect about any group, so maybe what is just as important (if not more important) than the group's purpose is the group's culture.  How does it respond to difference?

For me, I've had success attending a UU church (it was sort of easy for me to adopt a more mixed style of dress, because I wasn't going to stay unless I could be accepted there in accordance to its stated philosophy), but not all UU churches are the same, and people can have different experiences depending on their needs and expectations (as also depending on which individuals they talk to).  I've also had some success with family and friends depending on the person, even when they do not identify with groups with a history of acceptance.

Groups that are more progressive tend to have better success rates, but the only way you can be sure about whether a group is able to respect your needs is to check it out.  If it doesn't respond well to you, try another one.  Keep at it.

I think a big issue is the different rate of incidence of being gay (about 10% of the population) versus being T (numbers are being debated, maybe 1 in 200 is "strongly" T, which does not mean that this is also outwardly expressed). So we are the minority within a minority. Hitching our wagon to this larger minority of gays has helped, as we both face exclusion and other forms of discrimination or just simply misunderstanding; but I think for our support network to get better, we would do well to have T-focused organizations. For example, the recent establishment of the transgender network Switzerland (TGNS) really helped me with my transition. Places such as susan's also help. Hugs, Beatrice