Quote from: Doc on May 16, 2007, 04:56:07 PM

Quote from: Tay on May 15, 2007, 06:11:29 PM
It takes forever.  And people that accept a "girl" who dresses as a "boy" but doesn't want to BE a boy are few and far between.

Really? I find I have a fairly easy time finding people who recognize that I do not have the character attributes of woman-ness, but they don't see the man-ness. "You are not a woman, merely female," seems to be a statement it's not too hard to get friends to arrive at, and they'll even do it all by themselves. But the same person will also deny, almost hotly, that I am masculine. Of course, if I was physically male I would not mind at all being described as an unmasculine sort of man, as I am one. So I really ought not get wound up about that.

I'm sorry you're not recognized.

I tend to get "You're small.  You have a high pitched voice.  You're a girl.  I'm going to hold doors for you, buy you your lunch any time we go out with a group, etc."

Quote from: Doc on May 16, 2007, 04:56:07 PM

QuoteI came out to my friend recently.  Two days later he told me that if I were a movie stereotype I'd be "the bitchy, stuck up girl who likes to play pretend that she has more balls than the men."

What a misogynistic statement. Do you think he meant to be nasty? Or was he just tense and thus inarticulate and coming off the rude git?

He was being Joey, a chronic misogynist.

Quote from: Doc on May 16, 2007, 04:56:07 PM

Quote from: Tay on May 16, 2007, 07:03:42 AM
Breast reduction isn't as important to me as a hysterectomy.  I have a decent binder I wear at home and on some weekends.  My uterus, however, cannot be stopped from bleeding (Canada doesn't allow menstrual suppression using birth control).  With my uterus intact, I run the risk of one day becoming pregnant, something that I would not be able to handle.

That's kinda silly, Canada -- as I understand it, the 'period' a woman on birth-control pills gets isn't a 'real' period, it's just 'withdrawl bleeding' from taking placebo-pills instead of hormonal birth-control pills on those days. All you've got to do is get on birth-control pills, say you lost a pack of pills and merrily go along taking an active pill every day. Women do it all the time, and this being the case it would clearly be wiser to do it under medical supervision. I guess there's some hot debate about its health risks or possible benefits. And there are certainly pills (or that injectable birth-control) that supposedly stop periods entirely for most females. Are they not available in Canada?

It is indeed a withdrawal period, not an actual period, as you believe.

I have liver problems due to a drug addiction and mono combining to destroy my liver when I was 16.  I don't even know for sure that I can go on the pill regularly, let alone use it in a manner not intended without supervision.  For some reason, there is a movement of Canadian doctors (many of whom are women) who believe that a female's hormones being constantly at the level maintained by birth control will destroy bone density and have major effects on breast density.  They claim that menstrual suppression cannot be done ethically until such a time as long-term testing has been done.  It could be another 10 years before Seasonale (4 periods a year) and Anya (1 per year) are legal in Canada, if they ever are. (Can you tell I've researched these options to death?)  I'm HOPEFULLY moving to the US in a year and a bit, but that's a long way off.  Approximately 13-15 cycles away.  That's a lot of weeks spent in a suicidal depression.

Quote from: Doc on May 16, 2007, 04:56:07 PMI remain puzzled about why it should be that getting spayed is so remarkably beneficial for the long-term health of female dogs, but is 'indicated' for human females only for life-threatening conditions.

Apparently it induces menopause (duh) and that is negative for a female's bone density and breast density.

Quote from: Wendy on May 16, 2007, 05:57:56 PM
Tay,

I have never been around cross gendered people.  I know I can not share my feelings with "standard" gender folks.   I told my wife and she shoots barbs into me weekly.  I expect less acceptance from people that I know. 

Can I have the uterus without the cramps? 

I am not keen on being "found-out".  I prefer to just "blend-in".  Since this seems impractical at several levels I no longer fit-in.  I feel very alone.

W

Actually, my menstrual cramps are remarkably minimal.  Almost non-existent.  Which is why my shock and revulsion at my period always seemed off when i was younger.  But if you can find someone to give you my uterus... Go for it.  I wish I could help you more.

I've never felt "male".  I "acted" like one because that was how I was brought up but my gender roles were always disconnected with my core female identity.

Quote from: Tay on May 16, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
I tend to get "You're small.  You have a high pitched voice.  You're a girl.  I'm going to hold doors for you, buy you your lunch any time we go out with a group, etc."

Hmm. You may find it easy and satisfying to beat them to the door or the check. Given that your companions are not going to turn it into an ugly competition on you.

Ever read Quentin Crisp? I found Manners from Heaven to be quite helpful as a guide to being weird gender-wise without scaring or angering people. He also describes how he accomplished his particular social gender role and you might just want to emulate him, but in a different direction.

QuoteI'm HOPEFULLY moving to the US in a year and a bit, but that's a long way off.  Approximately 13-15 cycles away.  That's a lot of weeks spent in a suicidal depression.

Can you tell if you're depressed over having a period, or if you have a depression that appears when your hormonal levels are where they are when you've got your period? Once I had to use progesterone cream for a couple of specific days in my cycle, to stop crippling cramps. I only had to do it for a couple of months, appearantly you can kinda reset yourself this way. Anyway, it not only stopped the cramps but it also made my psychological reaction to periods lessen. I'm indifferent to them now.

Quote from: Tay on May 16, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
But if you can find someone to give you my uterus... Go for it.  I wish I could help you more.

Thanks.  I do not want to be too greedy.   

Quote from: Doc on May 16, 2007, 06:59:14 PM

Quote from: Tay on May 16, 2007, 06:03:10 PM
I tend to get "You're small.  You have a high pitched voice.  You're a girl.  I'm going to hold doors for you, buy you your lunch any time we go out with a group, etc."

Hmm. You may find it easy and satisfying to beat them to the door or the check. Given that your companions are not going to turn it into an ugly competition on you.

Ever read Quentin Crisp? I found Manners from Heaven to be quite helpful as a guide to being weird gender-wise without scaring or angering people. He also describes how he accomplished his particular social gender role and you might just want to emulate him, but in a different direction.

I'll be looking up that book.  I haven't read Quentin Crisp, but I'll be looking it up.

Quote

QuoteI'm HOPEFULLY moving to the US in a year and a bit, but that's a long way off.  Approximately 13-15 cycles away.  That's a lot of weeks spent in a suicidal depression.

Can you tell if you're depressed over having a period, or if you have a depression that appears when your hormonal levels are where they are when you've got your period? Once I had to use progesterone cream for a couple of specific days in my cycle, to stop crippling cramps. I only had to do it for a couple of months, appearantly you can kinda reset yourself this way. Anyway, it not only stopped the cramps but it also made my psychological reaction to periods lessen. I'm indifferent to them now.

I'm pretty sure it's the period.  I don't get horrifically depressed in the day or two leading up to it.  I can feel my body changing and sense things going "off" and I feel dread, but not depression.  It's only when I see the blood, then know that IT is happening that things get really bad.  I start talking about and actually debating, taking a blade to my abdomen to remove it.  I desire death because I feel like everyone around me knows and is talking about what a girl I am (yeah, paranoia, I know, but I'm really irrational during my period).  I feel like it will never end.  I HATE going to the washroom and will intentionally dehydrate myself with the strange belief (Again, I know it's irrational) that if I do not drink, my blood will thicken and the bleeding will end.  And I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg, but you'd have to speak to Sophie, my fiancée, to get a better idea of what I'm like during my period.

"Is an adrogyne yet another variant of the gender continuum or rather a compromise from living many years in a gender different than that of your mind?"

That's an excellent question, and I think the answer may be different for different people.  It's a question I've definitely been asking myself as I've begun to explore my own discomfort and my not-fitting-anywhere with regard to gender. 

I'm feeling a strong pull, as I allow myself more freedom to experiment, and to be, toward a much more male way of appearing.  In fact, I just went through my entire wardrobe--underwear included--and bagged up for the thrift store everything remotely identifiable as unambiguously female, because I suddenly can't imagine wearing them again, ever.  I've stopped wearing dangly earrings, have gone to only wearing an earring in one ear, and I'm longing to get an unequivocally male haircut and will very likely do so in the next few days.  The appearance and movements of my (mercifully fairly small) breasts under my clothes has started to irritate me hugely, although I live in a really hellishly hot place (in summer) and can't imagine binding, but I'm obsessing over what to do about it that would be tolerable. 

I've been dressing very differently at work, and I'm aware that people are wondering what's up, and yet, strangely, it doesn't even bother me.  Although my birth name is already conveniently unisex, I had a moment the other day when I knew--knew, without a doubt--that if I were to ever get to the point of taking a new name, exactly what it would be.  It just floated into my mind, and I felt a huge sense of recognition, like "Yeah, that's who I'd be."  Maybe it's who I am, have always been.  And through all of this, oddly (I find it odd, or maybe just interesting) I have this weird confidence and sureness of myself that has been missing--well, forever. 

The more of these small freedoms I allow myself, I find the better I am starting to feel, as if some great weight or restriction that I've been living under has started to lift off.  I'm starting to look in the mirror and not hate what I see.  And I'm still reeling with the profundity and intensity of all these feelings, how even these small changes fill me with something unaccountably like joy, and wondering how much of my energy has been going into keeping my real self hidden all these years.

So, back to the question, I've started to wonder whether, for me, my many years of androgynous dressing and hairstyles and affectations have really been part of a massive unconscious effort to avoid confronting my real issue. 

I've started to wonder whether, for me, androgyny has been like walking along the top of a fence, being careful not to fall off onto either side, all the while casting longing glances down to where the boys are.  The trouble with walking along a fence is that you can never really relax.

But I think it's a complicated question, and not all one or the other, but possibly both, depending on the person.  And I keep telling myself it's too soon for me to be sure about any of this, even for myself.   

Quote from: Alice on May 14, 2007, 07:51:11 PM
Yeap - I do not fit in here to well.

I want to avoid transistion but no-one has told be how to do it.

I just saw this is in Androgyne talk. I guess I have to put my 'Guy in a skirt' face on. Here I am hoping to heck I am not female because of all of the implication. Thinking of me as a Androgyne might be easier.

Aliance

Hi Alice,

   What do you mean by 'implication'?  Just asking. Also, I wrote this before I went through all of the other responses, so, if I'm asking you to repeat yourself, just ignore me.  Wow!  I could have gone back and read all those posts already instead of writing this now.


Back to the thread:

   If a woman takes testosterone, I believe that she stops menstruating. This might not be optimal for attaining a neutral gender appearance, however.  The other side effects we all know about about such as the voice getting lower and possible facial hair.  I don't know, but maybe someone else does, if there is a proven controlled period of testosterone treatment that might achieve what Tay is asking about but with less likelihood of causing all of the effects that T usually causes.

Just a thought,

Rebecca

Nope. If a female on T goes off it, the low voice and some of the morphological changes will stay, but the periods will come back. Given that the reproductive organs are intact. There was a transman who stopped taking T so he could get pregnant and have a baby.

Must have been an unusual experience for the midwife. Did he have a boy?

Quote from: Tay on May 16, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
I'm pretty sure it's the period.  I don't get horrifically depressed in the day or two leading up to it.  I can feel my body changing and sense things going "off" and I feel dread, but not depression.  It's only when I see the blood, then know that IT is happening that things get really bad.  I start talking about and actually debating, taking a blade to my abdomen to remove it.  I desire death because I feel like everyone around me knows and is talking about what a girl I am (yeah, paranoia, I know, but I'm really irrational during my period).  I feel like it will never end.  I HATE going to the washroom and will intentionally dehydrate myself with the strange belief (Again, I know it's irrational) that if I do not drink, my blood will thicken and the bleeding will end.  And I believe this is only the tip of the iceberg, but you'd have to speak to Sophie, my fiancée, to get a better idea of what I'm like during my period.

I missed this thread --

Tay - is depo-provera legal in Canada? I was on that for several years and it stopped my period cold after a month or two... its an injection every 12 weeks... I loved being on it, I'm cisgendered but I friggin HATE my period.. I mean loathe.. 

there are side effects of weakened bones, and weight gain...  but thats after prolonged use.. If you're planning on moving in a year or so I'd say give it a shot?



edit-

Depo is on Canada's Planned Parenthood website, so I assume it's probably legal?

http://www.cfsh.ca/ppfc/content.asp?articleid=457

A sore subject indeed, with many years of history...

It's been the proverbial 'story of my life', but for multiple reasons.

I've just about resigned myself to the reality that I will never 'fit in' anywhere, with any group of human beings.

The closest and most enduring which I have experienced, of being affiliated with and accepted by a certain group of individuals, has occurred only of comparatively late....damn.....

I didn't expect this....

And that affiliation and connection would be with others who are like me who are also TS.

"Is it good or bad, to be alone?", she said in her copiously flowing tears...

Quote from: Tay on May 15, 2007, 05:23:27 PM

And I want to fit into some group.  Somewhere. 

You already do...it's called the human race 

Alison: I appreciate the idea of depo provera, but I don't want to go on it for a simple reason--a few years back, Native American women living in Canada were all but forced onto depo in order to prevent conception.  If they went in looking for the pill, they were prescribed depo.  Young Native girls going in for checkups were pushed to go onto depo.  Many, many of those young women had serious side effects and I do not know if that was the drug in general or their ethnicity, but I am half Metis, which means I'm a large part Native American, so I do not consider depo to be an option for me.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 27, 2007, 09:43:27 AM

Quote from: Tay on May 15, 2007, 05:23:27 PM

And I want to fit into some group.  Somewhere. 

You already do...it's called the human race 

It doesn't seem to accept me, as a general rule.

Quote from: Tay on May 27, 2007, 10:40:23 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 27, 2007, 09:43:27 AM

Quote from: Tay on May 15, 2007, 05:23:27 PM
And I want to fit into some group.  Somewhere. 

You already do...it's called the human race 

It doesn't seem to accept me, as a general rule.

It will when we're done with it. 

Quote from: RebeccaFog on May 26, 2007, 06:52:50 PM

Quote from: Alice on May 14, 2007, 07:51:11 PM
Yeap - I do not fit in here to well.

I want to avoid transistion but no-one has told be how to do it.

I just saw this is in Androgyne talk. I guess I have to put my 'Guy in a skirt' face on. Here I am hoping to heck I am not female because of all of the implication. Thinking of me as a Androgyne might be easier.

Aliance

Hi Alice,

   What do you mean by 'implication'?  Just asking. Also, I wrote this before I went through all of the other responses, so, if I'm asking you to repeat yourself, just ignore me.  Wow!  I could have gone back and read all those posts already instead of writing this now.

.
.

Rebecca

Implications means I would probably transistion soon or later if I truely identified as Female. I am scared to do this and want to avoid transistion if I can.

Alice

Quote from: Alice on May 27, 2007, 10:57:25 PM
Implications means I would probably transistion soon or later if I truely identified as Female. I am scared to do this and want to avoid transistion if I can.

The next questions are 'what do you mean by transition' and 'what do you mean by female'.    Despite what some people say, neither of these is binary: it is common to lump a set of physical, psychological and social features under an umbrella term of 'female' and a set of actions under 'transition', but it is also possible to divide either into its sub-parts. Once you start doing that, it is vitally important for you to discover just which aspects of being female you identify with, and which aspects of transition you want to avoid.

It seems that, for some people, being androgyne is a social role -- a way to cope with various conflicts with physical appearance, gender identity and social expectations. From what you have written, it is possible that you fit in that category. For some, being androgyne is a matter of more fundamental gender identity, and Tay seems to be closer to that camp. Both are fine and may result in a similar outward appearance, but it's important to keep in mind that the reasons behind that appearance are different.

The main thing, though, is to look into yourself deep enough to figure out just what you have to do in order to be comfortable with yourself. The point in transition is not to change the outward gender but instead to be as good a you as possible, given the constraints of how far your physical body and social environment can be stretched.

  Nfr

Alice, if u can avoide transition i would. I do ientify as female and do want to avoid transition but it depends if t GID will let us.


NFR
Your post makes a lot of sence, we transition to fit socially, yes. An androgenon would, to express a fem side but a TS has to do it for mental health reasons. I beleive we all have very different reasons for changing our selves or not and that alone determins how far we transition

Quote from: Alice on May 27, 2007, 10:57:25 PM
Implications means I would probably transistion soon or later if I truely identified as Female. I am scared to do this and want to avoid transistion if I can.

Alice

That would be super cool. For me, it's an impossibility and the history attests to it.

Are you seeing a gender therapist, honey? What degree of TS are you dealing with?

Seemingly, that is the question. It may well be the case where your TS is on the low end of the intensity scale and it may not be necessary for you to make major adjustments to your life, in order to accommodate it.

Quote from: rhonda13000 on May 28, 2007, 06:46:08 AM

Quote from: Alice on May 27, 2007, 10:57:25 PM
Implications means I would probably transistion soon or later if I truely identified as Female. I am scared to do this and want to avoid transistion if I can.

Alice

That would be super cool. For me, it's an impossibility and the history attests to it.

Are you seeing a gender therapist, honey? What degree of TS are you dealing with?

Seemingly, that is the question. It may well be the case where your TS is on the low end of the intensity scale and it may not be necessary for you to make major adjustments to your life, in order to accommodate it.

Thats what I am hoping. I do have a bit of GID - hopefully I will just need to cross dress for the rest of my life.

Alice

Alice,

At times my level of GID has been fairly intense. Understanding myself as androgyne, or something other than male brought things to a much more manageable level. But I do still have "bad" days, and sometimes find it very painful to not be able to simply live openly as I am. I can deal with being perceived as "guy in a dress", although that isn't at all how I see myself, and in a transphobic society it isn't safe to be seen as such.

zythyra