I'm having a bit of a dilemma. Currently I'm in Egypt. Even more currently I'm laying in my bed while tear gas slowly creeps in through my windows. I went out to Tahrir with a few of my flatmates today and we unintentionally got ourselves into a precarious situation very close to being potentially beaten and possibly arrested by the police.

When I got back home some very frightening thoughts passed my mind as I pondered what could happen if I did in fact get arrested. The rest of my flatmates nervously joked about the situation, but for me I cannot fathom the implications. The consequence of being found out as trans in a Middle Eastern country is terrifying. Yet, my long term goals are set in the region. To work, to live, to study. After going back to the states to finish my degree, I will likely be interning in Saudi for at least 6 months.

To get to my question, has anybody else had similar doubts about their future careers and found it more comforting to be true to themselves instead of let fear change their goals? Maybe some of you can't relate to my specific situation (as in region), but I'm sure many comparable situations exist. I just don't know if I'm being naive in thinking everything will turn out just fine if I'm confident enough, or if I should have reservations.

[To be clear, I'm not some tourist or uneducated American hanging out in Egypt. I have and will be studying the language long term and am plenty familiar with the country's history and cultural norms. For the last 6 months I have been living in Egypt, stealth since my 3 months on T, with no issues. ]

Thanks in advance for your responses.

I admire your determination and more so now.

For me, there was a time when I thought my own feeling trumped relaities, until eventually I accepted that survival is what matters.

It wouldn't really have bothered me to be killed to be honest. But after a few beatings for being a poof, it just became old.

That's my perspective. In short, to survive, I'd dress as a bear and quack.

But I hope you do what you feel to be right.

everything will turn out just fine if I'm confident enough,
If that were true all life would be pretty swell, because basically most people are confident enough.  However lot's of stuff creates the world we live in beyond confidence, and so it's very possible to be in the wrong place at the right time confidence aside.  And as confident as you are, there are people hostile to your views/values/morals/ethics/principals equally confident.  So there is that too. 

or if I should have reservations
What's the risk?  Is it getting better or worse?  What's the worst case, the worst that could happen to you?  Could you end up in jail in a Mideast country?

If you're studying the language and understand the politics, religion, and culture of the region, than you don't need one of us to tell you how dangerous your situation is.  I'm not saying you can't make a go of it, but if the wrong person finds out that your trans is could go very badly for you.  From my time in the middle east (still here right now) I'd say it's a toss up.  Many won't care, but the radical ones will see you as a woman trying to fool men - and could react violently.

Personally, I can't wait to get out of this region - and I have no desire to come back.  Lot's of great people here, but the few bad ones sour the entire middle east region.

I think Sage Fox answers the practicalities.

But you have to define the question, sorry if I sound like a scientist but the question matters.


What are you trying to achieve?

Why is it important?

What is the best most efficient way of achieving the answer?

What is the risk/success balance?


If/when you end up raped and beaten how will you handle it?

I'm not being negative BTW. I use the same questions for people going to remote settlements in Australia and in Antarctica

Cindy

I don't think you have to be in the Mid East to get beaten raped or murdered for being trans.  It happens every day even in major western cities.  Just please be very careful and stay out of situations where you can get arrested.

Quote from: tekla on November 24, 2012, 06:37:38 AM
everything will turn out just fine if I'm confident enough,
If that were true all life would be pretty swell, because basically most people are confident enough.  However lot's of stuff creates the world we live in beyond confidence, and so it's very possible to be in the wrong place at the right time confidence aside.  And as confident as you are, there are people hostile to your views/values/morals/ethics/principals equally confident.  So there is that too. 

or if I should have reservations
What's the risk?  Is it getting better or worse?  What's the worst case, the worst that could happen to you?  Could you end up in jail in a Mideast country?

Well sure, I know that confidence isn't a sure bet, but I've found that confidence, maybe just as much as T, has contributed to me passing well and getting through difficult situations during my transition. By the time I return, I will have had top surgery. The only visible part of me that won't pass is my genitals, of course. I could probably maneuver through most situations where this might become obvious, except of course, I have to go to the hospital and they do some kind of check up. I'm pretty sure blood tests would reveal my gender as well, but I'm not completely sure of that.

The point is- I'm 99.9% sure I could stay out of jail and a hospital, but that .01% could always lead to much trouble. I suppose most likely it would just result in me losing my job and/or being physically discriminated against. To me, these are things I could move past, and carry on.

In the end, I probably won't end up settling down in a Middle Eastern country, but I intend on spending the next ten years traveling and working in a few of them. I've been spending the last few years working for these opportunities and I can't imagine holding myself back because I'm now transitioning. Another trial for me is my desire to not be stealth (in the states), but of course forcing myself to be stealth while abroad. It will cause me to tread a very fine line in how I network, and I may in fact have to force myself to be stealth professionally no matter where I reside because of it.

Thanks for reading all.

Just want to say good luck over there. You couldn't get me over there if there was a pot o' gold with my name on it and an army escort to take me...nope.

Why? Well, I frequent a lot of true crime sites. I know they freely hang and stone gay folks. Hate to see what they would do to one of us.

Thanks for the extra information Jamison.

It's too easy to get the wrong idea about the ME, I feel. It is no more filled with fanatics than the US is filled with gun totin' bible bashers.

If you're determined to go, really good wishes and tell us how things are.

Quote from: spacial on November 26, 2012, 04:34:34 PM
Thanks for the extra information Jamison.

It's too easy to get the wrong idea about the ME, I feel. It is no more filled with fanatics than the US is filled with gun totin' bible bashers.

If you're determined to go, really good wishes and tell us how things are.

I agree with you assessment, but I'd say Egypt and Saudi (another country I'll probably work in) are much more influenced by religion at a basic level. It doesn't mean they're all fanatics by any means, but the acceptance of something like ->-bleeped-<- is a far cry away. I've found even the majority of gay guys I've met in Cairo are prejudice towards tradespeople.

Quote from: Jamison on November 26, 2012, 04:41:47 PM
I've found even the majority of gay guys I've met in Cairo are prejudice towards tradespeople.

I thought Cairo was a regional hub for trade and commerce.  You'd think those gay guys would be used to tradespeople by now. 

Since I'm not sure of any specifics, this might not be relevant but have you considered working in ME countries that are more tolerant?

I've spent time in Saudi, UAE, Syria and Morocco. The main thing that stood out is that they are all very different, except right now you are pretty much going to step into a quagmire anywhere as revolutionary and imperial forces close in from both sides.

From a purely religious point of view, the most intolerant religious sentiment comes where Salafi/Wahabbi ideas are predominant, Saudi/Qatar being at the forefront but the Salafi elements in Egypt and Yemen are very strong, since the Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) are predominantly Salafi.

While the Shia are not much better for the L, B and G tolerance, and in most cases far far worse than some more secular ME countries. But surprisingly, Iran is probably the most accepting of transgender as long as they have gone through with GRS.

Another way is if you do ever get discovered to try pass as intersex. Since there are rulings in Islam regarding intersex people that accepts them living as their social gender if they more closely resemble mannerisms and characteristics (while rulings vary, the Salafis are probably going to be far stricter), I'm not familiar enough with it to give you any practical medical knowledge but it's something I considered when planning trips back to ME countries in post-transition period (i.e. going on Hajj) if I'm still pre-op.

But there are many liberal minded people all over the ME, even in extremely conservative places like Saudi I met quite a few. Syria was a great place for example, where I felt traditional Islam flourished in a secular political state until the unfortunate civil war started. Morocco was nice too since they have been passing a lot of reforms and uphold the traditional Maliki school for religious jurisprudence but I didn't spend long there. UAE is probably the most tolerant in a secular legal way, socially there are still very conservative parts of the country however.

Quote from: aleah on November 27, 2012, 12:32:47 AM
Since I'm not sure of any specifics, this might not be relevant but have you considered working in ME countries that are more tolerant?

From a purely religious point of view, the most intolerant religious sentiment comes where Salafi/Wahabbi ideas are predominant, Saudi/Qatar being at the forefront but the Salafi elements in Egypt and Yemen are very strong, since the Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) are predominantly Salafi.

Thanks for your response. The countries I work in aren't really by choice, but where my research corresponds. Happens to be a fluke that there's less than strong liberal currents in this area, but who knows, by then I'm sure my scope will expand.

Also, just to clarify- the MB in Egypt are most certainly not "predominantly Salafi." I think you may be getting confused with the MB's historical ties to Saudi when they sought refuge when exiled under Nasser. Now, however, the MB and Salafi groups are definitely distinct with a very limited overlapping base.

Quote from: Jamison on November 27, 2012, 06:16:34 AM
Also, just to clarify- the MB in Egypt are most certainly not "predominantly Salafi." I think you may be getting confused with the MB's historical ties to Saudi when they sought refuge when exiled under Nasser. Now, however, the MB and Salafi groups are definitely distinct with a very limited overlapping base.

I'm sorry, I've heard very mixed opinions on the matter. It's hard to separate the religious from the political (since I know there is a "Salafi" political opposition), however my view is just my opinion, the MB try to stay out of polemics (which is wise) and I haven't seen enough of their hand to make a fair judgement. However from a strictly religious point of view, once they finish with reforms we'll see what majority of their fiqh will be based on.

But that's neither here nor there, I doubt we will see any serious LGBT reforms either way. I hope everything goes well for you! I certainly share your concerns with living as trans in a Muslim majority country, since I've always wanted to go study the Islamic religious sciences for a few years, but I will probably have to go to UK or US now instead (before my transition and the civil war, Syria was going to be the most likely place).

This might be a little OT (but maybe not), Jamison (and others), but you seem like a really knowledgeable guy. I have heard that some Muslims are actually more tolerant of transgenders. I have heard that Iran actually funds a lot of SRS. The bad news is this is because they somewhat see this as acceptable alternative to being gay. Have you heard anything like this or is this some Western misconception.

--Jay J

Quote from: aleon515 on November 28, 2012, 10:18:29 PM
This might be a little OT (but maybe not), Jamison (and others), but you seem like a really knowledgeable guy. I have heard that some Muslims are actually more tolerant of transgenders. I have heard that Iran actually funds a lot of SRS. The bad news is this is because they somewhat see this as acceptable alternative to being gay. Have you heard anything like this or is this some Western misconception.

--Jay J

I believe you're correct about Iran. Last I heard, they prefer nearly as many SRS operations as Thailand. ANd you're right, it's not a choice either. If they're diagnosed with being transgendered, they have to undergo SRS. However, I've read that recently it's no longer posted as "mentally disturbed" not heir military records, but rather classified as a "hormonal balance." This may also mean that an actual case of hormonal balance might be necessary in order to get diagnosed, instead of just dysphoria.

In Egypt, the same kind of reasoning is in place. Egypt use to be a more liberal society than it is today. Previous sheikhs of AL-Azhar have deemed sex changes ok under Islamic law is approved by a doctor. Now, that has been reversed, and doctors can be punished for performing operations unless the patient has a chromosomal "defect" that causes their condition. If they do, and receive SRS however, they can change their gender officially through the state. However, it doesn't mean that all institutions would accept this if they found out. Like I think someone else stated, a specific type of interest condition would be my safest best if I had to explain something- but, a medical test could also quickly disprove my claims if it came down to it.

Thanks Jamison, that's very interesting. I would guess that those kinds of irregularities aren't too common in the trans population but then who the heck knows. Also a hormone problem may be a little common. Some ftms are more masculine FAABs (but certainly not in any way all). I am pretty sure this is in utero thing. It sounds like there is a specific bias to what we might term intersex conditions.

--Jay J