In some places ID cards don't have a gender marker though. I understand there being SOME record of gender but there doesn't need to be a public record of gender that employers, people who sell alchohol, etc need to see.

But what if a person wants to be recognized as a two-spirit or a 3rd gender, the fact of the matter is we are still required to put and M or an F in most countries, regardless of all the hassle you get or concerns you would have for being officially recognized, i know some people want this.

Yes, with some reservations.  I do realize that it can be a double edge sword—at least if we let it be. 

I personally loath having to choose male or female on any forms.  As some who is doing HRT and still (has to) presents as pretty much a male-ish androgyne, I deeply feel the only valid selection for me, currently anyway, is a neutral one. 

I think that those who have had SRS (which I don't ever plan to do) should classify as female, end of story.

Yes, of course I think people should be able to put whatever sex/gender represents them on their ID. I also think that people should have the option not to have their sex/gender included on their ID. I like that some places allow people to tick transgender or other now in addition to male/female, and I also like that it's been proposed here in Canada to allow people to just put an X where it mentions sex/gender on ID at the federal level.

well i know that in San Francisco you can obtain a city ID that does not show a sex marker on it at all, unlike the California ID

I would love if they did this, as long as it wasn't abused too much by either end.

To me it seems like the real issue is that most people's perceptions of gender and sex are incorrect.  Sex does not equal gender.  Sex is the status of a person's genitalia.  Gender is something that's on the inside and can't be seen unless the person wishes to express it.

I can understand the need to specify sex on medical documents, because the two sexes can require differing medical care because of anatomical differences.

Perhaps there should be a box for sex and a separate box for gender, with options included for intersex and non-binary individuals? 

Though I can understand how ANY specification of sex/gender could be used for nefarious purposes on documents by those 'in charge.'  To be technical, any personal information can be use for nefarious purposes.

And that's my 0.02 on this issue. 

Quote from: Sage on November 28, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
To me it seems like the real issue is that most people's perceptions of gender and sex are incorrect.  Sex does not equal gender.  Sex is the status of a person's genitalia.

Genitals do not equal sex and sex, when you try to break it down into little boxes, is really difficult to pinpoint. It's really not as simple as some elementary school sex-ed course. This has been an issue in sport for ages now when they try to determine the "boundaries" of female competition in particular. Now they perform a sex test on anyone who they think performs beyond what they consider within the boundaries of what the female body is capable of. So they test chromosomes, they test hormones, they test everything and its mother to try to distinguish who is and isn't female...and the more they do that, the more concessions they end up having to make after they realise that sex is really not this clear cut thing that the patriarchal medical tradition and social convention wants it to be.

Quote from: Sage on November 28, 2012, 01:44:38 PMI can understand the need to specify sex on medical documents, because the two sexes can require differing medical care because of anatomical differences.

Not according to many medical practitioners in Canada. I've been to a few clinics where they allow you to check a box other than male or female and it has never posed a problem afaik. The Ontario government allows gender marker changes on provincial ID (and therefore provincial healthcare cards) without genital reassignment surgery or HRT. That isn't proving to be a problem for trans-positive doctors who realise that they cannot make assumptions based on the state of a person's genitals, hormones or sex marker.

Yes.  Yes they should.  My personal preference is "Male", "Female" and "N/A", which is what I write on the form anyway.

QuoteI wonder if the whole census and record keeping track of how many women and men there are has to do more with taxes, reproduction, or just simple curiosity?

It's about birthrate estimates, healthcare needs estimates etc. as far as I'm aware.

Quote from: Schu on November 25, 2012, 08:07:14 PM
The funny thing, it doesn't bother me which pronouns someone uses for me. He, she - I don't care. But someone else might. There will never be a solution that works for everybody.

I'm with Schu and sometimes pencil in "None of the above" or "Other" and even "Not sure yet!"

Quote from: Shantel on November 28, 2012, 05:43:13 PM
I'm with Schu and sometimes pencil in "None of the above" or "Other" and even "Not sure yet!"

Hmmm, yes, good; but the problem is that this only works with paper forms.  Some much is electronic now days—and we have got to know this will only become more and more so with time.

You know our government ain't exactly running the table on being able to handle two genders - now you want to give them one, perhaps even more choices.  And that doesn't end badly how?  Humans rank and count crap.  It's one of our most enduring metal problems.  And now we have two - one dominant, one not.  But you now want a couple more groups to rank higher and lower then the ones we now have.  Yikes!

And yes, we have several words that have multiple meanings right off the bat, and moreover are in an area where highly distinct shades of meanings underlay them.  You know what?  The world is complex and life is so complicated.  And even if you get get to this magical place where sex&gender don't matter in a wide number of ways to just about everyone else on the planet, even if you get everyone to agree on one -and one only - highly limited and very specific definition of 'sex' or 'gender', you're still not going to be there because individuals still will see the meanings of the words used, and hence the entire definition,  differently.

So what then? What does an intersex person do? By having to choose male or female, you are still putting them in a box. I see what your saying and it is a problem currently because men do tend to be more dominant in society and are treated differently than women, but I think eventually society will need to accept and acknowledge different people exist. Keeping the 2 gender system will not help in the long run.

Washington State has been pondering this issue recently since same-sex couples can now marry, the powers at the state capitol are considering deleting the words "Husband" and "Wife" in preference for spouse #1 and spouse #2 on the marriage certificate to eliminate gender specifics entirely. No doubt this isn't for the sake of the marrying couple, but more for the sake of eliminating the confusion for authorities.

Quote from: Berserk on November 28, 2012, 03:13:57 PM
Not according to many medical practitioners in Canada. I've been to a few clinics where they allow you to check a box other than male or female and it has never posed a problem afaik. The Ontario government allows gender marker changes on provincial ID (and therefore provincial healthcare cards) without genital reassignment surgery or HRT.

I did not know that Canada did this.    I suppose one learns something new every day.

Just watch out, if our government ever becomes a theocracy, then they'll know exactly who to hunt down and throw in internment camps.

Quote from: Sage on November 29, 2012, 12:57:16 PM
I did not know that Canada did this.    I suppose one learns something new every day.

Yep, relatively recently the Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled that it was a human rights violation for the government to require trans people to alter their bodies (particularly through surgery) in any way in order to legally be able to change their sex marker on their provincial identification. It's getting pushed at the federal level as well. Clinics have been allowing the option to tick trans or other as an option for sex since before then, though, and doesn't/shouldn't affect the medical treatment received since diagnosis and treatment is a lot more complex than what's written in a file or intake sheet.