Like I said in another post, transition hasn't really rocketed me into the social utopia I dreamed of. I feel kind of damned if I do, damned if I don't. If I'm stealth, I feel like I'm hiding a big part of myself and almost like I'm presenting as someone I'm not - a cismale.*

If I'm out to a particular person or group (usually because I was outed by someone), I'm a little more comfortable feeling like I have nothing to hide. But I also realize that no matter how accepting they're being, on some level they're thinking of me less than a guy. I can tell by the pronoun slips. If they originally assumed I was a just a guy at first, once I'm outed it goes from all 'he's' to some 'she's' mixed in. Sometimes they also start acting differently.

When I'm stealth with a group of cismales, I keep wondering if they'd accept me if they knew. Sometimes I'm able to forget I'm trans for awhile. But other times I feel like I'm hiding a big secret bomb that could explode any minute. How can I know someone's really a friend if they don't know this?

It's just not in my nature to be secretive about something this big (hell about anything). I'm a very open person. I'm afraid that being stealth goes against my nature. I've also lost a lot of confidence since transition. I think a good part of it is this stealth thing. I used to be really comfortable around other guys. Now I feel like I'm hiding something.

This discomfort even extends to work, job interviews, everything. I'm tired of being paranoid someone's going to find out. It makes me less outspoken and less outgoing. People with something to hide do everything to stay out of the spotlight. But that goes against my nature as well. I was even afraid of a promotion because they dig deeper into your background.

I don't really like being stealth but I find that I quickly tire of being around people I've been outed to. They're accepting enough usually but just don't get it.

What I want is to just be myself and out and open about my past without being mentally shunted into the 'female/something other than male' box. I don't want people assuming things about me because I'm trans. I want to be more than just trans. If something has to be my defining characteristic, I'd rather it be my weight.  If I'm going to be an 'honorary guy', I might as well have just stayed a girl.

I haven't been able to find what I'm looking for socially (not sure it even exists), so remain somewhat unhappily stealth (and rapidly eradicating any dealings with people who know me as trans). Anyway, not sure I should have opened up like this, but the social factor of transition has been on my mind lately. I haven't heard anyone else mention this, so suppose it's just me. Seems most just want to be seen as a regular guy or girl. I do too, but a regular guy who just happens to be trans.

Is there a world like that?
I haven't found it yet. Maybe I haven't given it time, since I can't stand to be around people who know. If someone 'she's' me at all, I'm not going anywhere near them unless they owe me money.

* I know many think of themselves as nothing but regular guys and girls and don't feel like they're hiding anything. That's fine. I don't quite work that way unfortunately.

Why not just be stealth until you find someone you care about.  So you have a trans medical past.  That is just one for those things that people don't talk about.

OMG have I ever been where you are at.

Eventually I just couldn't take it anymore - I felt like I was deceiving everyone and just moving myself from one box I hated (cis-male) to another box that really didn't describe me either (cis-female).

In the end I just started coming out to everyone at school, work, etc.  Sure some people were weird, but by and large they were like "holy crap that is so cooooooool!  I never would have known" etc.

I'm not sure what the right answer is.  In the end I felt like I could have more fulfilling relationships if the people I trusted in my life knew.  There is always the risk though that an antagonist or someone who might actually hurt you could find out though.

You sum up pretty much how I feel about it.  And lately, its been bugging me to have a guy ask me out or someone hitting on me and I think "oh s**t, if they knew..."  and it kind of makes me feel bad.  The way I feel about it all also tends to make me avoid making friends with people.

Quote

...What I want is to just be myself and out and open about my past without being mentally shunted into the 'female/something other than male' box. I don't want people assuming things about me because I'm trans. I want to be more than just trans. If something has to be my defining characteristic, I'd rather it be my weight.    If I'm going to be an 'honorary guy', I might as well have just stayed a girl.

...

If I understand correctly, the basic problem (from your perspective) is how other people see you, and interact with you.

The conflict is that you can't control how other people will see/interact with you. They are who they are, and yes many are borderline idiots...but there's also a large number* who are good people, but haven't yet been able to wrap their minds around gender pronouns yet.

Give them time. Don't dump them just because of one "she" or "her". Politely remind them, correct them, guide them to a better understanding. If they become obstinate...well, you tried. I'd like to think that if someone likes you to begin with, a conflict over their sincere effort to address you correctly won't cost them your friendship.

Transgender is a whole new world for most people, TG included. It takes time to learn the "rules."

(I am quite open about my TS status, btw. But, I understand that some don't want to be "out". Being stealth brings its own set of problems, none of which I want)

*I trust that there are a "large number" of good people; I have no evidence to support or deny this.

Quote from: Forum Admin on November 27, 2012, 08:47:47 PM

Is there a world like that?
I haven't found it yet. Maybe I haven't given it time, since I can't stand to be around people who know. If someone 'she's' me at all, I'm not going anywhere near them unless they owe me money.

* I know many think of themselves as nothing but regular guys and girls and don't feel like they're hiding anything. That's fine. I don't quite work that way unfortunately.

Sadly we live in a world where any deviation from the binary gender code is feared and frowned upon. Like you I won't go around anyone who disrespects me and refers to me as "she". It is disrespectful and shows indifference for anything other than what their preference is. I quit going around extended family a long time ago because of that very thing. If they didn't "she" me they would call me by my birth name. At first it was "well, it IS your legal name" then after it was change they did it out of general nastiness...screw them.

I also have a problem making friends with people who don't know. It's hard to explain but I feel like I'm a liar. I know I'm not but it is hard for me to fully open up with anyone. Then again in the past I once told a cis male who was also gay. He was my best friend and I thought I could confide in him. He totally changed and betrayed me.

You're right...we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Even though I'm not transitioning to anything I can understand what you're going through. I once posted something on here about how I was "stealth" ... only my version of it. Since I never transitioned I hide the fact I'm really a dude. Not the same of course, but it does become a burden sometimes hiding a very large part of your being to everyone you meet. I spent a lot of years telling myself I was living a lie. If I "came out" to people in general (the few close friends I have that do know are not a problem at all), I would for sure be treated differently and I imagine not especially in the way I want. Because I'm one of those people who also just wants to be myself and have my cake and eat it too. While I'd like to look slightly more male, people using either my given name or my chosen name doesn't bother me. Usually my day-to-day interactions with people I know or work with don't bother me because gender doesn't really come up. I'm in a creative field where I can "get away with" looking really androgynous or more artsy or whatever and people don't really notice it that much. It's like I'm given a free pass to look how I want to. I stopped trying to act "female" awhile ago and have pretty much just been myself around people, even new ones I meet, but 98% of the people in my life don't know my "big secret". Sometimes I think it would be a lot easier to just tell people but then I think of all the burdens that would come with ... people questioning me, people not knowing how to refer to me, people thinking I'm straight up nuts. The longer I live with this "issue" the more I try to wrap my head around just what it is that I want. I still haven't figured it all and there's some major conflicts I have going on. Like I know I'm not "female", but I can't convince the world of that. But they can't change what I am either. But I have trouble because I'm not transitioning so how can I ever convince them? And then I don't have a problem with my given name, but I don't like people to refer to me as female. See what I mean? lol

From what you wrote though, it sounds like in the long run you'd be happier just telling people you're a trans man and maybe the burden of that weight lifted off your shoulders would outweigh the burdens of people slipping up on pronouns, etc.?

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 27, 2012, 11:37:11 PMnow I can be accepted for who I am and all I have to hide is a little technicality that usually isn't relevant anyway.

You don't have that nagging voice in the back of your head asking you "what if they found out...would they even want to share space with you then"?

I always feel like they don't like me. What they like is a preconceived notion of who (or what) they think I am.

FA,

It just happens that I was thinking about this today. I've learned, today, that I'm incredibly well known as the guy who is now a woman, to an extent that people who I have not ever met and have not clue who they are, introduce themselves too me and they know my first name.

It was a bit of a shock. As I have had a dream ride. But as you know, I've made no secret of my transitioning.

I thought was I being treated a less as a woman than my other female colleagues? I then thought how were other woman treating me? How are men treating me? Am I the FREAK that people can humour.

So I went through all of my relationships that I could recall over the past few months and placed them into categories. Some people I told. Others I didn't. I know my change went through the hospital system like a bushfire. I knew stealth was never an option. So where did I sit and was I respected, was I loved and cared for, or was I a freak to be smiled at and treated as normal by law and forgotten and insulted by society law.

I decided that all of my interactions with other woman had been one of two ways, shock at presentation and then immediate acceptance. Shock and slow acceptance. Any rejection, jokes, or ill feeling I couldn't detect any. Sympathy and support yes.

My interactions with men. Shock, total shock, some initial verbal responses " I'm glad you have the courage to lead your life, I will not feel any lesser of you" that one is up for a job review. " You are my friend and my colleague, good on you, if there is any help and support I can give let me know" a common reaction. Completely ignore any changes and treat me as  the female version of who I was before, easily the vast majority. I'm know  (Cindy) she is XXXX and the job goes on, the difference, I'm treated as a female and not as male in politeness and personal interaction.

The ones who come up and introduce themselves. Some are colleagues who I haven't met for a long while, they stop me in a corridor and say Hi Cindy what did you think of Mr Smith's bone marrow - these are the catching up and are saying they are a regular guy and you are OK and I accept you type.

Then there are the odd ones who stop you. I think some of these I strongly suspected to meet. They are the hidden people. I'm so high profile that if I can do it, can they do it? They are usually very nervous and I think they want me to help them, but so far too nervous to ask.

For you.

I have said this so often and I realise how difficult it is. You are you. We are all individuals and none of us are lesser or greater than another.  How do you gain acceptance? You gain acceptance by ignoring acceptance and being you.

FA you are a man who has faced problems most men don't. Men walk their own path. Many men cannot, but the real ones do. Stealth or lack of stealth doesn't even get into the equation. You are a man so take heart and live it. You are a man, men, all men have doubts. Their wonderful weakness. That is what pillow talk is for. You are a man, be proud and be you, few men care what others think of them, and why should they?

What is a man? A Prince of the Universe.

What does that mean? You answer to no one and you live your life as the man you are.

It takes a mind flick. And I really think you are on the brink of it.

Hugs My Brother

Cindy

There is no solution. Both options kind of suck. That's the way it is. Anyone who keeps a really big, life-defining piece of themselves private is going to experience that distance and disconnect. Anyone who doesn't keep it private is going to be in the awkward situation of having everyone around them knowing really intimate information about them, and having that define their identity. Being trans has the extraordinary combination of being life-defining, incredibly intimate, rare as hell, and particularly fascinating for outsiders. So it's like... the worst of all worlds. So it goes.

The best you can do is decide which option sucks less for you, and live with it. And, really, it sounds like you've already made that choice.

That's harsh I suppose. But we all live with that choice. Or we live with fantasies. I prefer to keep myself grounded, even when it hurts.

I can offer one thing though. I have some people in my life that see me as trans and see me as female. Not many. But they don't babble about how brave I am or try to congratulate me. They don't do weird body language crap to broadcast how terribly uncomfortable they are with me. They don't treat my trans-ness like the elephant in the room, or as a curiosity. They don't butcher my pronouns. I'm just Sarah to them, trans and all. Even non-binary and all, which is a crazy stretch all on its own.

A couple took a bit of time to get there, to get that I was still the person they loved after all the nonsense was stripped away. Another was so desperately happy to know that I'd still be breathing 5 years down the road that she could have accepted I was a fish without blinking. One understands me because she is just like me. And one understands me because she understands pretty much everything. Those are the people that matter for me. That's how I can go through my day-to-day life and be invisible to everyone else and be okay with that.

Those people keep me sane. I don't care who I lie to, as long as I don't have to lie to them.

So ya... there is a world like that. Might be a little on the small side. Might take work and luck to find. But it's there.

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 28, 2012, 03:34:05 AM
I can offer one thing though. I have some people in my life that see me as trans and see me as female. Not many. But they don't babble about how brave I am or try to congratulate me. They don't do weird body language crap to broadcast how terribly uncomfortable they are with me. They don't treat my trans-ness like the elephant in the room, or as a curiosity. They don't butcher my pronouns.

I can back that up from my own experience. I too know people like that. They do exist.

I should add that there is a third way between total openness and total stealth and Cindy touched on it. That third way is just to present as yourself and not volunteer any information about being trans unless explicitly asked. I have only been asked very rarely but I just admit to being trans in a very off-hand way. 'Oh yes - I was not born this way, but I fixed that and it is behind me now.' and so far that has been the end of the conversation and those people seem to accept me as I present.

Like a lot of things in life, if you think too much about it, it can drag you down.

Quote from: Cindy James on November 28, 2012, 02:41:41 AM
What is a man? A Prince of the Universe.

What does that mean? You answer to no one and you live your life as the man you are.

Wow Cindy - you make that sound pretty cool. Makes me wonder why you and I are running away from it    but I will continue to run, and I am sure you will too ....

Quote from: Forum Admin on November 27, 2012, 08:47:47 PM
If I'm stealth, I feel like I'm hiding a big part of myself and almost like I'm presenting as someone I'm not - a cismale.*

I haven't transitioned yet, but that very sentence applies to me verbatim. I am not out to anyone where I work or most of my social outlets. It's really frustrating because the all see me as a cis male, and I am not one. It hampers my ability to connect with people because they are not seeing me as I am.

When/if I do transition I will not have the option of stealth, since everyone at work and in my social circles knows me and will know what I used to look like. I've done a lot of soul searching and have decided that, while I'd love to be stealth, it's not in the cards if I transition in place.

Buy I know a bunch of Trans women who do not pass (and probably won't). They are some of the happiest trans people I know. I'm sure they'd love to be stealth too, but I see no sign of it. They appear thrilled to be able to show the world the women they are and are, by and large, accepted as women by nearly everyone.

In my opinion they do more for the standing of transgender people in the world. By showing themselves to everyone as intelligent, strong, accomplished women who also happen to be trans, they show everyone they meet that that the negative stereotypes of us are wrong.

I've concluded that being stealth is not required for a successful transition, or at least I keep telling myself that.

Wow, so many thoughtful replies! Thanks everybody. Feels great to know I'm not alone. Might post more in response later.

Wow Cindy - you make that sound pretty cool. Makes me wonder why you and I are running away from it    but I will continue to run, and I am sure you will too ....
[/quote]



I'm not running. I'm the Empress of the Universe.

Men need to be proud and to be able to stand tall and to see that they are loved and that they are important.

I think it is hard for them.

Quote from: Cindy James on November 28, 2012, 11:02:14 AM
I'm not running. I'm the Empress of the Universe.

Quote from: Cindy James on November 28, 2012, 11:02:14 AMMen need to be proud and to be able to stand tall and to see that they are loved and that they are important.

I think it is hard for them.

Yes it is - as you and I both know.....

Right now I'm dealing with the stealth issue, and I think I've come to terms with it for the time being. The social transition for me as so far been the hardest. I, as well, have become more reclusive- a characteristic that would have never defined me- all because of my fear of being outed. Currently I am abroad and live with flatmates that have no idea. I took this opportunity to start fresh, socialize with the guys, and feel fully accepted. What I didn't expect was feeling like I couldn't form true friendships unless I came out with it.

What I ended up doing, was being close friends with a few of them for about 3 months- then came out to 2 of the girls. At this point, they already had time to get their first impression and had already in their mind grouped me with the rest of the guys. I spend time with them everyday, so I felt 3 months was plenty of time to consolidate my male image. When I came out, they were surprised and completely accepting- as I knew they would be. But like you worry about, I was worried that they would think of me as less than male. But in fact, a majority of the time they forget that I'm even trans. They still make comments to me, even when we're alone, like- "well that's easy for you to say you can pee wherever" (or whatever gendered comment you'd like to insert).

With the guys though, I feel much different. Guys have a tendency to size each other up and this is not something I am comfortable with doing at the moment. I know when I go home, I will have male friends who know and this will just have to be something I accept. I'm only 7 months on T pre-op, and at this point I do not feel "masculine" enough to be critiqued by cismales and do not want to risk being seen as "less than male." In these cases, I intend on waiting much longer before outing myself.

I suspect this will attitude will change considerable after top surgery and when I'm on T for say another 7 months. But for now, this is how I've managed to come to terms. I work out and have many characteristics that are seen as "dominant/masculine," at least in a stereotypical way. As these characteristics come to be even more visible, I can gain the confidence to not be so concerned about being seen as "less than."

Quote from: Simon on November 27, 2012, 10:22:14 PM
Sadly we live in a world where any deviation from the binary gender code is feared and frowned upon. Like you I won't go around anyone who disrespects me and refers to me as "she". It is disrespectful and shows indifference for anything other than what their preference is. I quit going around extended family a long time ago because of that very thing. If they didn't "she" me they would call me by my birth name. At first it was "well, it IS your legal name" then after it was change they did it out of general nastiness...screw them.

I also have a problem making friends with people who don't know. It's hard to explain but I feel like I'm a liar. I know I'm not but it is hard for me to fully open up with anyone. Then again in the past I once told a cis male who was also gay. He was my best friend and I thought I could confide in him. He totally changed and betrayed me.

You're right...we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

You're absolutely correct. But, and perhaps its my activist fight for justice reflex, I believe this is all the more reason to be out-and-proud. The only way we can only hope normalize gender concepts on a spectrum rather than a binary, is to shoe-horn a new experience/identity. And that means exposing people to a new truth.

When I tried the stealth thing, I felt guilty. It was as if I was complying, justifying and even reaffirming the gender binary. In my silence was the implicit choice to conform to, rather than, expand the status quo. Now, I don't walk around screaming ->-bleeped-<-!, but I certainly don't back away from the issue when it arises. Its less stress on my mind, and may even help someone down the road. IMHO

edit - for clarity and grammerz

Quote from: Celery Stalk on November 29, 2012, 06:21:23 PM
You're absolutely correct. But, and perhaps its my activist fight for justice reflex, I believe this is all the more reason to be out-and-proud. The only way we can only hope normalize gender concepts on a spectrum rather than a binary, is to shoe-horn a new experience/identity is to break heteronarrative mold. And that means exposing people to a new truth.

When I tried the stealth thing, I felt guilty. It was as if I was complying, justifying and even reaffirming the gender binary. In my silence was the implicit choice to conform to, rather than, expand the status quo. Now, I don't walk around screaming ->-bleeped-<-!, but I certainly don't back away from the issue when it arises. Its less stress on my mind, and may even help someone down the road. IMHO

edit - for clarity and grammerz

I understand your side of things but that brings me to a question. Have you ever been discriminated against?

To make a long story short, for about two years I was a grill cook at a 24 hour diner. The grill was viewable by customers and I worked third shift. Every weekend I had the same 8 or 9 people come in after the bars closed. I was good enough to touch their food. Good enough to make their food and they loved my cooking. Always came back every week for it. Out of the group there was two guys who hated me. For no other reason than because I existed. There were threats of violence weekly and rude comments. Sufficed to say I am extremely adept at ignoring people. However, little did they know I was always armed.

I feel like if I wanted people to know of my trans status I'd stay as I am indefinitely. I would want to change my outward appearance for myself but it wouldn't be such a driving force in my life.

I don't like 99% of cis gender people. There I said it. I am prejudiced against them, their narrow views disgust me, and I don't trust them. My gf asked me not too long ago if we ever broke up if I'd date a transwoman. I told her that is probably the only women I would date. In a sense I will eventually be "out" but amongst other trans people. In a few years I will be relocating to a larger city and I want to work with trans people. Not sure if I'll volunteer as a counselor or what I'll do. I think that is a more worthwhile effort than simply being the "token ->-bleeped-<-" with the cis people. As much as you think they accept you they will never see you like you see yourself. A very select few might and they are usually partners or parents. Everyone else...nahh.

Quote from: Simon on November 29, 2012, 06:42:11 PM
I understand your side of things but that brings me to a question. Have you ever been discriminated against?

Yes I have. Its a balancing act, risk vs reward. I understand that some regions are far more discriminating than others, to the point that discretion is a necessity. I don't begrudge someone's choice to go stealth, as I completely understand and respect it. We have to be reasonable, but I'm in a place where I can afford to be forward. Being that is the case, I feel it best to represent the trans community by being a humble, amicable and open transwoman.

I feel the same way and found the best way to live my life is to be out to my close friends, and only be close with people who really get it. I tried being completely stealth when I was living abroad and it's just not the path for me. I ended up feeling very lonely and like I couldn't connect with anyone. So in my personal life, I'm out, and all the people I choose to surround myself with know. At work I'm stealth because it's easier and I'm not really trying to become great friends with my co-workers. And in most social situations it doesn't get brought up so it doesn't matter. I'm not open in general, so most people I meet don't know much about me, so why would they know I'm trans? But yeah, in the rare occasion that I make a new friend and we start becoming close, I feel weird until I come out to them. And if someone started treating me differently I'd be very upset and would probably end the friendship.