So I was very perplexed as to how this woman was being treated by the police in las vegas nevada, sure this person is going to jail and being accused but there were many things done here that were wrong in my opinion. The biggest one being that they claimed the person as 100% female based on the fact she had an operation, had she not then they would have put her with the males but in Protective Custody. They then would have listed her as 100% male as they did previously on the computer!

Yeah this is a problem. In the many states if you don't have bottom surgery you can never get your official gender marker changed.  It sucks and needs to be changed.

I'm going to play devils advocate.

Let's say you're cis gender female, or even post op MtF. You're 5'5" 135 lbs or so, petite, so forth, and in jail. How would you feel if a cross dresser that was picked up for a sex crime against women gets thrown in jail with you, just because he claimed to be trans? Or on the other side, what about pre op FtMs? Do you think they'd fare well in a males prison when they still have a vagina? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Personally I think it's fair to go by genitals... or MAYBE by a very thorough psychiatric evaluation, determine where to place them. But at the same time... I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA - or any male prison for that matter. I'd probably be dead, raped, or sold on the black market the minute the guards stop looking...

Thank God I'm not a criminal....

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 07, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
I'm going to play devils advocate.

Let's say you're cis gender female, or even post op MtF. You're 5'5" 135 lbs or so, petite, so forth, and in jail. How would you feel if a cross dresser that was picked up for a sex crime against women gets thrown in jail with you, just because he claimed to be trans? Or on the other side, what about pre op FtMs? Do you think they'd fare well in a males prison when they still have a vagina? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Personally I think it's fair to go by genitals... or MAYBE by a very thorough psychiatric evaluation, determine where to place them. But at the same time... I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA - or any male prison for that matter. I'd probably be dead, raped, or sold on the black market the minute the guards stop looking...

Thank God I'm not a criminal....

Really anyone who is gender variant of any sort should be isolated from the population in jail for thier own protection. Now that isn't practical for long term things like prison but if we have time we can vet people better than in jail.

I am no criminal either but I have been harassed before by law enforcement for crimes I didn't commit, and I am all too aware that people go to jail for things they didn't do all the time, and occasionally go to prison for Crimea they didn't commit.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 07, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
I'm going to play devils advocate.

Let's say you're cis gender female, or even post op MtF. You're 5'5" 135 lbs or so, petite, so forth, and in jail. How would you feel if a cross dresser that was picked up for a sex crime against women gets thrown in jail with you, just because he claimed to be trans? Or on the other side, what about pre op FtMs? Do you think they'd fare well in a males prison when they still have a vagina? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Personally I think it's fair to go by genitals... or MAYBE by a very thorough psychiatric evaluation, determine where to place them. But at the same time... I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA - or any male prison for that matter. I'd probably be dead, raped, or sold on the black market the minute the guards stop looking...

Thank God I'm not a criminal....

Oh boy..

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 07, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
I'm going to play devils advocate.

Let's say you're cis gender female, or even post op MtF. You're 5'5" 135 lbs or so, petite, so forth, and in jail. How would you feel if a cross dresser that was picked up for a sex crime against women gets thrown in jail with you, just because he claimed to be trans? Or on the other side, what about pre op FtMs? Do you think they'd fare well in a males prison when they still have a vagina? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Personally I think it's fair to go by genitals... or MAYBE by a very thorough psychiatric evaluation, determine where to place them. But at the same time... I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA - or any male prison for that matter. I'd probably be dead, raped, or sold on the black market the minute the guards stop looking...

Thank God I'm not a criminal....

I see your point but I still feel bottom surgery should not be the determining factor for gender markers.  Its unfair to people who want bottom surgery but have no way to pay for it or trans people that chose not to for whatever reason.  I hate that I am stuck with a giant letter M on my driver's license or gender male tied to my social security number and surgery is the only way to fix it.  I am not sure if I will ever be able to afford it.

A personal claim from the person would not be enough, but letters from therapists and doctors, something concrete that shows your transitioning beyond just having a 20,000 dollar surgery as the only option.

As far a prisons go, I agree with some type of isolation, at least one prison in every state should have an area trans people sentenced to long term incarceration.  I don't think that's to much to ask it doesn't even have to be that large as I have not heard of high number of trans criminals. Except for the poor girls caught up in prostitution but I don't think that should even be criminalized, there are better ways to address that problem than throwing them in jail.

.

Both male and female prisons have some very abusive bad ass individuals locked up in them.   As a transgender women, I pretty much feel my goose is cooked if one of them ever fixates upon me.   It probably wouldn't make any difference rather I had male or female private parts between my legs.   Either way I would wind up somebodies bitch.   Being a bitch in a female prison and having male gender parts might just make me a bigger target for abuse then if I would have had surgery.    Being in isolation in and of itself can be very abusive.   Being a women I would rather be with other women than I would being a victim of male aggression on a second by second basis.   

My natural desire to survive would have to carry me through whatever prison situation I happened into.     My best options is to be on my best behavior as a women and keep myself save including being very careful as to who I chose to be my friends.

The idea that I as a women, I am a threat to other women just because I have male private parts is utterly ridiculous  to me because when I am having sex with another women my male private parts do not act like male private parts,  they are soft and squishy most of the time and I am more sexually responsive if they are safely tucked away or imprisoned in my female underclothing.   While there is nothing wrong with being a she male, I am not one.    Even when my other female partner helps me out my male parts are basically useless.    In a female prison I may be ridiculed for having male body parts,  but as a transgender woman, I am a woman who is attracted to women, but when I have sex it is as a woman and not as a man.   I would need a dildo like any other woman would to even approximate giving a male sexual experience to another women.

You will find all kinds of women in a women's prison, just like you find all kinds of men in a man's prison.     I feel that a female transgender should be housed in a prison according to her gender identification and behavior and not her body type.   Transgender men pose no threat either and again are going to be abused in either a men's prison or a women's prison.   As a transgender women,  I cannot speak for them.   But I can guess that transgender males would rather be accepted as one of the guys, rather than treated line any other women.    To be one of the guys they would have to be as tough as any of the other guys.

In reality there are no good outcomes for transgenders in prison except to be survivors and very internally tough.

Like someone said earlier. glad I am not a criminal

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 07, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
I'm going to play devils advocate.

Let's say you're cis gender female, or even post op MtF. You're 5'5" 135 lbs or so, petite, so forth, and in jail. How would you feel if a cross dresser that was picked up for a sex crime against women gets thrown in jail with you, just because he claimed to be trans? Or on the other side, what about pre op FtMs? Do you think they'd fare well in a males prison when they still have a vagina? The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Personally I think it's fair to go by genitals... or MAYBE by a very thorough psychiatric evaluation, determine where to place them. But at the same time... I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA - or any male prison for that matter. I'd probably be dead, raped, or sold on the black market the minute the guards stop looking...

Thank God I'm not a criminal....

Unfortunate, but reasonable points.  The only solution would be to expand protective custody units, imho.

Quote from: Snowpaw on December 07, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
Like someone said earlier. glad I am not a criminal

Neither are 7% of the prison population that have been wrongly convicted. Its a scary issue that is always in the back of my mind.

I'm going to play devils advocate...I couldn't imagine what they'd do to me in the male side of Orleans Parish Prison, which is one of the most dangerous places to be jailed in the USA
Well I'll play devil's advocate and basically agree with michelle and tell you that I'm sure you would not fare much better on the female side.  There was a long running individual in here with a prison fixation and they were constantly bringing up the issue and frequently singled out California and I kept trying to tell them that going to a female prison in Cali ain't no walk in the park.  Between the outright psychos (most of the people in custody have mental health and substance abuse issues), and the people who choose to live a criminal lifestyle, particularly the urban gang members, there are lots of extremely violent females in US prisons.  There is a tendency in criminal courts to try to avoid putting women in prison, so those that make it there are there for some pretty bad stuff.

In a female prison I may be ridiculed for having male body parts
My guess is that you would fare no better in a female prison than in a male one.  It's highly likely that you'd be getting the broomstick rape on a constant basis and most likely the rusty razor SRS too.  After all, lots (perhaps a majority) of the women in jail have a history of psychical, mental and sexual abuse by males and now you show up and present an opportunity to revenge all that.  And the other women in there who don't have a real hate toward men are not going to like you any better and are far more likely to go along with the group than to try to protect you.


To be one of the guys they would have to be as tough as any of the other guys.
Most likely that would be impossible, as some of those people have been working on being tough 24/7 since the day they were born.  They were born to, and raised in violence.  They like violence, they practice it, they are highly skilled at it and they have had 20+ years to do little but work to develop it.  Many are cold-blooded killers.  Many are psychopathic/sociopath.  You're not going to be able to catch up with them.

Did anyone notice the smirks and smiles on the male cops faces? They seemed to be getting a kick out of the whole thing and were not really taking her seriously, until after the patdown and confirmation of genitals. She was there for a DUI and she was even real polite with them at the end. It ended well but it did not start out well.

There seems to be 3 issues, one of where to house her (male or female), second is an issue of who is going to search her because the law requires that someone should be searched by a member of their own gender.  Third is the strip-search, and everyone - EVERYONE - going into lock-up gets striped searched.

Quote from: Aeris on December 07, 2012, 10:37:22 PM
This person is a criminal lol.
Who cares what they do with him/her/it.

Yet here are all of y'all worried about them being treated fairly...

are you freaking serious? Just because someone commits a crime doesnt mean they should be thrown to the dogs and no one should care about them, people make mistakes and depending on the severity of the crime they are punished accordingly, I have a few friends that have been in jail but they turned out to be productive and helpful citizens.

Also this girl had not been to court yet, so she was simply under arrest and that was what I was taking issue with, how a transperson is seen in certain areas of law enforcement. You are aware, are you not that in the 60's and 70's transfolk were beaten or harassed or arrested for impersonating the other gender?

Quote from: Aeris on December 07, 2012, 10:37:22 PM
This person is a criminal lol.
Who cares what they do with him/her/it.

Yet here are all of y'all worried about them being treated fairly...

You're damn right. Human rights are for everybody, even the child molester or whatever disgusting act they've done in life. I care what they do to "him/her/it" - that could be any of us in that position; wrongly accused, for lesser charges, through a stupid mistake... whatever.

Think about it like this. If we had caught Hitler, would it have done the world much better to gas him every day of his life for 7 years before we killed him? Would the world have been much better if we'd subjected him to rape every day of his life? I don't think so. Because at the end of the day, feeding him to wolves (so to speak)  does nothing but makes everyone feel better... it doesn't make him go back and reverse what he's done. He'd be dead anyways... or suffered for the rest of his life for absolutely no good other than some sick pleasure of the human race.

What I'm trying to say is, subjecting someone to torture is the same amount of evil, perversion... whatever you wanna call it regardless if the person is guilty or innocent.

Quote from: Aeris on December 07, 2012, 10:37:22 PM
This person is a criminal lol.
Who cares what they do with him/her/it.

Yet here are all of y'all worried about them being treated fairly...

And you assume everyone who is locked up is a "criminal" and actually did something wrong. I guess then if a trans person is (wrongly) accused of a crime, throw then in jail with the guys and sweep up what's left in the morning?

About 15 years ago when I was living more as a gender queer, I went through a -DUI road block- driving my brothers car which he had let the insurance expire (I had no idea). They ran the plates and it came up -expired insurance- This is a jail-able offense now. The prison I spent the night in had enough sense to put me in a cell by myself until someone could come get me out.

I don't think trans people should die or spend the night being raped over things like this.

Quote from: Stephe on December 07, 2012, 11:10:44 PM
I don't think trans people should die or spend the night being raped over things like this.

There's a trans girl here locally that was in prison with men that was raped *repeatedly* over the course of a month before prison officials finally moved her to a different wing, where she was raped again. To top it off, when they tested her upon intake she was HIV negative. After later being tested, she is now positive.

Now, combine that with Stephes story. Do you think Stephe deserves to become infected with HIV? Hell, do you think ANYBODY deserves to be infected with HIV just because they were arrested BEFORE having a trial?

Our jails / prisons need a SERIOUS reform in the USA. Not just for trans people but as a whole. And we as civilized human beings need to learn what compassion is.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 07, 2012, 11:19:58 PM
There's a trans girl here locally that was in prison with men that was raped *repeatedly* over the course of a month before prison officials finally moved her to a different wing, where she was raped again. To top it off, when they tested her upon intake she was HIV negative. After later being tested, she is now positive.

Now, combine that with Stephes story. Do you think Stephe deserves to become infected with HIV? Hell, do you think ANYBODY deserves to be infected with HIV just because they were arrested BEFORE having a trial?

Our jails / prisons need a SERIOUS reform in the USA. Not just for trans people but as a whole. And we as civilized human beings need to learn what compassion is.

I agree 100% the state of our prison system in the USA is absolutely appalling it does nothing to help the imprisoned people return to a productive members of society after they have served their sentence. It just makes them worse and ruins their life.  The United States leads the world in the rate of incarcerating its own citizens. We imprison more of our own people than any other country on earth, including China which has four times our population, or in human history.

We don't send people to prison to reform them, we do it to punish them.  And, BTW, there is no such thing as "just" under arrest.  If you are being processed - at someplace like Las Vegas which I'm sure has a huge jail/arrest deal going down - everyone is treated the same.  And I don't know about where you live, but in Nevada, like Cali, DUI is considered a very serious offense.

Quote from: tekla on December 08, 2012, 12:14:52 PM
We don't send people to prison to reform them, we do it to punish them.  And, BTW, there is no such thing as "just" under arrest.  If you are being processed - at someplace like Las Vegas which I'm sure has a huge jail/arrest deal going down - everyone is treated the same.  And I don't know about where you live, but in Nevada, like Cali, DUI is considered a very serious offense.

Well, a person should be able to be reformed after being in jail or prison, but like sadie has said, it often does make them worse, because in jail and especially prison there is violence and drugs and racial tension and many other things going on that harden a person and its like being in the military only much less pleasant and much more hard core. Everyone is not treated the same when they are under arrest BTW, it all depends on what your under arrest for, and where you got arrested and even still who you are (ie blacks get treated different than whites in a lot of places)