Quote from: aleon515 on December 07, 2012, 11:39:33 PM
I don't take it as patronization, only that they think of me as female, which is sort of bad enough.

--Jay

Maybe it's different in the South but here we hold the door open for anyone behind us. It's just a common courtesy and nothing to do with gender.

I have noticed since I pass most of the time younger guys don't hold the door open as much but I'm thinking that is more of a generation gap than a gender thing....kids are just getting less polite.

In SF people hold the door open for other people, some might make some elaborate display out of it, but that's just part of the local color where we seem to have more than our fair share of overly dramatic people.  But I've seen lots of women hold doors for delivery guys, or anyone with arms full - it's just common courtesy.

Quote from: Simon on December 07, 2012, 11:49:22 PM
It's just a common courtesy and nothing to do with gender.

I must admit I've noticed that consistently, too. Guys holding doors for girls, girls holding doors for guys, guys for other guys, girls for other girls.

Like... it's a door, someone else wants to come through it. Who you are doesn't seem to be as important as the overriding need to get through the door and the desire by the person in front to hold it for you.

Okay, as interesting as the door talk had been  , I think that neither gender is really all too privileged. Women have some things good or bad and so do men. Now whether a woman's idea of bad outweighs a man's bad is still in question.

What's funny is that some of the oppression women say occurs to them at the hands of men is actually brought on themselves. For example, someone here said that women have some sort of expectation to dress a certain way. I volunteer at my school's science department (an office), and the assistant principal told me, "I'd rather have a competent teacher than a pretty face." I don't think that most employers care about attire as long as it's appropriate. If anything, women comment each other on their outfits more than men. 

Quote from: girl you look fierce on December 08, 2012, 11:24:53 AM
if they had to hire 2 women of equal competence and one was prettier they would probably hire the prettier woman.

At the very top of the list for the most common forms of discrimination are attractiveness and height, for both men and women. They both far outweigh discrimination on any other factor statistically. I would immediately concede that's it's probably a little worse for women, but it's still a huge factor for everyone. How you dress is a big part of that but a lot of that at an interview is mostly about looking like you care. It reflects your attitude. That women have a lot more decisions to make in that dept is probably something that is perpetuated more by women than by men, and I think that's something feminists need to accept if they want things to change. There are lots of women out there who prefer the status quo and are contributing significantly to perpetuating it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241333/Checking-competition-Women-spend-time-ogling-females-male-partners-do.html

I know there are men out there who will just like seeing more skin and respond inappropriately to that, but as far as judging outfits... they're mostly pretty clueless. The cliche of a man who doesn't notice when his gf has new shoes or has changed her hair and how she gets offended comes to mind. Who notices it? Her lady friends or her gay male friends, the ones who aren't eyeing her sexually.

Quote from: dalebert on December 08, 2012, 11:39:13 AM
At the very top of the list for the most common forms of discrimination are attractiveness and height, for both men and women. They both far outweigh discrimination on any other factor statistically. I would immediately concede that's it's probably a little worse for women, but it's still a huge factor for everyone. How you dress is a big part of that but a lot of that at an interview is mostly about looking like you care. It reflects your attitude. That women have a lot more decisions to make in that dept is probably something that is perpetuated more by women than by men, and I think that's something feminists need to accept if they want things to change. There are lots of women out there who prefer the status quo and are contributing significantly to perpetuating it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241333/Checking-competition-Women-spend-time-ogling-females-male-partners-do.html

I know there are men out there who will just like seeing more skin and respond inappropriately to that, but as far as judging outfits... they're mostly pretty clueless. The cliche of a man who doesn't notice when his gf has new shoes or has changed her hair and how she gets offended comes to mind. Who notices it? Her lady friends or her gay male friends, the ones who aren't eyeing her sexually.

I love all the directions this thread has gone in. Makes for interesting conversation.

dalebert brings up some good points here (and so did DianaP). I truly feel that women are the harshest critics on other women's appearance. Outside of some harassment I received in middle school from immature males making fun of me because (gotta love this) I looked like a boy rather than a girl, all the other harassment, snooty remarks, evil looks I've received on my appearance have been from women. Women can brutal in that department. "God she's so ugly! Look at her clothes! She's got no make up!" blah blah blah.

I think a large number of guys don't take any particular notice to all the "results" from all the time females spend (other than noticing that some of them spend a hell of a lot more time in the bathroom in the morning) on their appearances. Now we can debate that the reason this particular segment of the female population is so concerned about their appearance is because of tv/movies/fashion/marketing, etc. all reinforcing the fact that women should look a certain way. But at any time, women have the option to opt out of that b.s. and plenty do. But plenty more opt for wearing makeup ect because they like it and they like the way it makes them look.

And there certainly are tons of things directed towards men to look a certain way. There's even marketing that alludes to concepts like, "women will like you more if you get rid of all that yucky chest hair!" (just recently saw some "personal groomer" thing on a commercial and that was totally what was going on).

So I think in a lot of cases like that it's not privilege or patriarchy or anything like that going on ... it's more just playing into human vanity.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 08, 2012, 02:19:34 PM
I think a large number of guys don't take any particular notice to all the "results" from all the time females spend (other than noticing that some of them spend a hell of a lot more time in the bathroom in the morning) on their appearances.

They definitely don't. One of the benefits of being raised male is that I know how they think and I also get to see from the other side all of the annoying things women do, such as spending an hour on makeup only to look 0.000415% better. 

I'm just going to swoop in to say that having privilege as a male doesn't mean you don't have other problems, including problems some women don't have. Like to respond to the OP, one of the things there was that the safety thing might be negated in many aspects by being trans. But how safe are you if you're a cis Black man living in a poor urban neighborhood or or a cis Gaza fisherman living in occupied Palestine.

Obviously some women do try to use the idea of male privilage or the idea of feminism in general to act like this stuff doesn't count, but I think a lot of the time they're just trying to cover for their own privileges. Not "female privilege," but, say, being White, being a US citizen, being middle class, etc. Women like this end up being as alienating to other women as they are to men because not women have these advantages (this is also why White feminists aren't very popular with nonWhite women a lot of the time, who often actually identify primarily with their ethnic/cultural group).

The idea that trans men transition because they want male privilege is just stupid though. Sometimes cis women even criticize trans women by saying things like "Wait, why you would want to be a woman? I'd much rather be a man, being a woman is so hard!" It's like okay sweetie, the testosterone is an internet order away. But of course they don't do that because it's not who they are.

Quote from: Simon on December 07, 2012, 11:49:22 PM
Maybe it's different in the South but here we hold the door open for anyone behind us. It's just a common courtesy and nothing to do with gender.

I was surprised when I moved a little north to a university city and women actually held doors for me sometimes.  Growing up (in the south) I always held doors for both genders, men would be thankful but would be really confused and have that moment where they're like "Wait, why is he just standing there" whereas women would just smile, say thank you, and be on their on their way, not thinking much of it. It's definitely a "thing" in certain parts of the country.

so after much discussion about the privileges of each gender -or lack thereof- the question arises...

where are we left standing?  Do we benefit from having walk both sides of the fence?

is there a MTF vs FTM difference???  How about the "in-between"?

Quote from: Venus-Castina on December 09, 2012, 09:28:23 AM
I have also got this male privilege talk, mostly from other MtF's.
I am an airline pilot, and some (rather bitter) transwomen say I have misused my male privilege to accomplish this before starting transition.
Above all, I think this privilege talk is being misused far too much to portray ones discontempt instead of of used for a constructive argument.

Fully agree, I sit at a table with CTO's and CEO's and have to deliver. I have been told by various people that I am where I am because my race, gender, and/or looks.

I say: maybe but I did pay my dues going to school and applying "thought management" and developing "emotional and political intelligence.

So, yeah I use anything I can to improve my situation and I think it helps me tremendously the fact that I speak both languages and understand both cultures  -at least in the western civilization-

Quote from: Venus-Castina on December 09, 2012, 09:28:23 AM

Above all, I think this privilege talk is being misused far too much to portray ones discontempt instead of of used for a constructive argument.

That I agree with. Especially when one is dissatisfied with their life, they want to come up with reasons that don't put any of the blame on themselves.

Quote from: silly by the seashore on December 09, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
That I agree with. Especially when one is dissatisfied with their life, they want to come up with reasons that don't put any of the blame on themselves.

I think there's kind of two problems here on.

One is that "male privilege" (or "white privilege," etc) in the sense that feminists, academics, etc means something more specific than "a privilege that men have." So there are endless debates between people using the more abstract definition and people using the dictionary definition, like obviously there are specific situations where women tend to have certain privileges but a lot of the time this isn't relevant to what academic types and such are saying. Sometimes I think there's some willful ignorance from "privileged people" who want to shut down discussions, but a lot of the confusion is probably genuine and it's more people bludgeoning each other over the head with different ideological constructs rather than engaging each other. 

The second is that the more abstract concept is still very limited. It's useful for talking about certain things or explaining certain kinds of systematic advantages, but it ultimately doesn't really explain how society works because it ends up focusing in one facet in a way that isn't realistic. Academic types are starting to respond to this by talking about "intersectionality" where they combine multiple facets, but this is only slightly better. So the discussion sometimes becomes not so relevant when talking about individual people, but since this is a very individualistic culture people try to do it anyway (including when that individual is the person himself) and it stops making any sense. 

There are other problems too but I think these are the biggest things.

Something I found:

"Everything Men's Rights Activists label as "female privilege" is really patriarchy backfiring against men.

The gender-specific rule that men shouldn't hit women is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are fragile.

The belief that men can't be raped is caused by the belief that men always want sex and the belief that men must always be strong, which are the same gender norms that enable men to sexually harass women.

The belief that all men are rapists is caused by the misogynistic belief that a woman who is quick to trust a man is asking for it.

The belief that statutory rape is worse with an older man and a younger woman than with an older woman and a younger man is caused by the misogynistic belief that society must protect female virginity.

Custody favoring the mother is caused by the misogynistic belief that taking care of the kids is a woman's job.

The fact that only men can be drafted is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are too weak for combat. Also, most feminists are against the draft.

The belief that the man must pay for the date is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are helpless and need men to do everything for them, and it's often used as a way to guilt-trip her into having sex.

Feminists don't support any of those. All of those are caused by patriarchy. Men's Rights Activists can stop blaming feminists for the problems that patriarchy causes.."

Pretty much. I honestly can't believe people think "female privilege" exists. It can't. It's similar to "POC privilege". (lulz) POC are often oppressed by white people. Women are oppressed by men. Not the other way around. Western society caters to men and their needs. Don't think so? Open your eyes. There are many good examples here. This thread is basically rubbish from what I've read with a few good points sprinkled in. I've never seen so many people in denial of what's actually going on.

Here's what I know: My girlfriend is often ignored in public when we go out together. Cashiers and clerks talk to me, even if she is paying for something. They assume I know better and am the "leader" (aka man) in the relationship and call the shots. That's not the way our relationship is structured at all.

My girlfriend also went into a hardware store one time looking for a kitchen item. When she asked where it is they took her to the asile and explained how it worked and said she should know about said item because ya know, all women should be in the kitchen, (*rolls eyes*) I should also mention my girlfriend worked in a hardware store for 4 years.

These are just 2 examples.

There is a lot of misinformation here. I really think people aren't doing their homework.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on December 09, 2012, 05:24:44 PM
Pretty much. I honestly can't believe people think "female privilege" exists. It can't.

Well, then anyone can easily say that they can't believe that you don't believe it exists.

-Gender norms don't allow for sexual harassment. That's why it's illegal.

-No one believes that any rape victim, regardless of gender was "asking for it."

-It's actually caused by the false label of all men wanting sex. Men are not taken seriously when they are raped.

-No one forces a woman to take her kids. She does it out of her own will and is often favored when she does so.

-Actually, females not being allowed in combat is because we know that in many less-developed countries, female POWs would be more likely to be raped, killed, or put into involuntary servitude. I can guarantee that no woman would complain to have an out for a draft when the men are being called away.

-Actually, that belief is a bit old-fashioned. The current model is "if you asked the person out, you pay." No one thinks that money would make a woman have sex with you unless she's a gold digger or a prostitute.

The point is that there is neither a skew towards males nor females. We could all exchange personal examples all day, but there really are sexists to both men and women.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on December 09, 2012, 05:24:44 PM

1) The gender-specific rule that men shouldn't hit women is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are fragile.


2) The belief that all men are rapists is caused by the misogynistic belief that a woman who is quick to trust a man is asking for it.

3) Custody favoring the mother is caused by the misogynistic belief that taking care of the kids is a woman's job.

4) The fact that only men can be drafted is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are too weak for combat.

5) The belief that the man must pay for the date is caused by the misogynistic belief that women are helpless and need men to do everything for them, and it's often used as a way to guilt-trip her into having sex.

Beg to disagree:

1) Giving the same height and weight women are biological more fragile. Bones less dense, skin less thick, and less muscle. Sorry but this is a biological fact.

2) Rape is a violent crime not driven by sex, but by a need to dominate.

3) The female of the specie is the one who invest a great deal of energy on her children,
evolutionary her brain is wired for teaching and protecting her children, so yeah it is the mother's job. Fathering is not a as a high priority for the average Joe as mothering is for the average Jane. Again, all of this is biologically-based

4) While you can come up with the Amazons and the Russians female snipers of WWII, and etc, etc. Because issue of strength, yeah, bad idea to make the bulk of your infantry out of females. An average Marine or Special Ops dude has to carry between 70 to 90 lbs of gear for 12 to 16 h. Very few females can muster that. Do not take me wrong, the girls want to go to special forces school, yeah let them in but do not lower the bar for them, let the ones who can perform at the level of a man stay, otherwise you will be putting the team at jeopardy.

5) As the human specie evolved the female of the specie had to spend more time rearing the children and become lees capable of securing her own food. One way to solve this problem was to exchange sex for food for her and her children. This evolutionary transaction survive to this day in many ways, say the famous engagement ring, what it is this all about??? Is not the male buying the female? Now you and me can agree that his transactions are not right and that the female should stand in her own two feet in an even plain field, right? Well, maybe in a couple of hundred of years in the future.

In regards to the military thing. For a long time it wasn't just that women are physically not the same as men but also that they would be a "distraction" to men (plenty of things to have a go at with that one!), and they would be "too emotional". They couldn't be trained to kill like the men could. I disagree with that one. Some very good assassins over the ages were women. There were women warriors in ancient times as well. The Scythian women are said to be the origin story for the Amazons. So I certainly think women could be cut out for combat, but not all women.

I still say a lot of these things being brought up simply don't apply to a lot of the people in everyday life, especially not as a general rule as some proponents like to claim.

As for females being ignored while with a perceived male ... I think many customer service people (clerks, waiters/waitresses, etc.) go by who talks first, or who approaches them first, if it's a couple. For a women to walk up with a man and address someone and for them to answer the man would be rude. So if they're doing that, they may be sexiest, but above all, they're just simply rude to ignore the person who asked the question.

So much of this stuff doesn't come into play if you carry yourself a certain way. If you exude authority and confidence other people will pick up on that. Granted, a lot of FTM guys take a while to develop those traits because so many are so insecure with themselves.

I was reading the first couple pages of posts and this discussion is pretty interesting. I'd say I've been passing and living as a stealth male for the past year now and I've really noticed that both genders have privilege in their own ways. So far living as male I've noticed that I am not judged by what I say as much and people take me a little more seriously. Other than that I can't really think of anything else that's changed for the better. The way men and women interact with me is different but it's neither negative or positive, just more fitting for me. I must say though that male privilege is not for all men. I am a shorter guy and I can say that in a lot of cases there is a lot of prejudice against short men. Even with some of the advantages of male privilege there are many disadvantages such as having to live up to a masculine persona at all times, strangers won't help you, people think you might be a criminal more often than a woman, you are expected to hold yourself together at all times, certain remarks made as a man can be taken as offensive or strange but the same words by a woman are fine. I'm not saying I have any problem with these, it's just what I've noticed. Both sexes has it's advantages and disadvantages and I think that depending on who you are as a person you can see them as negative or positive.

Quote from: MikeyG500 on December 09, 2012, 11:57:28 PM
you are expected to hold yourself together at all times

I can attest to this on a personal level. I can't tell you as a cancer patient how many times I have wanted to flip out or cry when faced with the mountains of tests and surgeries that I have dealt with in the past almost 6 years. No matter what is happening as a man I suck up my feelings and just get on with it.

Having emotions be universally accepted socially is a female privilege. An emotional man isn't accepted.