This may have been asked before but I am confused and lately I have become more spiritual and interested in God and the afterlife but it is hard to get information pertaining to TG people as that wasn't specifically mentioned in the bible.

I have heard from people that the ill and injured and deformed would be returned to wholeness in Heaven, and does that apply to us as well? Because if God made our souls and loves us each as his children and knows us as no other man can know us, then he sees the souls of his transgender children as his sons and daughters in spirit, right? So transgender women and men he sees as he would see any other man or woman and knows them as their true spiritual gender.

So assuming that, we will be made whole as a reflection of our souls in the kingdom to come, healed of all the ails and perils of our mortal bodies which would make us complete. As Jesus said worry not for your food and your body (in this life) they will be provided to you in the kingdom of heaven.

Does that mean we will be made whole and complete in the kingdom to come? It is said Jesus loves those whoare struggling and suffering in this world and they will be rewarded in the kingdom of heaven so that is my interpretation of it.

Is my interpretation correct? Would God see us as we truly are on the inside, and our spiritual or heavenly likeness to be a true reflection of our soul's qualities?

Jesus healed and delivered some in this life and for various reasons didn't heal or deliver others. When he healed and delivered some it was for the glory of God. To show his power and mercy on those who would believe. Sometimes it showed their willingness to endure and hold on in faith showing patience and appointed times.

Some he didn't heal or deliver. One reason listed was lack of faith. For some it is written they suffered in this life accounting salvation and the riches in Christ greater than anything this world has to offer. After meeting Christians who have nothing in this world and endure all sorts of hardships I feel blessed and would rather be quick to sympathise than to ridicule.

The important part for a Christian is to have faith and love the Lord above everything else and serve him with all their heart while awaiting either his return or the day they put off the tabernacle. Seek his will in all things and trust his Spirit.

I know it's a vague answer but I hope it helps.

when it comes to issues of heaven and the afterlife, the Christian perspectives is actually more diverse than you will ever imagine.

For example, some Christians believe in a heaven...and even that, people have a multitude of different perspectives of a christian based heaven. Some say we will be genderless as there is no need of Gender as we have no need of sexual procreation. Some believe in a spiritual body in heaven.

Some believe in reincarnation until we reach a point of enlightenment. For example, I believe in reincarnation. Many Christian theologians even believe in reincarnation. Using the messages that John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah.

So I wouldn't lose sleep over what the afterlife will be like and what does it mean to be whole. Whatever the issue is I am sure we wont be complaining about it

When it came to healing people Jesus performed miracles to show the presence of the Kingdom of Heaven. The disabilities and issues people faced in which Jesus needed to heal those was not because of sin or something bad..Jesus even mentions this concerning the blind man.

This is where my belief of reincarnation comes into play. I often wonder in my past life when I went to the celestial heavens I told God I did not want to come back as a girl because I was a girl in a prior life and my life was complete hell. So I came back as a boy and I regretted it.

I'm sorry if this is an intrusion, but I would like to add to the discussion.

I think that your God would acknowledge and accept who you are, and would be proud of your fortitude in making the journey to realise your true self.

A God that would reject your true self would not be worth worshipping.

Well actually the bible does refer to "Eunuchs" which could be considered transgender folk today.I have read in a book called "Transgender Journeys" which refers to the passage and makes sense and also what my pastor and I agree on.

QuoteMatthew 19:11-12 But Jesus said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 14, 2012, 06:58:04 PM
Well actually the bible does refer to "Eunuchs" which could be considered transgender folk today.I have read in a book called "Transgender Journeys" which refers to the passage and makes sense and also what my pastor and I agree on.

Eunichs "could" be referred to as transgender people but that cannot be proven.

Historically, Eunichs were those who had their testicles removed so they could service a queen or other royalty without fear of the queen being pregnant in the process. These were often males who were sold into slavery after their lands were defeated.

Also, Eunichs were those who were born with a genital deformity or a person who was missing his testicles from an accident.

Eunichs were also men who had their own testicles removed for fear that their sexual desires would anger God and they would rather remove their testicles than to face the wraith of God.

There is very little evidence (really, next to no evidence) that Eunichs were transgender people.

Also, I have to disagree with your pastor concerning Matthew 19:11-12 ...and I'm a transgender pastor! I want to break it down what many commentaries and theologians talk about concerning this passage:

But Jesus said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb,

This refers to babies who were born with the defect of lacking testicles. Many people in this culture believed that a genetically deformity was a result of sins from the father and/or mother.  Jesus always preached that deformities was never from sin but from a defect and any healing was to show the glory of the Kingdom of Heavem

and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men,

These were the eunichs who were forced into slavery because their nations were defeated and had their testicles removed against their will to service people sexually without fear that the females in royalty were to become pregnant and give birth to slave children

and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it."

These were men who voluntarily had their testicles removed because they were fearful that their sexual passions would interfere with their own pious nature of worshiping their God. Others were scared that their sexual passions would anger God and in order to not be in the hands of their angry God they had their testicles removed...because the removal of testicles greatly diminished their sexual desires.  Paul even referred somewhat to sexual passions and desires to get into the way of ministry but rather than cutting your testicles out he said marriage was the better option.

While I understand your desire of wanting transgender language and scenarios in the Bible, the truth is, there is next to nothing about transgenders in the Bible. Very little is spoken of it and most of the time when someone says "that person was a transgender" it is merely conjectures.

The closest any scripture comes to transgenders is Joshua and his coat. In the original Hebrew, David's robes were describes as robes with long flowing sleeves. In Hebrew cultural references of garments only female virgins wore robes with long flowing sleeves (such as Tamar before her rape)....but even this is conjecture.

well I appreciate your analysis , but I still disagree with you on that Annah.

So what does the Bible say about what our bodies will be like?

Philippians 3

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

We are told that our bodies will be transformed into the same type of spiritual body that Jesus has.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

The second man of heaven is Jesus so our bodies will be in like manner that Jesus now has.

So what is recorded about Jesus body? The first thing we are told is that Mary sees a man.

John 20

13 They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, "Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16 Jesus said to her, "Mary."

The next is that it is that all of the wounds inflicted by the beatings,His crown of thorns,where His beard and hair were pulled out,with the exception of the wounds in His hands and side (and maybe His feet it's not recorded that He still has those or not) are gone.  (Those do remain for a purpose) They certainly would have recognized Him if the wounds were still there after all some if not all had seen Him beaten, mocked,a crown of thorns shoved on His head,and had helped take the body down,wrap it up and place it in the tomb.

His body is a body of flesh and bone not one of flesh and blood. The disciples could touch Him and He ate with them.

If our bodies are going to be like His in the same manner,then in the same manner that Jesus infirmities are gone won't ours also? If He was made whole won't we be?

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 14, 2012, 07:47:13 PM
well I appreciate your analysis , but I still disagree with you on that Annah.

You can certainly disagree with me but there is no scholarly research of any kind that remotely connects Eunuchs to transgender people. ->-bleeped-<- and Eunuchs does not tie into that passage in anyway culturally, hermeneutically, exegetical or through any theological redaction. Trust me...I spent 4 years undergraduate and 6 years post graduate work in Biblical Interpretation. Even the original Koine Greek word Eunuch (Ευνούχος)  means a servant who had his testicles removed to serve in a servant capacity. It doesn't even come close to someone having his testicles removed to be a girl. India's Hijra did that (similar to transgender orchi) but it doesn't relate to the Judeo/Greco/Christian form of a Eunuch.

I even posed the parallels of Eunuchs to Transgenders to several very LGBT friendly (one is transgender) noted theologians from Princeton Divinity, Berkley, Harvard Divinity, Emerson, Drexel, my Seminary, and Western three years ago and they all said there is not sufficient evidence to tie various scriptures to transsexuals...especially Matthew 19. Two of these theologians holds LGBT Seminars in various theological circles where over a thousand congregate to learn Queer theology

Even the LGBT and Queer Bible Commentaries does not connect Eunuchs to transgender people.

The only people I have ever seen that connected Eunuchs to transgender people were other transgender Christians and almost all of them are laity.

Well what message I get from Jesus here is that i would not be judged and sent to hell, separated from God or anything else, If I was a Eunuch.

Whether I was born as a Eunuch, or was made by other people as a Eunuch (say a doctor operated on me at birth) Or I chose to be a Eunuch.

It may not be technically the same thing, but I can see the similarities. I still take some comfort in that verse anyways. It's the only one i know of that even comes close.

So If I choose to have srs surgery that does make me a eunuch to some degree, since for me I will no longer have a male sex drive or organs and will feel more at peace and less motivated by visual sexual thoughts, and for me personally will be able to focus better on Spritual and emotional things because my body will no longer create for me any anxiety. The hormones I will have of course will help this also.

So in my mind I was born this way and i also chose to do something about it.

Its interesting though that the New Living Translation has a completely different meaning of Matthew 19:11-12 when you see it. But this translation also uses the word homosexuality in many places in scripture, in replacement of sodomy which means "rape"

My mom has said to me a few times that I cannot and should not change the body God gave me, but Eunuchs did in fact change and alter the body that God gave them in part, a very painful thing to do I am sure as an adult without pain killers or being put under.

That's were the common factor is here, the altering of the body. Taking Hormones alters my endocrine system and i would not be punished for that either.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 14, 2012, 11:07:06 PM
Well what message I get from Jesus here is that i would not be judged and sent to hell, separated from God or anything else, If I was a Eunuch.

That can actually be more self harming to your spiritual well being if you hold onto that. Let me explain.

From this statement you believe you aren't going to hell because Jesus talked about transgenders and it's ok.

In my opinion, that's severely limiting. You are holding out that God's grace will cover you into salvation because of the Eunuch passage and that Jesus was talking about you.

So, I would pose a question, does Jesus allow homosexuals into heaven? Because homosexuals do not alter their genitals.

Because based on your comment, I get the feeling that you believe homosexuality is inherently wrong but being transgender is ok because Matthew 19 redeems transsexuals.

I go further into saying God's grace and unconditional love and the fact that Jesus taught us salvation when he mentioned loving your neighbor as yourself and you will have eternal life (Luke 10:25). So it doesn't matter what your sexuality is. If you love people and treat them as yourselves then you will be fine.

QuoteWhether I was born as a Eunuch, or was made by other people as a Eunuch (say a doctor operated on me at birth) Or I chose to be a Eunuch.

It may not be technically the same thing, but I can see the similarities. I still take some comfort in that verse anyways. It's the only one i know of that even comes close.

It comes close in a sense that the testicles are removed. However, there is another inherent flaw in this exegetical translation. This could explain post op transgender or transgender who had orchi. However, if you follow this scripture based on your course of interpretation, then Matthew 19 will not apply to non op transsexuals since their testicles are not removed. Nor will it apply to transsexuals who are in the process of transition who have yet made the transition via surgery.

QuoteSo If I choose to have srs surgery that does make me a eunuch to some degree, since for me I will no longer have a male sex drive or organs and will feel more at peace and less motivated by visual sexual thoughts, and for me personally will be able to focus better on Spritual and emotional things because my body will no longer create for me any anxiety. The hormones I will have of course will help this also.

Again, the issue with this is that a Eunuch who was forced to have their testicles removed were forced to perform sexually and the ones who voluntarily had their testicles removed refrained from all sexual activities because the entire point of them to remove their testicles was so that they could cease all sexual functions and spend the rest of their lives in devotion to God.

This is a major difference from getting a sex change to become another gender ...unless once you get a sex change then you refrained from any and all sexual activity or relationships.

QuoteIts interesting though that the New Living Translation has a completely different meaning of Matthew 19:11-12 when you see it. But this translation also uses the word homosexuality in many places in scripture, in replacement of sodomy which means "rape"

The New Living Translation was done by a team of right wing evangelical theologians too. I knew one personally. The man who did Kings in the New Living Translation is Dr. William Barnes who was my Old Testament Professor at SouthEastern College of the Assemblies of God...and he now teaches at North Central University of the Assemblies of God. The Assemblies of God is one of the worse denominations when it comes to LGBT inequality. I used to be a pastor for the Assemblies of God...they are ruthless.

Also, the New Living Translation is a "paraphrased bible." Which means it does not translate the original languages into English...it simply paraphrases it...like "The Message" Bible from the 1970s.  This particular Bible is meant to be read as a devotional (by Evangelical conservatives) but never meant to be used for interpretation and exegeses.

When it comes to a scale of proper and correct translation from a scale from one to ten, the New Living Translation Bible is a 2. No Divinity student (even conservative evangelical students) use this Bible in an academic setting...it wasn't design to be used for that.

The problem with this is that a lot of Christians take the Bible literally and when they read a "Novel version" of the Bible then a lot of wrong turns will be made.

QuoteMy mom has said to me a few times that I cannot and should not change the body God gave me, but Eunuchs did in fact change and alter the body that God gave them in part, a very painful thing to do I am sure as an adult without pain killers or being put under.

I agree with you. This is your body. If you believe that you were born in the wrong body then you have every right to do so and I believe 100% God will not cast you away for doing that. But putting all of your convictions into comparison yourself as a Eunuch is severely limiting yourself and placing yourself in a spiritual box. As I said earlier, Eunuchs who volunteered to have their genitals removed did so so that they could spend every waking moment of their time to pray to God and to devote themselves fully with God. They never had a wife or a love, never had sex, never dated. Volunteer Eunuchs spent their times in solitude and the Early Desert Mothers and Fathers of the 2nd Century took the practices of the Eunuchs and incorporated them into their devotional lives...and those Desert Mothers and Fathers evolved into what we have as Convents and Monastaries today where they spend their lives in communal solitude and spending all their lives in prayer and service for God without any form sexual contact or dating or marriage. That is a Eunuch.

You are getting surgery to align your body to the gender you feel right in. That's completely different from a Eunuch.

It's like saying "I'm asexual so I'm also a nun." Yes. Nuns are suppose to be asexual but that doesn't mean asexuals are nuns.

I am in no way downplaying your transgender status. I am trying to say you are worth more and are more than that one passage that you hope applies to yourself.

Try to look beyond that and know God accepts you and everyone else regardless of a passage. You are not a Eunuch. You are more than a Eunuch in a good way. You can be the woman you are suppose to be and experience the gifts that God gave you and the experiences you will have as a woman.

Go beyond "the walls" of scripture and go further than that!

QuoteBecause based on your comment, I get the feeling that you believe homosexuality is inherently wrong but being transgender is ok because Matthew 19 redeems transsexuals.

No, all LGBTQQI people are God's extravagant, I consider myself a lesbian and I read a book called "What the bible really says about homosexuality" which is written by 2 authors, both Christian and they explain rather well the clobbering passages and explain scripture in a way that is very helpful, you should read it. Anyone who is LGBTQQI would get a lot of comfort from that book.

Taking hormones alters your body also, your still altering it from the current state. Again a loving God would not punish me for altering my endocrine system as someone told me. So I still see a pre op or non op transsexual having some similarities to a Eunuch. Yes its not the same thing , but regardless for me personally it helps to know I am born this way.

I found a few things that you might consider:

QuoteIsaiah 56.3-5

Do not let the foreigner joined to the Lord say,
"The Lord will surely separate me from his people";
and do not let the eunuch say,
"I am just a dry tree."
For thus says the Lord:
To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
I will give, in my house and within my walls,
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.

This passage is God's vision given to Isaiah of the restoration of his people. The surrounding chapters resound with social justice and the welcoming of those who were formerly despised into the presence of God. Although the term 'eunuch' is not a perfect fit for transgender people, it does, in context, refer to those who were outside of society's strictly male-female order. It is interesting to note that this passage from Isaiah couples eunuchs with foreigners as those previously despised, comparing transphobia with xenophobia and racism, a failure to accept those who are different. The 'sons and daughters' who had previously prided themselves in their inherent possession of God's kingdom are to be superseded by foreigners and eunuchs. Likewise, Jesus mentions eunuchs as a positive example of entering the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 19.12, and Philip befriended, taught and baptized an Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8.27-39.


http://christhum.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/transgender-and-the-church/

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 14, 2012, 06:58:04 PM
Well actually the bible does refer to "Eunuchs" which could be considered transgender folk today.I have read in a book called "Transgender Journeys" which refers to the passage and makes sense and also what my pastor and I agree on.

Eunuchs were/are men.. I am not a man, and I suspect neither are you. Annah has already more than adequately explained the accepted meaning of the quote from Matthew.

My aunt is a minister in one of the larger christian churches here in Australia, not long after I came out, she and I had an interesting discussion with her about trans related stuff and the Bible. She told me that, essentially, trans people are not mentioned in the bible at all. She then when on to say that providing I lived as a 'good christian' there would be no issues.

My own twist on it is that god, to me, always seemed more interested in my soul than what I did to my body. As far as I'm concerned, all I am doing is bringing my physical body in line with my soul.

Shawn,

Please be careful as Matthew 19 1-12 is within the context of marriage and divorce. The Pharisees first question was if it was OK to divorce for any reason. Jesus reminds them that God made them male and female,the two would be united in one flesh,and what God has joined together let no man put asunder. The Pharisees then asks Jesus why did Moses give the condition that a man could write a certificate of divorce and send her away. Jesus tells them it was permitted for their hard hearts. Jesus then goes on to tell them that except for sexual immorality that if one remarries they commited adultery.

Why didn't Jesus tell them what sexual immorality is? The Pharisees already knew what it was within the context of the Mosaic law. There was no need to repeat that which they already knew. They knew what the law said and the consequences that were to be meted out under the Mosaic law.

Next the disciples then comment on that exchange

10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

So why did they say that? Because in one fell swoop Jesus removes any and all other "causes" that could be made for divorce but one. It is after this that Jesus talks about eunuchs.

11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Within the context,Jesus is speaking to Jews living under the Mosaic law,it can only mean one thing and that's celibacy. One should remember that Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees and the disciples and not gentiles.

Quote from: Annah on December 14, 2012, 11:50:32 PM

Also, the New Living Translation is a "paraphrased bible." Which means it does not translate the original languages into English...it simply paraphrases it...like "The Message" Bible from the 1970s.  This particular Bible is meant to be read as a devotional (by Evangelical conservatives) but never meant to be used for interpretation and exegeses.

Annah,

I think the "Message" bible didn't start coming out in parts until 1993. I think the version you are referring to is the "Living" Bible which came out in the 1970's.  (Not that it's either here or there so to speak) My sister used that version.

According to the book written by Virginia Ramey Mollenkott and Vanessa Sheridan called "Transgender Journeys" they cite references about the Ethiopian Eunuch saved by Philip, as being a Shaman, and a two spirit person, who was some sort of gender variant. I lost my copy of the book so I can't cite the exact text, I will need to order it again from amazon. When I do I will share the chapter about this eunuch in more detail.

Quote from: SarahM777 on December 15, 2012, 07:14:12 AM
Annah,

I think the "Message" bible didn't start coming out in parts until 1993. I think the version you are referring to is the "Living" Bible which came out in the 1970's.  (Not that it's either here or there so to speak) My sister used that version.

ah you r right. sorry!

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 15, 2012, 11:18:26 AM
According to the book written by Virginia Ramey Mollenkott and Vanessa Sheridan called "Transgender Journeys" they cite references about the Ethiopian Eunuch saved by Philip, as being a Shaman, and a two spirit person, who was some sort of gender variant. I lost my copy of the book so I can't cite the exact text, I will need to order it again from amazon. When I do I will share the chapter about this eunuch in more detail.

Just because Virginia Mollenkott said it doesn't mean it's true

I've talked to Virginia a few times. She comes to our Seminary often to do Seminars on Gender Queer Sexuality (she was just here last May). And she will readily admit that she is NOT a theologian. She was an English teach for 45 years. She is in a lot of organizations and she has gained a lot of respect from LGBT organizations...she even has won my respect. But it doesn't mean what she says is right when every other Queer theologian disagrees with her interpretations of some of the scripture...and that's ok.

She even told our class that she is no theologian. Matter of fact, she comes to our Seminary and other Seminaries to learn more about Queer Theology as she herself is a student in this field and nowhere near an educator level on this subject.

Her book, "Omnigender" did not get rave reviews by other Queer theologians. While the Queer theology community do have an enormous respect for her and the courage to delve into such a subject, many of her theories or just theories. Hence, why she still takes Queer Theology classes. "Omnigender" did not do well in scholar circles...even queer circles. Many seminary bookstores had to mark the book down 90% because most of the book was about her opinion and not real evidence of interpretation of Queer Thelogy. I bought the book myself for 75 cents; I'm staring at the book right now on my bookshelf.

In her book, a lot of people in the Bible were transgender, omnigender, genderqueer, etc...and there is absolutely no evidence, textually or critically that those people were transgender. She even believes Jesus was genderqueer. There's nothing in the scriptures that would support any of her evidence.

I respect her and her ambitions but she will even admit these are simply theories. You cannot base your own theology and level of Godly acceptance by taking a passage and assuming Jesus was talking about Transgender people...because Jesus wasn't. Sarah is right about Matthew 19. When you take a passage you take the passages before and after to start to interpret the scriptures. It had nothing to do with transgender people at all.

I am a transgender pastor. If anyone wanted to believe Mollenkott, it would be me since my professional career involves me being a Christian and a transgender. There aren't a whole lot of transgender pastors out there...we need all the help we can get. However, I simply cannot add things in these scriptures that aren't even there. The reason why I make such a big deal about this is because the Right Wing Churches are infamous for taking scripture and bending it to their own accord in order to make themselves more "Godly" while a gay person will go to hell. I kind of have an issue with scripture bending. The same goes for those who try to bend the scripture to try to make it conform to their accords.

Reading and interpreting scripture isn't something to be taken lightly. Millions of people have died through executions, wars, revenge, witchcraft, because of their sexuality, religion, or culture since the birth of Christianity because people have read the scriptures and made assumptions. Now, I am not saying people who add transgender stories will kill people...but I am saying that same type of method of adding things to make another gender or sexuality "kosher" is the wrong way to do this.

If you want to be accepted in Christian circles then don't say "see, this is the part where Jesus loves transgenders" (because the people you are trying to convince will not believe you...I'm transgender myself and I disagree with you). To fight for acceptance you must constantly remind other Christians Jesus' greatest commandment: "To love your God and to love your neighbor as yourself."  That one verse covers everyone: Gay, Straight, trans, lesbians, bi, Asians, Latinos, Blacks, Whites...everyone.

But it seems like you are trying to convince yourself by believing that passage pertains to you rather than you trying to convince others.

Listen, that book was really helpful for me, I was at a place where i could not accept myself. It doesn't matter if it can be proven or dis-proven that the Ethiopian eunuch was genderfluid of some sort. That was just one small note in a chapter. I read the entire book and it lifted a veil from my eyes. Also reading another book "what the bible really says about homosexuality" helped a massive amount. It took away the strength of the fundamental conservative arguments against homosexuality for me. I needed these books to find some inner peace, and I am so glad my pastor got them for me. (She is a lesbian pastor at a UCC Church)

Another place that really helped was the wouldjesusdiscriminate.org website . Those audio sermons were also helpful in getting me from a place of fear to a place of hope. I think we are getting off track here anyways, this thread was not started by me, i was trying my best to offer some comfort and peace.

I did find some other references to gender variant people in other religions and texts, so if a person can accept that, they should

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/->-bleeped-<-_and_religion

So , this is simply a matter of faith for me, now, I am deciding to just have faith that God is ok with me.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 15, 2012, 12:24:21 AM
No, all LGBTQQI people are God's extravagant, I consider myself a lesbian and I read a book called "What the bible really says about homosexuality" which is written by 2 authors, both Christian and they explain rather well the clobbering passages and explain scripture in a way that is very helpful, you should read it. Anyone who is LGBTQQI would get a lot of comfort from that book.

Taking hormones alters your body also, your still altering it from the current state. Again a loving God would not punish me for altering my endocrine system as someone told me. So I still see a pre op or non op transsexual having some similarities to a Eunuch. Yes its not the same thing , but regardless for me personally it helps to know I am born this way.

I found a few things that you might consider:

Isaiah 56.3-5

Do not let the foreigner joined to the Lord say,
"The Lord will surely separate me from his people";
and do not let the eunuch say,
"I am just a dry tree."
For thus says the Lord:
To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
I will give, in my house and within my walls,
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.

This passage is God's vision given to Isaiah of the restoration of his people. The surrounding chapters resound with social justice and the welcoming of those who were formerly despised into the presence of God. Although the term 'eunuch' is not a perfect fit for transgender people, it does, in context, refer to those who were outside of society's strictly male-female order. It is interesting to note that this passage from Isaiah couples eunuchs with foreigners as those previously despised, comparing transphobia with xenophobia and racism, a failure to accept those who are different. The 'sons and daughters' who had previously prided themselves in their inherent possession of God's kingdom are to be superseded by foreigners and eunuchs. Likewise, Jesus mentions eunuchs as a positive example of entering the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 19.12, and Philip befriended, taught and baptized an Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8.27-39.

Again, this passage describes Eunuchs...not you as a transgender person.

What she is saying is that culturally, many people looked down on Eunuchs like they did with lepers. The Eunuch was downcast from society because their testicles were cut off. In many cultures back then (and still today) a man's masculinity is determined by his testicles and his ability to have children. The culture of this time period looked down on the Eunuchs because they were no longer "men" due to them not having testicles...this is no way implies that the Eunuchs were women either. Eunuchs did not view themselves as women...not in the slightest. They viewed themselves as men who could not procreate. It's like today when a man has an accident and has to have his testicles removed....by the strictest since of the word, he is a Eunuch but that doesn't mean he's going to start buying dresses for himself and get his gender changed. He is still a man. However, in the culture of long ago, some cultures did not view them as men....they did not view them as women either. They viewed them as a lesser person who lost the ability to procreate and the ability to do that one thing men could do.

The author of this blog was comparing the struggles the Eunuch had when people did not view them as legitimate men to the transgender people when people do not view us as real women or men.

This has nothing to do that we are spiritually Eunuchs and when the Bible was talking about Eunuchs the bible was really talking about transgender people. When the Bible was talking about Eunuchs the Bible really was talking about Eunuchs.