I think you're onto something there. Could be worse, could be a Chupacabras.

I have turned a blind eye to what?

I like chickens, eating them, that is. They are tasty. I have actually spent a small amount of time recently, thinking: do they have another function in this world?

I think not. They's GOOD EATIN! Period. End of story. Blind Eye or what-have-you.

If you are not a practicing, nay, religiously practicing vegetarian, my advice to you, is maybe stay away from such a judgment of another's ethics - about a chicken. LOL

the Middle Way

which is Not the Extreme Way
no way

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 30, 2007, 06:15:00 PM
I think you're onto something there. Could be worse, could be a Chupacabras.

You don't actually believe in that one do yez?

Nah,

torturing cows is something only bored country folk can do.

As for the vegetarian thing, I personally think that meat gives a dinner focus and without it, you got veg. Which is nice, but nice in the way Pete Poslethwaite is nice. He makes a great character actor, he just don't carry a whole film.

When I was a kid, I had a pet rooster, known by the descriptive name of 'Little Yellow Rooster.' He came when called and would ride on the handlebars of my bike, looking pleased.

Pooping where you eat doesn't make you stupid, it just makes you a creature with poor bowel control. The wild ancestors of chickens don't forage in the same place every day, so it doesn't matter if they poop there, they will be feeding somewhere else tomorrow. Geese are fabulously intelligent and forget nothing, and are biologically incapable of not pooping every couple of minutes.

Dr. Irene Pepperburg's lengthy studies in teaching African Grey Parrots to speak with cognition has concluded that the parrots have the intellect of an average five-year-old human, and the emotional maturity of a three-year-old human. Alex the parrot does speak with cognition. If you ask him what colour or shape something is, he will tell you correctly. He also expresses desires, and if he asks for a certain food item and you give him something else, he gets angry and will throw it at you. Not too long ago he was ill and was taken to the vet. When he realised he was about to be taken back to the clinic's hospital-ward, he said, "I'm sorry, I wanna go back." Parrots are very bright, but probably stupider than crows. The part of the human brain that allows us to do these kinds of thinking is not present in avian brains, but it is absolutely clear that birds can do this sort of thinking.

About ten years ago a grad-student at the University of Guelph did a mini-study with chickens. She gave several parrot-owning families day old white leghorn chicks and asked them to raise the chicks as pets, giving them the same social interactions as they gave their beloved parrots. The parrot owners reported that they did not find the chickens to be particularly stupider than their parrots, and they all wanted to (and were allowed to) keep their pet chickens.

Probably everything is brighter than we figure. You can train a guppy to jump over a match-stick on command.

Quote from: Doc on May 30, 2007, 06:40:27 PM

Pooping where you eat doesn't make you stupid, it just makes you a creature with poor bowel control. The wild ancestors of chickens don't forage in the same place every day, so it doesn't matter if they poop there, they will be feeding somewhere else tomorrow.

Well that isn't the same thing at all. And I have little doubt that chickens were not as stupid, not nearly, in the wild, as they appear to be, domesticated. But I am sticking to my story here. These critters am not so very bright. I have heard reports of escape-artist genius chickens, but guess what? That chicken farmer eats hers, especially if they get too stupid on the job.  THIS roommate had elevated chickens to a sort of elite position, above the food-chain so-to-speak, and well, there's a new bar-b-q joint in the nayborhood...

And I thought Chupacabra was some kind of goat-monster-from-hell. I do know, that down in places where they got roosters - to a man, they got roosters - you don't idly mention The Chupacabra, else they'll be TRUBBLE! Believe you, me.

I vaguely remember some X Files episode, Chupacabra! Better go back and take a look.

 

they're as sentient as you are.

http://goveg.com/f-hiddenliveschickens_brainy.asp 

QuoteWell that isn't the same thing at all. And I have little doubt that chickens were not as stupid, not nearly, in the wild, as they appear to be, domesticated.

Well, any creature that is raised in an 'enriched' environment (one with places to go, things to do, and  novel events and objects) will score better on any 'intelligence' measure we have than one raised in a blank environment. If you want a stupid dog, get an adult dog that spent its entire puppyhood confined alone in a kennel with no toys. No matter if it's a notoriously smart breed like a border collie or a notoriously dumb one like a bulldog, the dog with the impovershed childhood will be dumb as rocks and probably fearful and neurotic. Just like a typical chicken. These chickens-raised-as-parrots were of the most common and highly-domesticated breed, but toys and interaction are a must for parrots, so the chickens were raised in an 'enriched' situation and thus grew up smart. Though my experience with my own chickens, the more common domesticated breeds seemed stupider than the prettier rare breeds that are physically closer to the wild-type.

QuoteTHIS roommate had elevated chickens to a sort of elite position, above the food-chain so-to-speak, and well, there's a new bar-b-q joint in the nayborhood...

Heh. Ick. I am all for eating chickens should you be so inclined. Intelligence or emotional sensitivity do not give anybody or anything a free ride or a 'right' to be disconnected from the biotic enterprise. All living things must die and all corpses are in their turn eaten. The obscenity in eating chickens is not the eating of chickens, it is that most chickens we eat live non-lives. The same impovershed environment that causes them to be stupider than they ought to be strips their lives of joy and meaning, and the fact that they are treated like machine cogs devalues our own act of eating, transforming our relationship with food from one of intimacy to one of abuse.

Quote from: Doc on May 30, 2007, 07:14:45 PM

QuoteWell that isn't the same thing at all. And I have little doubt that chickens were not as stupid, not nearly, in the wild, as they appear to be, domesticated.

QuoteTHIS roommate had elevated chickens to a sort of elite position, above the food-chain so-to-speak, and well, there's a new bar-b-q joint in the nayborhood...

Heh. Ick. I am all for eating chickens should you be so inclined. Intelligence or emotional sensitivity do not give anybody or anything a free ride or a 'right' to be disconnected from the biotic enterprise. All living things must die and all corpses are in their turn eaten. The obscenity in eating chickens is not the eating of chickens, it is that most chickens we eat live non-lives. The same impovershed environment that causes them to be stupider than they ought to be strips their lives of joy and meaning, and the fact that they are treated like machine cogs devalues our own act of eating, transforming our relationship with food from one of intimacy to one of abuse.

Well, I have to come clean. These chickens were pets. Not very responsive pets, I might add. And noisy damn beasts to boot.

The lady, would-be-chicken-farmer's boy is allergic to stuff, it turns out the same stuff, pretty much, that I am allergic to. He has severe asthma. I have noticed that the boy is allergic to chickens. So we're talking about a weird co-dependent situation with the chickens (and the rabbits, especially "Michael", who basically eats newspapers on the kitchen floor all day), at the expense of actual persons, her own, in fact. And here I am, not allowed to bring chickens-for-eating up in the actual house.

So, I am kinda sorta struggling with Chicken Ethics as a result of this peculiar set of circumstances.
And so I wanted to ask, what's the deal?

And I am somewhat surprised at the thoughtfulness that is turning out of this topic, here.

Go Figure.

TMW

PS: My thought on Cannibalism, btw, per your biotic enterprise thought, is that it's more ethical than, say, creating a war in Iraq.

Anyway, what did chickens (back-in-the-day, before their stupidity was more-or-less enforced so we wouldn't feel too terrible about killing them for culinary purposes) actually do, you know with their sentient ways? I am clearly stuck on the thought that their function, nowadays, the only days I really now, is to be et.

Ah. In that case, probably the fact that the chickens are chickens is not really relevant. It sounds as if this person is working on becoming a pathological animal collector. This is not the same as having lots of pets, pet-keeping is about having a whole relationship with an animal, animal-collecting is about believing that you are a savior and protector and the animal can have zero companion-qualities and still satisfy that. This vision of the self as a holy protector and savior of innocent little animals will be more important to the collector than the actual relationship the collector has with the animals, or her relationships with people, or her own comfort and health. Having a bunch of chickens that are not sociable with humans or pleasant companions, failing to keep them and their enclosure clean, and a militant additude about meat-eating is pretty consistant with a budding animal-collector. My only advice is to run away, because unless she gets so many chickens that they end up grossly neglected, there's not much you can do.

QuoteAnyway, what did chickens (back-in-the-day, before their stupidity was more-or-less enforced so we wouldn't feel too terrible about killing them for culinary purposes) actually do, you know with their sentient ways? I am clearly stuck on the thought that their function, nowadays, the only days I really now, is to be et.

Mostly they do the same things everybody else does. Look around for tasty stuff to eat, have sex, and raise babies.

Quote from: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 07:22:22 PM

Quote from: Doc on May 30, 2007, 07:14:45 PM

QuoteWell that isn't the same thing at all. And I have little doubt that chickens were not as stupid, not nearly, in the wild, as they appear to be, domesticated.

QuoteTHIS roommate had elevated chickens to a sort of elite position, above the food-chain so-to-speak, and well, there's a new bar-b-q joint in the nayborhood...

Heh. Ick. I am all for eating chickens should you be so inclined. Intelligence or emotional sensitivity do not give anybody or anything a free ride or a 'right' to be disconnected from the biotic enterprise. All living things must die and all corpses are in their turn eaten. The obscenity in eating chickens is not the eating of chickens, it is that most chickens we eat live non-lives. The same impovershed environment that causes them to be stupider than they ought to be strips their lives of joy and meaning, and the fact that they are treated like machine cogs devalues our own act of eating, transforming our relationship with food from one of intimacy to one of abuse.

Well, I have to come clean. These chickens were pets. Not very responsive pets, I might add. And noisy damn beasts to boot.

The lady, would-be-chicken-farmer's boy is allergic to stuff, it turns out the same stuff, pretty much, that I am allergic to. He has severe asthma. I have noticed that the boy is allergic to chickens. So we're talking about a weird co-dependent situation with the chickens (and the rabbits, especially "Michael", who basically eats newspapers on the kitchen floor all day), at the expense of actual persons, her own, in fact. And here I am, not allowed to bring chickens-for-eating up in the actual house.

So, I am kinda sorta struggling with Chicken Ethics as a result of this peculiar set of circumstances.
And so I wanted to ask, what's the deal?

And I am somewhat surprised at the thoughtfulness that is turning out of this topic, here.

Go Figure.

TMW

PS: My thought on Cannibalism, btw, per your biotic enterprise thought, is that it's more ethical than, say, creating a war in Iraq.

Anyway, what did chickens (back-in-the-day, before their stupidity was more-or-less enforced so we wouldn't feel too terrible about killing them for culinary purposes) actually do, you know with their sentient ways? I am clearly stuck on the thought that their function, nowadays, the only days I really now, is to be et.

   Personally, I think if you wanted to discuss the lack of curiosity of ball bearings within their natural environment, you couldn't get anything but the most thoughtful discussion from the folks who populate this forum.
   Crazy, but cool. There is a depth to everything.

Quote from: Katia on May 30, 2007, 07:04:49 PM


they're as sentient as you are.

http://goveg.com/f-hiddenliveschickens_brainy.asp 

Guess what? My whole thought here stemmed from the fact that this one lady wasn't having her son tested for allergies to chickens, out of some kind of I don't even know what for the chickens, and I like the boy better than the stupid chickens. Thinking, maybe he deserves a better deal than this.

By contrast, I don't think the chickens were too worried about it.

TMW

Quote from: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 07:22:22 PM
PS: My thought on Cannibalism, btw, per your biotic enterprise thought, is that it's more ethical than, say, creating a war in Iraq.

Anyway, what did chickens (back-in-the-day, before their stupidity was more-or-less enforced so we wouldn't feel too terrible about killing them for culinary purposes) actually do, you know with their sentient ways? I am clearly stuck on the thought that their function, nowadays, the only days I really now, is to be et.

   Before the domination of their species by ours, chickens served the exact same purpose that we did. To eat and to be eaten.

Quote from: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 06:24:08 PM
I think not. They's GOOD EATIN! Period. End of story. Blind Eye or what-have-you.

But that is exactly what I mean.

Quote from: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 06:24:08 PM
judgment of another's ethics

I have not called your ethics into question.

Nor have I judged you in any way.


I am, however, trying to point out that it isn't quite so simple as them just being around for lunch. ^*shrug* You are under no obligation to see that. Blindness to that, however, makes me sad. This is, however, nothing new.


^*shrug*

As you were, pay me no mind.
Oh, mind you if you are only referring to the domesticated idiots that tend to become food then I tend to agree; Not that they have had any say in it but they are lunch. Just don't think a wild peccary (for example) exists solely for the benefit of (generic)your food that is more of what I am on about Not that it makes it any less right to do what humans do but ^*shrug*, not my game.

Heh, if you consider 'animals' intelligent you find a lot of really disgusting things humans do. Blatant slavery among the crimes ^*shrug* But no one wants to see that now do they?


But this said, by the time it gets to your plate the animal is well past caring.

...
I wish I could explain. I wish I could put it in words you would understand. Here.. now.

Carry on I guess. We are used to being trod on.

Hey Middle...

Great troll!



Cindi

Quote from: Doc on May 30, 2007, 07:14:45 PM

QuoteThe obscenity in eating chickens is not the eating of chickens, it is that most chickens we eat live non-lives. The same impovershed environment that causes them to be stupider than they ought to be strips their lives of joy and meaning.

MMmmm, sounds like Coventry again.

What's a troll?

and,

What's coventry?

A troll is someone who puts comments to try and wind people up and create arguments. And Coventry is the dullest city in England, filled with the dullest people.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 31, 2007, 10:24:01 AM
A troll is someone who puts comments to try and wind people up and create arguments. And Coventry is the dullest city in England, filled with the dullest people.

They might not be so dull if they dressed like chickens.   Though, I think dressing like monkeys would make them appear even more fun.

Quote from: Zombies on May 30, 2007, 09:37:07 PM

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 30, 2007, 08:41:26 PM
Hey Middle...

Great troll!



Cindi

How is this a troll?

And this question comes from a young lass with a fish on her head!  Hey... is the fish sentient?



Cindi

Hmmmm, this is a very interesting thread. All that I care about as far as chickens are concerned is whether it is cooked throughly.