Hi!

I've came out to some people in the past months. Though many were supportive, a lot questioned whether I will ever have surgery or not, etc etc.

Turns out that people thought of me being an MtF, but I'm in the process of becoming something like MtA or MtFtA (in the sense of being bigender). And it has been hard to explain, because "so, you aren't really changing?" or "what's the purpose of changing and becoming almost the same as you are right now?".

The forest has been a complicated place to describe!

I know what you mean - since I've been more out about the androgyny of my gender (and transition), I've found it's easier to approach the general with people, before getting into the specifics of me. So we talk about the probability field that is gender, and then I explain how I'm in there somewhere (and about gender dysphoria), by which time they already have a slightly better map in their head. I find it works better than starting with "I'm this, now let me explain what this is..."

I've done the coming out thing with a few people.
more as "a different sort of transgender" then as androgyne, genderqueer or any other label. they generally don't need a label

yes it is difficult to explain to some pepole  and it always ends up with me saying im just me

Quote from: Padma on December 15, 2012, 04:32:11 AM
I know what you mean - since I've been more out about the androgyny of my gender (and transition), I've found it's easier to approach the general with people, before getting into the specifics of me. So we talk about the probability field that is gender, and then I explain how I'm in there somewhere (and about gender dysphoria), by which time they already have a slightly better map in their head. I find it works better than starting with "I'm this, now let me explain what this is..."

I told some people and they generally welcome it. Some ask whether if I'll (or not) change my gender ID (which is possible), but some people cannot grasp the "MtFtA" concept, because they think trespassing the line between M/F I'm becoming a transgendered female. However cool that might be, I still want to be something like what I am, just femaleish, and I don't mind being called "he" (or "she"), at least for now. I'm just thinking "if people see me as a female being, it's natural for them to call me by the female name" (I like the idea of being bigendered).

Have any of you had the problem of describing what MtFtA is?

Quote from: soulfairer on December 17, 2012, 07:40:43 AM
I told some people and they generally welcome it. Some ask whether if I'll (or not) change my gender ID (which is possible), but some people cannot grasp the "MtFtA" concept, because they think trespassing the line between M/F I'm becoming a transgendered female. However cool that might be, I still want to be something like what I am, just femaleish, and I don't mind being called "he" (or "she"), at least for now. I'm just thinking "if people see me as a female being, it's natural for them to call me by the female name" (I like the idea of being bigendered).

Have any of you had the problem of describing what MtFtA is?

I'm not MtFtA, but I feel FtMtF or FtMtN sometimes. Meaning (for me at least) I'd love to have started in a male body and be able to make my transition starting from that point. Is that how you feel? Like an androgyn(e) who would be more comfortable from a female starting point?

It's (somewhat) easy for me to explain myself as I am, because my gender identity and presentation are similar. I am neutrois, identifying as something completely neutral, not male or female at all. Thus, I modify my body and construct my presentation to remove or disguise as many secondary sex characteristics as I can. I'm neither rather than a little of both. I can see how it would be hard for someone whose gender identity doesn't match their presentation, as much as those two can go together, at least.

I'm aiming for F in body, but I'm A in gender (heh, sounds like test scores). Since I feel I'm somewhere between androgyne and woman (hence "womandrogyne"), I've had to resort to labels that people can relate to (like "trans tomboy") to get across the idea of someone who's female in anatomy but not your standard woman in terms of gender identity. I understand the FtMtF thing, coming at it from the other direction, I sometimes feel sure if I'd been born with female anatomy, I'd be transitioning towards androgyne, at least - so kind of a trans man trapped in a male body .

But a lot of this for me is because it feels like the only available options are M, F, or A (just like with sexuality it's mostly assumed there's just straight, gay, or bi), so I have to communicate (and am tempted to identify) from within that restrictive frame of reference. It's a very coarse-grained model to have to work with.

I've told a couple of friends and even some recent dates about my androgyny and my desire to get treatment. But mostly those have been people whom I know will react well since they already know others or know me well enough to understand.

So I still do worry about how to tell my parents about this non-binary gender identity. Right now I don't see acting like a girl an option anymore - I've never been one, but I always thought I somehow should try to be. Now that role seems really distant and I'm not going to hide the real me from them during Christmas. I'd hate to wear a bra nowadays, and I don't want to pass as a girl anymore. And I strongly dislike being called a girl, though I know I'll have to endure that for some time. I think it's best just to act what I feel like and show how happy I am with the way I dress and present myself. Maybe in time I will tell them about this and if I am approved for treatment, I will of course inform them about it and try to help them understand. Hopefully before that they will see that this is what I am, the real me. Sort of just have to "practice before I start to preach"

I'm out to perhaps a small majority of family, but I really want to throw a party and be out to everyone (and invite some friends) and have a fun time with it (at least as much as my family would do with the early religious sacraments that in retrospect did nothing for me).  I don't know if calling it a "coming-out party" would be right, though. XD

Quote from: Padma on December 17, 2012, 11:24:51 AM
I'm aiming for F in body, but I'm A in gender (heh, sounds like test scores). Since I feel I'm somewhere between androgyne and woman (hence "womandrogyne"), I've had to resort to labels that people can relate to (like "trans tomboy") to get across the idea of someone who's female in anatomy but not your standard woman in terms of gender identity. I understand the FtMtF thing, coming at it from the other direction, I sometimes feel sure if I'd been born with female anatomy, I'd be transitioning towards androgyne, at least - so kind of a trans man trapped in a male body .

But a lot of this for me is because it feels like the only available options are M, F, or A (just like with sexuality it's mostly assumed there's just straight, gay, or bi), so I have to communicate (and am tempted to identify) from within that restrictive frame of reference. It's a very coarse-grained model to have to work with.

It has been hard to explain. I usually tell: "There is this line. It represents true androgyny. I am right here, now (points to male spectrum, almost touching the line). I just want to be here (points to female spectrum, almost touching the line). There are certain aspects that just aren't easily reachable, and they are subtle.".

People usually think I am right where I wanted, but as you know, there is a greeeat path to walk through.

I try to give people a finer grained model, but it sometimes is just non-reachable without watching people a lot like we do - actually, we are more "strict" in that sense because we use to compare a lot - between us and other people and people in general.

Yesterday, going to the dentist, the clerk misspelled something in the female gender, referring to me. It was thrilling because it was so natural, that I must be closer to my goal.

I am letting my hair grow, but months or a year later I plan to cut it back and see if the changes are "still there" (as I think hair helps a lot, but let's see how I do fare using short hair)

Quote from: Phoeniks on December 17, 2012, 03:15:58 PM
I've told a couple of friends and even some recent dates about my androgyny and my desire to get treatment. But mostly those have been people whom I know will react well since they already know others or know me well enough to understand.

So I still do worry about how to tell my parents about this non-binary gender identity. Right now I don't see acting like a girl an option anymore - I've never been one, but I always thought I somehow should try to be. Now that role seems really distant and I'm not going to hide the real me from them during Christmas. I'd hate to wear a bra nowadays, and I don't want to pass as a girl anymore. And I strongly dislike being called a girl, though I know I'll have to endure that for some time. I think it's best just to act what I feel like and show how happy I am with the way I dress and present myself. Maybe in time I will tell them about this and if I am approved for treatment, I will of course inform them about it and try to help them understand. Hopefully before that they will see that this is what I am, the real me. Sort of just have to "practice before I start to preach"

Hope they get it. I am also worried about my parents, and sometimes they ask for kids (I am 30+, they are 65+). But I think it just isn't an option. I wouldn't have kids anyway.

(not that you mentioned, but reading about parents made me remember my parents want them)

I also don't see me acting like a girl (me wanting to be MtA or MtFtA or something like that). I think we should simply let go and forget about those definitions. There are girly things I love, there are masculine things I also love.

Cheers )

Quote from: soulfairer on December 20, 2012, 01:26:30 PM
Hope they get it. I am also worried about my parents, and sometimes they ask for kids (I am 30+, they are 65+). But I think it just isn't an option. I wouldn't have kids anyway.

(not that you mentioned, but reading about parents made me remember my parents want them)

I also don't see me acting like a girl (me wanting to be MtA or MtFtA or something like that). I think we should simply let go and forget about those definitions. There are girly things I love, there are masculine things I also love.

Cheers )

Mine want kids, too, especially my mom since mine would be the only grandchildren she'd get. And I've never had any interest to get one. That's one of the many reasons I still haven't told them about my gender issues.

I think definitions are overrated, too. Acting a girl, for me, is what I used to be. I'm only 24, but I was a terrible closet case and lived in a female role, always feeling odd about why my life never seemed like it was my own and why I felt I could never be me with others around. So yeah, in that way I can't act a girl anymore, now that I've seen life with meaning and color. It's both the greatest blessing and a curse to find out who you are.

I've come out to most of my friends and all who I enjoy talking deeper stuff with, now. It just sort of happened, it felt necessary for me to be able to spend time with people. And during these past weeks I've enjoyed the company of others so much more than ever before. I used to look forward to going home and being alone so I could feel more real and more myself, but now... I've sort of merged into me when I'm with people, too. Relationships don't feel empty anymore. (It's funny how certain I sound about being on the right path when I write stuff like this, but at the same time I'm still questioning my decisions and having angst about whether I've just really gone crazy at last. )

Quote from: Phoeniks on December 22, 2012, 06:57:53 AM
Mine want kids, too, especially my mom since mine would be the only grandchildren she'd get. And I've never had any interest to get one. That's one of the many reasons I still haven't told them about my gender issues.

I think definitions are overrated, too. Acting a girl, for me, is what I used to be. I'm only 24, but I was a terrible closet case and lived in a female role, always feeling odd about why my life never seemed like it was my own and why I felt I could never be me with others around. So yeah, in that way I can't act a girl anymore, now that I've seen life with meaning and color. It's both the greatest blessing and a curse to find out who you are.

I've come out to most of my friends and all who I enjoy talking deeper stuff with, now. It just sort of happened, it felt necessary for me to be able to spend time with people. And during these past weeks I've enjoyed the company of others so much more than ever before. I used to look forward to going home and being alone so I could feel more real and more myself, but now... I've sort of merged into me when I'm with people, too. Relationships don't feel empty anymore. (It's funny how certain I sound about being on the right path when I write stuff like this, but at the same time I'm still questioning my decisions and having angst about whether I've just really gone crazy at last. )

So we're at the same point, just from the opposite side - I'm also the only who would give them grandchildren! And I don't want myself to *be read* as a boy anymore. But I don't want to be so girly also. And THIS is very difficult to express to many people. Often they ask if I want to dress skirts or short dresses, etc, but I'm not exactly into them. But I'm 32, but it's still difficult to tell parents/relatives. I am also treated as a model for a male role in some circles, a myth I'm just beginning to break.

And I'm also seeing more colors in life, too. And they are being reflected in my clothes! I like colors, a lot, but almost only plain ones (there are just a few patterns and drawings must mean something or be very good). I've been choosing, choosing a lot of things now. Taking stances for a lot of them, because as I said in another thread, there is no more time. Nothing is meaningless now... (and yes, I do question myself all the time, also thinking if I just went crazy, hahahaha)

very happy to see you!

Quote from: soulfairer on December 23, 2012, 02:40:53 AM
So we're at the same point, just from the opposite side - I'm also the only who would give them grandchildren! And I don't want myself to *be read* as a boy anymore. But I don't want to be so girly also. And THIS is very difficult to express to many people. Often they ask if I want to dress skirts or short dresses, etc, but I'm not exactly into them. But I'm 32, but it's still difficult to tell parents/relatives. I am also treated as a model for a male role in some circles, a myth I'm just beginning to break.

And I'm also seeing more colors in life, too. And they are being reflected in my clothes! I like colors, a lot, but almost only plain ones (there are just a few patterns and drawings must mean something or be very good). I've been choosing, choosing a lot of things now. Taking stances for a lot of them, because as I said in another thread, there is no more time. Nothing is meaningless now... (and yes, I do question myself all the time, also thinking if I just went crazy, hahahaha)

very happy to see you!

Yeah, I totally understand the need to not transition into a "girly girl", too. I'm a feminine boy, and probably wouldn't have a problem with getting occasionally read as a girl, either - if I knew that was only because of clothing and make-up. I love my eye-liners and sparkly stuff and all, and expressing that side of me is difficult without looking like a girl.

Those myths can be hard to break. I know one of my older relatives really admires me because I'm "such a masculine girl". I think the older people would be just confused if I really explained to them how I want them to see me, how I feel I am. So maybe I just need to act the way I am and dress like I want and when asked about it, just say that this is me and I like me this way. (Yeah, telling about this to relatives really bugs me a lot. )

Yeah, life got meaning because of all this. Sometimes I question if this is just a means for me to get to know myself a bit better and whether the gender stuff is really that important. Or if I can really be sure. But this is the one thing that I have discovered by myself, without any help or opinions from the outside, this is the thing I found when I decided to really confront myself and stare myself in the mirror and try to see the person inside the flesh that didn't feel my own. So I really shouldn't doubt myself this much, I do know I've never been so real about anything before this. Everything I do to make me feel more like me is about feeling more like a boy, and vice versa. And it's just such a relief. (even if the little voice in my head is commenting that even so, this may just be my medication speaking )

Quote from: Phoeniks on December 23, 2012, 03:33:37 PM
Yeah, I totally understand the need to not transition into a "girly girl", too. I'm a feminine boy, and probably wouldn't have a problem with getting occasionally read as a girl, either - if I knew that was only because of clothing and make-up. I love my eye-liners and sparkly stuff and all, and expressing that side of me is difficult without looking like a girl.

Those myths can be hard to break. I know one of my older relatives really admires me because I'm "such a masculine girl". I think the older people would be just confused if I really explained to them how I want them to see me, how I feel I am. So maybe I just need to act the way I am and dress like I want and when asked about it, just say that this is me and I like me this way. (Yeah, telling about this to relatives really bugs me a lot. )

Yeah, life got meaning because of all this. Sometimes I question if this is just a means for me to get to know myself a bit better and whether the gender stuff is really that important. Or if I can really be sure. But this is the one thing that I have discovered by myself, without any help or opinions from the outside, this is the thing I found when I decided to really confront myself and stare myself in the mirror and try to see the person inside the flesh that didn't feel my own. So I really shouldn't doubt myself this much, I do know I've never been so real about anything before this. Everything I do to make me feel more like me is about feeling more like a boy, and vice versa. And it's just such a relief. (even if the little voice in my head is commenting that even so, this may just be my medication speaking )

Ah, that is the tradeoff, and I realize clothing and make-up are hard to give up in many cases If the world accepted both genders using al least make-up, it would be a much nicer place - I know many cismen who would like to wear make-up!

Today, someone took a photo of me and my cousins together. Looked like I was the third one (they are ciswomen). In this year, I don't know if they will realize something, and my aunt mistook me as another niece thrice (I couldn't be more thrilled, because that never happened, heh). And I used less neutral, almost female, clothing, to test whether they would complain, tell something, or not (which they didn't).

I also think a lot about the gender stuff: "is that really, really necessary? can't I just be very close to the border?", but everytime I look at the mirror and wear my (today second) persona, my face changes and I just smile. So that must be it.

Quote from: soulfairer on December 24, 2012, 11:57:44 PM
Ah, that is the tradeoff, and I realize clothing and make-up are hard to give up in many cases If the world accepted both genders using al least make-up, it would be a much nicer place - I know many cismen who would like to wear make-up!

Today, someone took a photo of me and my cousins together. Looked like I was the third one (they are ciswomen). In this year, I don't know if they will realize something, and my aunt mistook me as another niece thrice (I couldn't be more thrilled, because that never happened, heh). And I used less neutral, almost female, clothing, to test whether they would complain, tell something, or not (which they didn't).

I also think a lot about the gender stuff: "is that really, really necessary? can't I just be very close to the border?", but everytime I look at the mirror and wear my (today second) persona, my face changes and I just smile. So that must be it.

Ah, Christmas made me question if transitioning "over the border" is really necessary for me, too. It's almost comical how moody I can get with that, thinking that my relatives would never accept it. I'm seriously considering trying to pass as a butch girl to them for the rest of my life, there are maybe two family members I could imagine telling about this.

But at the same time I can't imagine not wearing a binder and feeling comfortable around people. I've never felt this real or calm with others before. Funny that even knowing this, I'm still thinking whether I really can and if this is really right. Smiling seeing myself in the mirror and looking all flat and boyish and still questioning.

But as far as the topic goes, I've sort of started to slowly prepare my relatives for this change. Since I don't still know how "far" I will go with my transition, I decided I'll just try to be more myself around them and see what happens. I got lots of odd stares from them, and even some comments about how I'm not even recognizable from last year (well duh, I hated the person I saw in the mirror back then). One relative even asked advice from me about what kind of a car he planned to get, I know he was joking around but it was interesting to be included in the men's circle, for sure.

I know some of them were even a bit confused. But until I really know I'm going to do something that is clearly recognizable (starting T or having surgery), I'm thinking maybe I don't need to include them in the process that much. I really want to have a support circle of other genderqueers around me before I do, just to ease into things and to understand that I really am able to do this, even with all the social stigma.

Quote from: Phoeniks on December 26, 2012, 11:41:45 AM
Ah, Christmas made me question if transitioning "over the border" is really necessary for me, too. It's almost comical how moody I can get with that, thinking that my relatives would never accept it. I'm seriously considering trying to pass as a butch girl to them for the rest of my life, there are maybe two family members I could imagine telling about this.

But at the same time I can't imagine not wearing a binder and feeling comfortable around people. I've never felt this real or calm with others before. Funny that even knowing this, I'm still thinking whether I really can and if this is really right. Smiling seeing myself in the mirror and looking all flat and boyish and still questioning.

But as far as the topic goes, I've sort of started to slowly prepare my relatives for this change. Since I don't still know how "far" I will go with my transition, I decided I'll just try to be more myself around them and see what happens. I got lots of odd stares from them, and even some comments about how I'm not even recognizable from last year (well duh, I hated the person I saw in the mirror back then). One relative even asked advice from me about what kind of a car he planned to get, I know he was joking around but it was interesting to be included in the men's circle, for sure.

I know some of them were even a bit confused. But until I really know I'm going to do something that is clearly recognizable (starting T or having surgery), I'm thinking maybe I don't need to include them in the process that much. I really want to have a support circle of other genderqueers around me before I do, just to ease into things and to understand that I really am able to do this, even with all the social stigma.

"over the border" is a term few people understand (welcome to the forest!). Even LGBT support group people - I know some people in my country - don't get it 'right away'. So when I came out to a friend of mine that actually is part of some LGBT support here, he quickly stated that I need to go further and then go perhaps back to androgyne (in some aspects he may be right as butch girls came from the other border to look male-ish – but and if the mirror tells me otherwise? The spectrum journey should be ours).

I felt comfortable at the family gathering and people also said I'm not recognizable in some sense (longer hair, I talk much more, etc – I also hated the person I saw in the mirror, haha). I was safe in starting E because of my age, as changes take more time to happen, but now I'm reaching the point that I'll have to say something to people.

Hope you can find the circle of support for you - even if it's crafted by your own best friends - as it is very important, I feel. We both carry stigmas either because we're 'creatures' or because we don't fit easily in some box (even the T one), so have a bunch of good friends that understand exactly what you feel and the journey should be 'easier'...

i'm almost starting to get envious that you guys seem to be so close to that line in the middle. i'm also there some times, and aim to get my presentation and body somewhere closer to that too. but other than that, i'm still more of a guy than a girl (not that my parents want to notice). my body is very feminine, and i love it, at the same time as i hate not having a really masculine body. and i've no idea how to come out as a little bit of everything to my parents. my younger siblings already realized though, so they won't be a problem. i don't even think most of my friends and colleagues will have any problems with me constantly changing into more of me, but i still worry about my parents. i don't think they'll ever get it, or even want to listen.

at least i have a child already,  so that's something i won't need to hear them complain about later.

Quote from: Taka on January 02, 2013, 03:50:21 AM
i'm almost starting to get envious that you guys seem to be so close to that line in the middle. i'm also there some times, and aim to get my presentation and body somewhere closer to that too. but other than that, i'm still more of a guy than a girl (not that my parents want to notice). my body is very feminine, and i love it, at the same time as i hate not having a really masculine body. and i've no idea how to come out as a little bit of everything to my parents. my younger siblings already realized though, so they won't be a problem. i don't even think most of my friends and colleagues will have any problems with me constantly changing into more of me, but i still worry about my parents. i don't think they'll ever get it, or even want to listen.

at least i have a child already,  so that's something i won't need to hear them complain about later.

But I sometimes want to have a very feminine body. And yet I am aiming to the middle, so how would that math sum? So that I am just going. The next steps will be bonuses, but I just need more so that people recognize me as female even when wearing masculine clothes. That is a probably very hard goal to accomplish and I am thinking that in this very case only FFS will help more.

But then finally choosing FFS is a bold choice, but I haven't discarded it it is just that I am still changing, would I be able to reach that only with HRT? Phoeniks, are you there? And your POV?

BTW: thank you for saying I am close ))

Quote from: soulfairer on January 02, 2013, 05:18:06 AM
But I sometimes want to have a very feminine body. And yet I am aiming to the middle, so how would that math sum? So that I am just going. The next steps will be bonuses, but I just need more so that people recognize me as female even when wearing masculine clothes. That is a probably very hard goal to accomplish and I am thinking that in this very case only FFS will help more.

But then finally choosing FFS is a bold choice, but I haven't discarded it it is just that I am still changing, would I be able to reach that only with HRT? Phoeniks, are you there? And your POV?

BTW: thank you for saying I am close ))

Yes I'm here, just been having one of those daily "what if I'm lying to myself" -moments

It's hard to tell what's needed without trying it out, first. I just think you are very close, already The best persons to seek answers from seem to be strangers, since most people usually don't think outside gender binary... Maybe trying masculine clothes made for women and then walking with them in public would help? FFS seems, to me, the option to choose when obviously easier choices haven't worked as well as wanted.

Quote from: Taka on January 02, 2013, 03:50:21 AM
i'm almost starting to get envious that you guys seem to be so close to that line in the middle. i'm also there some times, and aim to get my presentation and body somewhere closer to that too. but other than that, i'm still more of a guy than a girl (not that my parents want to notice). my body is very feminine, and i love it, at the same time as i hate not having a really masculine body. and i've no idea how to come out as a little bit of everything to my parents. my younger siblings already realized though, so they won't be a problem. i don't even think most of my friends and colleagues will have any problems with me constantly changing into more of me, but i still worry about my parents. i don't think they'll ever get it, or even want to listen.

Hmm... I guess my problem is that my "middle" is in between male and neutrois, not male-woman. And that's far away from where I'm now. I've had some kind of dissociation/depersonalization going on since I was 10-12 y old, and it seems more and more likely that it started because of this gender stuff. So now, I completely hate it when I see a woman looking back at me from my old pics. I wasn't alive as a woman, I lived in a dream and just acted everything out. Even if my feminine body isn't ugly when I try to think about it objectively, I'm just very dissociated from it and don't understand it's a female body and female curves I'm looking at. They are just out of place, as well as my social role has been.

But since I'm still not completely certain of whether this is the real deal or if I am just plain nuts, I still haven't got the courage to tell my relatives. I reached a tipping point with my friends etc. for 1-2 months ago and just didn't care about their opinions anymore, but family is a different thing. My only solution with that has been to start acting the way I feel I am when I'm around them. And avoid being with them for long amounts of time due to anxiety. Maybe after time passes, their opinion will matter less than telling them and thus trying to finally form a relationship with them that truly means something to me...

But yea, not yet. Since I'm still thinking that transition could only be something I'm using to make myself feel more free and more alive, and the real reason is something else entirely. Maybe those feelings that parents could never understand and therefore they can't yet be told really derive from our own uncertainties. That's probably the case with me at least.