And how do those concepts play into the way you identify yourself?

(I'm not talking about the dictionary or societal definitions of masculine and feminine. I mean your personal definitions. You might be influenced by society but your also influenced by your own family, friends, and personal experiences.)

This is probably going to sound rather stupid, but bear with me.

Personally, I think that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' exist solely through how people who identify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' express themselves and their identities. In other words, any activity can be either masculine, feminine, both or neither, depending on how you see it through your own personal perspective.

For instance, I consider myself to be predominantly feminine. Thus, most of the activities I engage in in my everyday life are feminine. Pursuits of mine that are commonly said to be masculine (video games, mathematics etc.) also come under this banner of 'feminine', because I'm feminine, and I'm the one doing them.

The problem with society is that it tends to think of gender expression in very rigid terms, when in reality what's considered masculine and feminine can and does change frequently over time and varies considerably by culture. In centuries past, make-up was commonly used by nobility regardless of gender. Many forms of dress were intended for use primarily by men or even for all genders, and in fact, many dresses in other cultures still are. Women nowadays are pressured to be slim and trim, yet in decades past slimming was actively discouraged.

So because applying a monolithic society's views of gender expression to individual people clearly doesn't work, I see it as stemming from your identity and how parts of your identity project themselves onto those activities.

Great question.

Before I start, need to say there are a lot of men who fit the definition of feminine and a lot of women who fit the definition of masculine.

Intended to be descriptive not restrictive.

Masculine means an emphasis on strength, on being tough enough to handle whatever needs to be handled, being willing to step up when strength, endurance, or courage is needed, without regard to whether your own strength, endurance, or courage might or might not be up to the task. Masculine means protecting, building things that will endure and stand up to whatever punishment they are given, taking responsibility for outcomes regardless of the obstacles.

Feminine means sending out positive supportive energy into the world. It means attention to detail to make sure that life is enriched and enriching. Feminine is dedication to making the world a more attractive, pleasant, cheerful place, reminding and helping people appreciate what they have and giving them the confidence and help needed to make the most of their lives. It means giving a little bit of yourself and watching that little bit blossom into a lot of goodness.

We all are capable of being masculine and feminine when we need to be and each man or women has their preference to how masculine or feminine they want to be. But the norms, habits, and expectations of the two genders  tend to run along those lines.

I think AG put it very well. Her definitions do seem to fit quite well with how I view masculine and feminine attributes. They are shared by most people despite how they identify.

Quote from: Cassandra Hyacinth on December 11, 2012, 12:57:54 PM
This is probably going to sound rather stupid, but bear with me.

Personally, I think that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' exist solely through how people who identify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' express themselves and their identities. In other words, any activity can be either masculine, feminine, both or neither, depending on how you see it through your own personal perspective.

For instance, I consider myself to be predominantly feminine. Thus, most of the activities I engage in in my everyday life are feminine. Pursuits of mine that are commonly said to be masculine (video games, mathematics etc.) also come under this banner of 'feminine', because I'm feminine, and I'm the one doing them.

The problem with society is that it tends to think of gender expression in very rigid terms, when in reality what's considered masculine and feminine can and does change frequently over time and varies considerably by culture. In centuries past, make-up was commonly used by nobility regardless of gender. Many forms of dress were intended for use primarily by men or even for all genders, and in fact, many dresses in other cultures still are. Women nowadays are pressured to be slim and trim, yet in decades past slimming was actively discouraged.

So because applying a monolithic society's views of gender expression to individual people clearly doesn't work, I see it as stemming from your identity and how parts of your identity project themselves onto those activities.

Like Cassandra ^^^ I do not let societal or family views of masculinity or femininity affect me or skew my views of the world. I am female that is all, and I do what ever pleases me in what ever manner I chose.


So, I guess to be perfectly hones .. the short answer is they mean nothing to me

 Masculinity and femininity are subtle, like the trim on a piece of clothing. They accent what a person does in their own little way, and most people will have a bit of both to express.

That expression is unique to the individual, because masculinity and femininity are relative - that is, what is very masculine to one person may be only a little masculine to someone else. Typically, people want to be in their own middle ground unless they're trying to show off for someone.

For some men, that middle ground is accepted to be quite feminine, and some women feel more at home with being what is thought of as masculine. Knowing that this is very normal and common is important, because nobody should have to try to be more masculine or feminine than they are to earn the respect of others.

So, therefore, masculinity and femininity are personality traits, and while they can play a very big role on who your friends are, and what kind of people are attracted to you, I consider them to be unimportant. To me, they are trim on the jacket.

Quote from: Cassandra Hyacinth on December 11, 2012, 12:57:54 PM
This is probably going to sound rather stupid, but bear with me.

Personally, I think that 'masculinity' and 'femininity' exist solely through how people who identify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' express themselves and their identities. In other words, any activity can be either masculine, feminine, both or neither, depending on how you see it through your own personal perspective.

For instance, I consider myself to be predominantly feminine. Thus, most of the activities I engage in in my everyday life are feminine. Pursuits of mine that are commonly said to be masculine (video games, mathematics etc.) also come under this banner of 'feminine', because I'm feminine, and I'm the one doing them.

I agree with Cassandra's post, especially this^ part. I think that even though society has its views of what it popularly views as masculine or feminine, masculinity and femininity are defined by the people the action not by the action itself.

As far as how it plays into me/my identity. I can definitely say that most of my life I was obsessed with masculinity though probably sub-consciously. I was always a masculine kid but looking back a lot of my issues stemmed from living up to my own ideas of what masculine meant in my society (aggressiveness/intimidation, not talking about/showing emotions especially sadness). It also had a lot to do with trying to be intimidating to avoid being bullied, the target of violence or being picked on, a kind of "protective shell" I guess. I feel that's what masculinity ended up being for me back then. I think it really had a negative effect on my life and for a number of reasons I really got a late start in learning how to express my emotions, realising that it was nothing short of unhealthy to leave it bottled up inside.

I've always been interested in stereotypically "masculine" activities (got into weight training as a teen and progressed into powerlifting, was into various martial arts for 10-11 years, loved soccer and sports generally, computer games etc.). Before I think that definitely played into my masculine identity. Now I guess as much as I recognise those hobbies/interests as still there, I don't see them as a part of a masculine identity, instead they're just "stuff I like to do." It's like as soon as I started recognising the negative impact caring about these things had on me (and here I want to say that I mean for me specifically, not necessarily anyone else), started to understand that masculine/feminine are what you define them as/make of them and that as such it really doesn't matter, that they're nothing but social constructs, I kind of stopped caring.

So I guess to me what masculinity and femininity mean to me now are people's self-identity and the way they move in the world as those identities. I think that's the sexiness of it is just living and being who you are, your own brand of masculine/feminine/both/gender neutral/none of the above/not caring/whatever. Gender is such a source of insecurity for a lot of people because of these expectations and that's how gender turns ugly a lot of the time, so I think it's awesome to see people who really own their gender and wear it/live it how they see it.

But what it means for my identity is that I'm not sure it affects me anymore. Like it's not a concern no matter how people read me, because I've become comfortable in my identity as a transguy and so gender as far as masculinity/femininity doesn't factor into how I feel comfortable with myself anymore.

I'm a little late to the party (being away for a while), and my reaction (when seeing the topic) was to say something like:

"Collectively?  They seem like reasons to keep us from being who we really are and who we should be.  They're societal labels, and even in those moments where someone respectable/admirable has a distinct 'masculine' or 'feminine' flavor that happens to conform to gender norms, it wouldn't work if the person fully lived the role/stereotype.  If we want to understand this world that we're in, we need people to be honest with themselves and with others, and that's not going to happen with compulsory role-play (as opposed to the potentially-awesome type people may engage in at conventions and in their bedrooms)."

"Masculinity" and "femininity" are fickle, though.  People have mentioned that the roles have changed over time, and the distinctions can be so narrow: gossip and rumors may be a "feminine" thing, but in the world of sports, it is fed primarily to men, and it's part of the foundation of the male-dominated political process.  In this respect, their purpose seems less to describe and more to control.

I'm cognizant of these labels, but I have almost no desire to use them, and absolutely no desire out of the "descriptive" use.  I prefer to use language that is more clear and has less baggage.

QuoteMasculine means an emphasis on strength, on being tough enough to handle whatever needs to be handled, being willing to step up when strength, endurance, or courage is needed, without regard to whether your own strength, endurance, or courage might or might not be up to the task. Masculine means protecting, building things that will endure and stand up to whatever punishment they are given, taking responsibility for outcomes regardless of the obstacles.

I totally disagree with this.  I think everything you said about masculine applies to feminine. I have always seen female as the stronger gender.  Maybe not physically stronger but emotionally and mentally stronger.  I think most woman have tremendous courage and endurance.  I think the world will be a better place once men get out of the way. 

When I think of the word masculine two words come to mind - aggressive and crude
When I think of the word feminine I think of the words - beauty, caring, and refined

Within all men and women there are masculine and feminine traits.  So I'm not saying all males are aggressive and crude or all females are caring and refined.  Those are just words that come to first come to mind

Quote from: DrillQuip on December 20, 2012, 07:29:47 PM
I envy those of you whove been able to divorce your personal identities from the social definitions. Personally if society didnt tell me what feminine and masculine were and regulated it id probably be less confused. If only gender roles and such didnt exist i wonder what things would be like...

I think my own views on feminine and masculine are aligned with mainstream american culture i hate to say, and i think battling with that is messing with my self image sometimes. I dont know how you get away from cultural influence to see yourself clearly. Is it even right to use the words feminine and masculine, since those words carry so much stereotype baggage?

I think I can understand where you are coming from. I have tried so hard to distance myself from many things I love just so people won't view me as a 'woman'--- I'd much rather just be a person. It helps to have someone that can understand where you are coming from, and who you can be your true self with. I am able to indulge all my girlish loves when I'm with my partner and it's wonderful.. I've gotten a lot better in public as well.. there is still some anxiety there, though.

I can also understand how the lines can become blurred.. I know I have the most awful problem of analyzing myself sometimes and I can not figure out where I begin and the influences of others end. It is a miserable thing when you can see that in yourself.

Quote from: JulieC. on December 22, 2012, 12:45:10 PM
When I think of the word masculine two words come to mind - aggressive and crude
When I think of the word feminine I think of the words - beauty, caring, and refined

Hmm. So many transsexuals on here seem to have a negative view of masculinity. When I think if the word feminine, I think of the words catty, whiny, and irritable. (Slight ranting about my lack of male friends x.x)

This is a sensitive subject for me because all of my abusers were males. The definition of masculinity to me, personally means someone who is physically and mentally male with personality traits that are overbearing, overly-macho, power alpha, threatening, intimidating, has usually been the jock type who has no emotions or consideration for anyone other than his own thrills, and seeks to devalue and dehumanize others at the expense of the person the male seeks out.

Feminine, to me, means someone of either physical sex and any gender identity who has characteristics of being maternal, caring, loving, level-headed, has an equal balance they are in touch with inside themselves, someone who is secure with who they are, empowers others, encourages others, can sometimes have a mix of tomboy and girly-girl in them, is able to show depth of emotion without needing to hide it or without using it to hurt others, is gentle, kind, is a nurturer, has an innate ability to bring sensible perspective to negative situations. Someone with feminine characteristics is emotionally available, has no problem showing their own vulnerability as matter of simply being who they are in everyday life, and can sometimes be the one who serves to put the fire under someone's feet when needed, is able to set clear and reasonable boundaries in all of their relationships be they business or personal.

Someone with feminine characteristics realizes that neither sex nor gender HAVE to conform to any given stereotype and that people can and should be free to be who they are. Femininity means being able to deconstruct social and other meaningless constructs that place unreasonable restrictions on people in general, and especially as it relates to common misperceptions about how men or women are supposed to look, act, think, etc.

When I was younger, most females I knew were vicious, manipulative, and sometimes misogynists as well. Most males I knew were laid back, friendly, and more tolerant. That wasn't a rule mind you, so I saw my father as feminine. That also may have played a role in why it didn't occur to me that I was male for awhile as well since I was also aggressive which I viewed as feminine.
Then I learn about what the rest of the world thinks "feminine" and "masculine" means and I think they must have gone insane. Then I think I must have the same affliction since I used to associate behaviour like that too (just backwards). Now, I ask questions like "Where does mad scientist fit?" and "How come people put themselves and others into either/or or somewhere in the middle? Why can't people be both?" and I don't know what the answers are yet. What exactly does it mean to be masculine and/or feminine anyway? Honestly, I no longer believe either word works.

Quote from: JulieC. on December 22, 2012, 12:45:10 PM

QuoteMasculine means an emphasis on strength, on being tough enough to handle whatever needs to be handled, being willing to step up when strength, endurance, or courage is needed, without regard to whether your own strength, endurance, or courage might or might not be up to the task. Masculine means protecting, building things that will endure and stand up to whatever punishment they are given, taking responsibility for outcomes regardless of the obstacles.

I totally disagree with this.  I think everything you said about masculine applies to feminine.

It's okay to disagree. But remember the purpose of this thread: Re: What Does Masculininity and Femininity Mean to You Personally?

People are just giving their own perceptions of masculinity and femininity.

"What Does Masculininity and Femininity Mean to You Personally?"

A person can only use what they know.

I grew up as the Beav and my folks were Ward and June Cleaver. The only way my life differed was the TV never had a little sister like I do.

I think of Ward or my father as masculine, and June or my mom as feminine. They were all very cliche.

I spent many years wanting to be dad so much, and here I am basically my mother. I have even essentially told mom, I am the daughter she never had. Ok she does have a daughter, it's a linguistics play on words remember hehe. I am not sure how dad would have reacted to hearing his second son wished to be his first daughter. Mom though has been sterling. I am not in a hurry to seek out my older brother and younger sister's thoughts. Their lives are already complicated, and I am a remote drive for them and we don't see much of each other without a lot of effort. Seeing one of them once in a year is rare. I have daily access to mom now (she moved back to town a year and a bit back after being with brother and sister for 9 years).

I do wish I could be one or the other, but I am married and that is not currently on the table. It is partly by my own decision though. so while it sucks, it at least sucks by my own choice and is not being entirely forced on me. Sort of like being in a job that you took willingly, even if you bitch about it a lot

Quote from: JulieC. on December 22, 2012, 12:45:10 PM
I have always seen female as the stronger gender.  Maybe not physically stronger but emotionally and mentally stronger.  I think most woman have tremendous courage and endurance.  I think the world will be a better place once men get out of the way. 

Well, isn't that a bit harsh?

I don't think either gender is mentally stronger. Women are just allowed to express emotion more. 

As for what I think... I'd rather not say since people might not like it. 

Quote from: DianaP on December 26, 2012, 06:28:40 PM

As for what I think... I'd rather not say since people might not like it. 

People probably won't like what I'd have to say either.  But according to the OP, this is a thread for personal perceptions. Indulge us, hon.

Well, call me old-fashioned, but I think that (for me) femininity means to be loving, nurturing, and supportive, whereas masculinity means to be loving, strong, and providing. I love taking care of men; it makes me feel like a lady. I like for a man to lead when I dance. I pretend my giant teddy bear is a guy who will hold me. I want a man who will be my rock: someone I can cry to and expect to have an answer and make me feel better. I want someone who will  me instead of the other way around.

I think I've made my point. *Hides in bunker* 

For me it has to do with internal perceptions.
As a very young boy I envied girls, although I don't remember why.

When I reached puberty I was vaguely embarrassed by it all, and  envied girls their beauty (I remember being fascinated by makeup, and once got myself made up by a neighborhood girl). Around the age of eighteen, without thinking myself female or giving it much conscious thought, I began dressing up, and looking  for, or so it seems to me now, a glimpse of the girl I inwardly (unconsciously) thought myself to be.

When this unconscious thought first became fully conscious, and accepted, I'm not sure. I believe, however, it was a gradual evolution, and not a sudden epiphany.
But at some point (I was married with children) I began to think of myself as a woman, and this internal perception, which doesn't depend on appearance, mannerisms, body parts  has come to dominate my perception of myself.

I can understand a lot of comments, the thing is, I have a problem specific to me that ruins it all rather effectively.

If you could snap your finger, and poof be quite totally the other gender, ie males becoming females, and females becoming males and not via an operation but magically no longer physically what you were stuck with originally, the question is, how far would you enjoy it? I'm talking about sex here as everything else really doesn't have the baggage. Could you as a female in a male body picture yourself as a female in a female body 'commonly' doing things we all know females commonly do in bed. I'm not going to get descriptive here, we all know what roles/activities males and females often end up with in bed.

My problem is so much of me wishes to be 100% female, and to ditch the portion of me that is male (and I don't think he even cares any more if he gets editted out of reality). Because my disability has stolen from him everything he valued about being male, and has left him as far as HE is concerned living in a woman's world. If not for the fact his male sex organs still function perfectly (perhaps too damned perfectly) he'd almost certainly not appear in my day at all. And yes I know, there is more to being a man that sex, but, have you ever lost everything accept that function?
Additionally, I am stuck with an inescapble, and unfixable truth. I am something of a quite considerable scholar. Yes I know how incredibly arrogant sounding saying one is so utterly entirely educated sounds. I've had to live for 40+ years being several levels of education past all the people around me. ALL the people around me. When they make series or shows or films that have a child prodigy or a person of unusual education levels, they always seem to miss portraying how much it sucks being resented by everyone around that person. Let me tell you, no one frets much over the overly beautiful, or the overly strong quite the way they do when confronted by a person that makes them feel like a mental midget. I've been there, and I know it is true. I am not overly unattractive, and I am not weak or anything. I have been actually called cute in my youth, and I used to deliver furniture. And this is all pre amble to tell you my problem.

I hate men intensely. No I said hate, not dislike, or not prefer I said hate. I have learned too much history, I have learned too much science. I have learned too much religion, and with regards to religion, I have done it from the inside in most cases. Started life as an Anglican, I have been a young adult and mainly 'not interested'. I have been a practicing Mormon ie I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (they prefer the full name over being called Mormon the way a Catholic dislikes being called merely Christian). I am none of that today though. Not even a smidgen. I don't hate any one religion though, I dislike the entire process of being religious. And I will tell you why.

Religion is male dominated, and the world religious groups are all male dominated and the whole process is essentially mysognist to varying levels but always, it is male viewpoint and male pandering, and the only women liking religion and religious beliefs are in most cases merely just self scamming.

And I hate my gender for all of it. I have zero desire to be one. I want to quit this club we call 'man'. I don't wish to be a member. I don't even care what the cost is. Here, you can have my male sex organs, I'd rather have NO way to reach sexual pleasure than be stuck with this 'membership card' stuck between my legs.

Macho is to my mind, just a Spanish word for ->-bleeped-<-. Manly it seems is often just a way of describing behaviour that would annoy a woman.

Why does it have to be Eves fault? Why should it only be females dumped in clothing that covers up a sinful body? Why do men get to preserve their surname? Why do men get all that is given to them? Why do we think it is the female that is weak (discuss how weak females are when you can get a man to endure childbirth). Yes females are a bit shorter on average and a bit less able to lift great weight on average. I've done the Mr Mom life though, and I know what a 20 hour day 7 days a week feels like. No vacations and no sick days.

Sorry for the rant people. But I find it difficult to discuss masculine and feminine. I live in a world where too many manly men get away with too much crap, and a world here too many women have ditched all that makes being female special. I don't want to wear female blue jeans.