Ok I don't wish to offend any of the female to male crowd here (NOT my intent).

But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

But if a man wears a dress, he is immediately either queer, a cross dresser, a freak, all of the above, but sure isn't going to be mistaken for a woman cursed to be in a male form that's for damn sure.

But a woman in female cut pants, is, well, just a woman in female cut pants, as if, well, it's just women's jeans you know and why are those weird?

But pants is a male form of attire no matter how you look at it. And it is just not considered odd for women to wear pants any more.

Dresses and skirts and gowns are female attire and they are not shared with men under any manner.

And it pisses me off.

Ok and I am also jealous of all the men that have found themselves to be stuck in female forms and really, there really is no downside to cutting your hair any way you wish, bald if you wish, zero make up just makes them mistaken as 'natural', and there isn't an article of clothing that will turn an eye. Sure if the person is in a body that is an erection magnet, it might be difficult to be mistaken as a 'guy'. But I'd likely rather be drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly, then basically ruggedly manly and trying to be mistaken as female.

Because 'oh you are a female' is not going to be uttered quite the same as 'oh you are a male' that's for sure.
'Sorry miss we don't allow women in here', is sure not the same as 'Hey you freak, that's for women only'.

Thanks to a neck size that won't fit (if you look at my neck size while I am sitting and my height in not apparent, I go from being short at 5'7" to easy to be thought of as 6'4" and built like a wall on a football line), which does such a great job of ruining most of my desire to even try to picture myself in a wig and something attractive. my neck is greater than most persons waist size.

Thank women's lib. 

Yes, it sucks. Sometimes I wish men's stuff came in more colors. Like glasses and shoes. Always eyeing the pale blue suede in the women's section. It's a shame.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM

Thanks to a neck size that won't fit which does such a great job of ruining most of my desire to even try to picture myself in a wig and something attractive. my neck is greater than most persons waist size.

I know this.... I'm 6 foot with a neck diameter of 17 inches. Most of my shirts are to big for me only because anything that fits properly I can't button up the collar for a tie. I also have a massive amount of Lats, delts and trap (muscle groups... upper back, shoulders and neck respectively) build up from pounding poles by hand and climbing ladders (spent a bit of time in construction).

I also have the classic Homer Simpson look going on from inactivity which isn't helping my minds eye any...

But I do understand where your coming from on the 'what clothing we wear' concept. But then again... depending on the social norm for some women... leaving the house in "scrubs" and no makeup could be viewed as lazy and disrespectful. 


Oh and the more colors thing....

My area has been plagued with "earth tones" for guys clothing... I mean... drab anyone?

Quote from: LivingInGrey on January 03, 2013, 07:45:59 AM


Oh and the more colors thing....

My area has been plagued with "earth tones" for guys clothing... I mean... drab anyone?

Ouch. Thank god we at least have navy blue and red for guys here. 

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

But if a man wears a dress, he is immediately either queer, a cross dresser, a freak, all of the above, but sure isn't going to be mistaken for a woman cursed to be in a male form that's for damn sure.

I hear you, sister.

Though as F.A. points out, used to be true for women as well, but they fought hard for the right to dress as they please, whereas those generations of cis males are perfectly content to continue dressing as they have.

Still, in the end, both FtMs and MtFs face ostracism, censure, and the risk of violence from the narrow-minded, and acceptance and understanding from those who take the trouble to educate themselves.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

It pisses me too.

Currently I'm trying to dress ass androgynous as possible.
And it's a quite big challenge to wear a skirt/dress and not looking too feminine.

I often dress like this
http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453
but yes.. to be able to wear these would be awesome
http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295

Quote from: Dweia on January 03, 2013, 08:07:51 AM
It pisses me too.

Currently I'm trying to dress ass androgynous as possible.
And it's a quite big challenge to wear a skirt/dress and not looking too feminine.

I often dress like this
http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453
but yes.. to be able to wear these would be awesome
http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295

ha... I'm lucky if I can pull off a good Steve Irwin let alone what you consider "androgynous" (what you linked as what you often dress like).

About the only reason I don't yell louder, is, well being stuck in a male form, I have at least not had to deal with the crap that females deal with.

I KNOW it sucks being a female in a female form being consider not equal to a male, and no amount of time seems to have changed that bias even if we supposedly have laws that do. And it must be a real pain to be male and stuck in a massively biased form too.

I mean a guy in a female form, caught out to be a female form, well abusing what society sees as a female gets you in serious crap. Because most males in male form will simply NOT tolerate people beating up what they see as females, even if they are still annoyingly biased males all the same. You won't get far being mean to a perceived female, even if the perceived female wishes to be treated as male.

But there is no sympathy coming to females caught out in male form. No one is going to come to your heroic aid, no outcries of unmanly behaviour for beating up the female in the male form. No one really cares if a 'freak' gets kicked around.

I just measured my current neck size LivingInGrey, 17 eh, must be nice to be so 'small' I have a 20 inch neck size. 21 if I want to be at least not choking when buttoned up. At least an assailant will need to pick a different means of attack though, good luck pretending you will be strangling me to death hehe. I wear T shirts exclusively as buttoning up a shirt means something expensively tailored. I rarely have t shirts buttoned at all as well. I like collars per se, but I am thinking of hunting out female cuts simply as they are more inclined to be more 'open' and might fit nicer.

Heck I am planning to start trying to buy more less manly and more feminine attire in general. I am sick of shorts that scream out 'old man'. I am sick of pants that are so baggy I could make a spare set of female cut legs out of the excess. The trouble is, I have a muscular upper leg mass and a short leg length. And women all seem to wear form fitting pants. I am wondering though if more of an athletic track pant type for woman might be more inclined to accommodate my upper leg while being a bit shorter in length.

My only saving grace, is in high heels, at 5'7" I am still just the height of a woman trying to be a little taller. I feel sad for guys at 6'+ trying to put on heels and not look like some sort of enigma, because even amazons are only so high in heels.

The gut I can get rid of (when I get some discipline and a diet), boobs can be faked, and I really don't need great big boobs (just something to make wearing a bra worth the effort), but I have had the neck since I was small, and it is a trait, not being over weight. I don't think there is anything I can do to change it much. I might be able to get down to an 18 with a serious drop in weight. Heck I had an incredible neck size back when I was a 145 pound teenager. The guys always chuckled how I could manage the hardest setting on the universal gym's neck exerciser as if the thing had no resistance at all.

I dream of being 150 again, of having a waist that can cope with female waist sizes in ordinary stores and being able to have a bust that doesn't just disappear into male pattern beer gut, but the neck will always be a challenge to find the ideal hair style to surround and hide it from view. Trouble is, I like pony tails and similar hair lifted up forms meant to take the hair AWAY from the neck dang it

I am not really in a hurry to buy any clothing that is in your face female (like a skirt) until I muster the needed courage to get a wig and find out if I can even marginally pass as female from the neck up. I think hair style is the main illusion setter. I am so used to everyone wearing jeans, male female, young old. I rarely see dresses and skirts not too frequently.

Boots, now THAT bothers me too. I love the look of female high boots. So many great fashions. I'd love to put on a skirt and something nice for nylons or tights and some great looking boots. But women have small feet. It will cost me a small fortune no doubt to put something nice on my feet. Because it will almost certainly need to be special order.

I have no beef with the cross dressing crowd, I am often quite impressed with their successes.

But, I can't help but wonder, are they trying too hard? Going too far to look too perfect?

My goal is to be standing in line at Tim Horton's ie NOT going to a fancy dinner, and be mistaken as just another female bundled up and waiting for an early morning coffee before work. Even if in truth I am only there to pause a walk with a hot chocolate before walking home.

I want to look like someone's mom, not a hot woman out on a date.

I want to look female, but, so ordinary that no one really looks at all. I'd rather look uninteresting, just not invisible thanks to being in male attire and thus considered just another guy.

I want to have a person standing near to smell my perfume and react with 'she smells nice' instead of 'hmm I smell perfume, but there are no women here'.

No offense taken - at least, not by this member of the FtM crowd.

And I sympathise with you; I've often said that it's one of life's great injustices that it is somewhat acceptable for a female-bodied person to wear traditionally masculine clothing (at least in our societies) but it's rarely or never OK for a male-bodied person to wear traditionally feminine clothing. I also believe it's grossly unfair that I got to be a 'tomboy', but almost nobody gets to be a 'tomgirl'. That's pathetic, it's unnecessary, and it sucks. If I ruled the world... etc.

If I may (and to echo the OP, no offense to MtFs is intended)...  I would like to add the perspective of someone who grew up female-bodied: there is a hell of a lot of downside that occurs, every single day, to women based on their choice of clothing. And most of it comes from other women.

You see, women constantly compare themselves to each other. I was going to say that they expect you to live up to their standards, but that's not quite it. Rather, they dearly hope you won't live up to their standards so they can imagine they are somehow 'better' than you. Wear the 'wrong' clothes, and you're a slut. Or frigid. Or hopelessly out-of-date. Or too poor. Or have no sense of colour co-ordination. Or whatever. Bottom line is: for some reason, society seems to think it has the right to judge women on every little detail of every choice they make.

Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html

Personally, I think things have improved greatly over the last decade or two. Fashion is a lot more androgynous now, which is great for people who aren't comfortable at the extremes. But I do think that, in our society at least, the extremes are dresses (on the one side) and business suits (on the other). Society makes it difficult to be at either extreme if you don't fit the mould.

Also, please bear in mind that it's only very recently (the 1980s) that it became acceptable or normal for women to wear androgynous clothing, thanks to pioneers such as Annie Lennox. I'm old enough to remember when women were expected to wear dresses or skirts/blouses but wouldn't dare wear anything masculine. A woman in trousers was considered to be 'freakish' and could be socially ostracised as recently as the 1970s.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Dresses and skirts and gowns are female attire and they are not shared with men under any manner.

I don't think Scotland got your memo. 

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Ok and I am also jealous of all the men that have found themselves to be stuck in female forms and really, there really is no downside to cutting your hair any way you wish, bald if you wish, zero make up just makes them mistaken as 'natural', and there isn't an article of clothing that will turn an eye. Sure if the person is in a body that is an erection magnet, it might be difficult to be mistaken as a 'guy'. But I'd likely rather be drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly, then basically ruggedly manly and trying to be mistaken as female.

Please, don't feel jealous of us. Yes, my hair is short and I haven't worn make-up for years. I'm drop-dead gorgeous and look much younger than my age. But there's no mistaking the fact that I have two 'X' chromosomes. As you will no doubt discover (if you haven't already done so), women are patronised and condescended on a regular basis. I have to try feeling 'manly' when people verbally pat me on the head wherever I go. Also, FtMs are men and MtFs are women - it's not about trying to be 'mistaken' for something. So instead of 'drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly', my experience is more like 'a man who battles to get anyone to take him seriously because he's shrimpy, looks drop-dead gorgeous and is mistaken as female'. Oh, and here's a great one: whilst presenting as female, try buying a car. Or buying some hardware. Or buying a computer game. Or calling up tech support. (Spoiler alert: they'll talk to you like you're an infant). Take it from me, the FtM grass isn't any greener than the MtF grass. There's nothing to be envied - on either side of the fence.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 08:25:08 AM
Boots, now THAT bothers me too. I love the look of female high boots. So many great fashions. I'd love to put on a skirt and something nice for nylons or tights and some great looking boots. But women have small feet. It will cost me a small fortune no doubt to put something nice on my feet. Because it will almost certainly need to be special order.

I love boots too, but I can't wear them unless I wanted to cross-dress, and my dysphoria makes that impossible. Meanwhile, due to those unfortunate small feet you mentioned, I have to buy boys' shoes because practically nobody makes men's shoes in a UK size 4.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
I don't think Scotland got your memo. 

Having owned and worn a kilt I can assure you there is very little that could be called feminine about it. It's akin to wearing barbed wire with a sign attached reading, 'I'm a dick but don't say it!'.

It was invented in the early 19th century in London as a stereotype Scotch garment. Essentially, based upon a plaid which was the traditional non-military garment all over Europe, especially for poorer people. Scotland, like so many societies went through a silly period of re-invention in the 19th century, hence the adoption of stories such as Walter Scott as apparent historical fact along with contrived notions about kilts and tartans.

Not so very many years ago, women who wore clothes befitting men would have suffered penalties, including being burned on a bonfire as a witch. That must have been a horrible way to die.

Women moved forward, mainly after WW2. Women in trousers was not unknown before then but generally associated with wealthier women wearing particularly 'feminine styles'. Before WW1, it would have been seen as vary daring and indicative of a disinterest in men. I've read reports of women in the American fronteer wearing trousers. Not sure how widespread it was though.

Men haven't moved very much. Self expression is more widespread of course. Especially in recent years, but too much is generally labeled pejoratively as Dandy.

Before the 60s, certainly for most of the 20th century, longer hair for men was almost unknown except for the every scruffy. I recall, in 1964, I was in Washington state and the Beatles were due to arrive in the US. There was a national news paper, I forget which one, published a picture of them to show their long hair. Underneath was the same pictute with bald heads super-imposed to show what they might look like without all that Hair.

If you look at the cover of their album Please Please me, that was the sort of length they had.

Now we have men with pony tails.

But sadly, self expression is still very restricted in clothes.

I have to say, my time wearing a skirt was the most liberating. The reasons may have been several. But I just felt so relaxed, as if I'd made it home.

Was it ever thus. I wrote this in an essay 50 years ago when I was 10.

But there is an upside. When I go out dressed I always wear a skirt or dress. That way there is no doubt about how I wish to be seen.

I'm ftm and I agree with this rant. I also agree that women have seen this as a liberation issue and have worked hard to wear what they want. Men, unfortunately, don't see the idea of dressing femme as a right. It is of course.

--Jay

May i point out way back in histroy men wore heels!

But yea it is unfair however blame for this falls on both how women in the past, were taught a man should be and, how men were taught that girls were inferior to them, thus dressing like them makes you inferior.

Sadly not much we can do on this.
But i say dress how you want and f*** what others think!

Okay, I don't really see many men criticizing women. Here's out it works. Women choose to dress to impress; the guys just don't complain when they do. No one forces a girl to wear a pretty dress or whatnot; they, once again, just don't have a problem when women choose to do so. 

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.



Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought. 

Also, if wearing a skirt means that you are unmanly, then I only have one thing to say to you.... THIS... IS... SPARTA!!!! 

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 04:19:45 PM
Okay, I don't really see many men criticizing women. Here's out it works. Women choose to dress to impress; the guys just don't complain when they do. No one forces a girl to wear a pretty dress or whatnot; they, once again, just don't have a problem when women choose to do so. 

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.



Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought. 

Also, if wearing a skirt means that you are unmanly, then I only have one thing to say to you.... THIS... IS... SPARTA!!!! 

Dont go forget the scots! They even took it a step further. They went who needs undies i got a Kilt! Hell yea gotta love the scots!

Spartans never wore underwear, and neither do I.   

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 04:19:45 PM

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.



Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought. 

Hah Never thought of it that way. Excellent point. 

My dear neice having seen my in a kilt then drew me in skirt, heels and with a handbag - she knows!!!!

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html

Well, if it makes you feel better, I think you're just hanging with the wrong crowd. I read that blog, and I know a lot of men don't act like that.