Quote from: Anna on January 03, 2013, 05:08:18 PM
My dear neice having seen my in a kilt then drew me in skirt, heels and with a handbag - she knows!!!!

They have a tendency to know though. Not a lot of point hiding very much.

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 05:19:37 PM

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html

Well, if it makes you feel better, I think you're just hanging with the wrong crowd. I read that blog, and I know a lot of men don't act like that. 

I agree. I never felt like that as a woman. I think it may be a cultural thing (I notice you're from South Africa?) However, I do agree on the headlines. Women in the public eye are more scrutinized for their looks than men in the same positions. Like Hillary Clinton, for example.

Oh well, definitely. Women are scrutinized for their looks. That's for sure. Men aren't, but they're still scrutinized. I can't tell you how many people have made fun of Justin Bieber because he wasn't "manly" enough. Whatever that means. 

Oh, FA, in case you were talking to me, I'm from South America, not South Africa. (Ecuador, to be specific).

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
Oh well, definitely. Women are scrutinized for their looks. That's for sure. Men aren't, but they're still scrutinized. I can't tell you how many people have made fun of Justin Bieber because he wasn't "manly" enough. Whatever that means. 

Oh, FA, in case you were talking to me, I'm from South America, not South Africa. (Ecuador, to be specific).

Oh no hon. FTMDiaries mentions South Africa in his blog.

This is one of those hotbed issues, but it seems to me the reasons are the way people view others as mating potential or rivals.

Quote from: spacial on January 03, 2013, 06:30:41 PM
This is one of those hotbed issues, but it seems to me the reasons are the way people view others as mating potential or rivals.

That's not an issue so much as a biological fact. There are tons of mating rituals throughout the animal kingdom to prove that one can be a good provider and give rise to good offspring. Humans just have really complicated ones.

Biologically engraved or not, it's still unfair. 

Some very superb replies, thanks to everyone.

But I was really impressed with the reply FTMDiaries gave (that mentioned the blog).

I hit sort of like a revelation. Perhaps I have been mistaking 'old fashioned' as being part of 'him' with my being cliche female, and it being me actually behaving atypical. I find myself often saying to myself 'for god's sake don't you know how you look?' in reply to persons I see.

I totally hate the pants half off the ass look on guys 'What were you never taught to dress?'.
I really hate seeing girls trying to cram too much into too little 'Come on woman, just admit it, you need to shop at the plus sized stores where they make clothes fit your shape properly and you clearly don't have the shape you think you have'.

I am always critiquing people that walk in the store or that I walk past.
The most drastic experience, this young girl (high school age I think) she walks past in a skirt while I was walking with the wife in opposite direction. A burst of wind and 'what the heck? that girl is not wearing panties, I KNOW what a female looks like down there and she was not covering any of it). It kinda shocked me to think a girl would walk around like that.
The wife didn't see the sight.
But I later asked some female friends online of my age, and it was 'oh yeah some days I just don't mind being bare assed under my dress or skirt when out in public'. Not that I have never done something rather bold as hell in the nudity realm, but I generally am alone and quite aware it is not generally acceptable

I guess I am also kind of critical on manner of attire in a female way (which I suppose is both reassuring in a way, as well as revealing something of myself I never likely saw correctly). I DO tend to be very judgemental on how I see persons dressed. And it sure looks like most guys just absolutely couldn't care less. Man it bothers me intensely seeing men 'hitch up their pants' especially when wearing a belt and I want to yell at them 'a belt is not a complicated device, yet you clearly don't know how to use it properly'. I hate guys that clearly need a belt. No mac, I really don't like seeing your ass crack. And I don't like seeing you pull up your pants every single time you stand up due to your pants being incapable of following you when you stand up.

I cringe when I wear the same shirt twice before washing it. I also feel awkward wearing two items of the same colour for fear they think I have not changed them. I hate wearing clothing that doesn't look in decent repair, so the fashion of girls wearing jeans all torn up and full of holes really annoys me.

I do think it is something of a female bashing preference, when women are held under a magnifying glass more so than men. Women are also marketed to on this basis. Men's departments are always small places as men just don't need as much. Heck I find it annoying walking past stores just for women's lingerie (which would never fit me) simply because I consider it unfair they have so much stuff for the tooth picks out there.

Oh my, are your referring to "sagging" when guys wear their pants to their knees? Honestly, I don't like that. I met a kid with an $800 belt, and he was still sagging while wearing it. No, it wasn't a typo. That belt cost eight hundred dollars... and he didn't even use it right.   

In reply to various comments... my blog does mention South Africa, but I haven't lived there since I returned to the UK in 1995, so my comments about the culture were pretty much tied up in British culture.

We are all individuals and I'm not suggesting for a second that everyone thinks the same way, but my blog post was about a pervading culture I see portrayed in the media and everyday life here in the UK. As DianaP said, women are scrutinised for their looks - to the extent that it sometimes seems that their looks are the only thing they have of value. And many women feel intense pressure to make sure they look good enough to be of value - hence the diet industry, the cosmetics industry, the fashion industry, the cosmetic surgery industry... all of which feed off of (and perpetuate) women's insecurities. Which means that despite the very real advances in women's rights over the past century, society still has a heck of a long way to go before we have true equality of the sexes.

Last night I read an article on the Daily Mail's website (which has since been removed!) about a female shop assistant who was (apparently) dismissed from a London fashion store because she didn't look good enough in the dress that is part of the company uniform. It's possible that her attitude was the real reason for her dismissal (she took offense at being told by the fashionista-in-charge that the dress didn't flatter her), but that's besides my point: the readers' comments under the article were vicious. Comment after comment, mostly from women, savagely criticised the young lady for her hairstyle, her facial expression, her choice of clothing, her weight (UK size 12/US size 8 - hardly an elephant!), the shape of her legs, her fashion sense - and they said they didn't blame the manager for firing her if she looked like that. (By the way, there was nothing objectively wrong with any of her features).

Holy cow.

It's unlikely that anyone would fire a man because of how much cellulite he might have on his thighs... so as I said in my blog: why does society think they have a right to scrutinise women so intensely, as if their appearance is the only thing they have of value? Yes, Bieber gets some criticism, but it's never as detailed or intense as what that poor shop assistant faced in yesterday's article.

For me, one of the great benefits of transitioning is that I don't have to subject myself to that intense scrutiny any more. I hated it and it's such a relief to be free from it.

Just a comment before I went FT I started to dress increasingly androgynously - well in female clothes-  the fashion here was  for leggings and sweater tops to above the knee, that is what I wore. I wore feminine shoes, not high heels but feminine. I had my nails done. I have worn ear rings for years. My face had been lasered already.

One day someone commented on my nails saying it was really good to see a guy wearing nail polish, as lots of the pop stars do (I think the Voice was on at the time and Seal wore nails).

I ended telling people I was TG which lead to me going FT. Another story.

What people said was, I didn't realise i just thought you were 'bohemian' and being yourself.

We worry too much.

Wear what you want, be yourself.

Just do it.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
It's unlikely that anyone would fire a man because of how much cellulite he might have on his thighs... so as I said in my blog: why does society think they have a right to scrutinise women so intensely, as if their appearance is the only thing they have of value?

Well, I agree that you'd probably never hear of a guy's thigh fat. However, I see that at least in my generation, the scrutiny of appearance is changing. Yay. 

I can't find any point to disagree with FTMDiaries on this issue.

It's a sad reality that each group represses itself more than others.

Women seem to be more vociferous toward other women. Where another woman's appearance seems to fall short of how they see themselves, (rather than how they actually are!!!).

Men on the other hand seem to attack women who seem beyond their reach or men who they think they can dominate.

To this extent, it kinda reinforces Diana's observations in #25.

But I wonder how much of all of this is part of a need to conform to a group norm? I make that point because it seems so rare, but not unknown, for these people to repeat these things in a one to one conversation.

Quote from: spacial on January 04, 2013, 05:45:36 AM
It's a sad reality that each group represses itself more than others.

Women seem to be more vociferous toward other women. Where another woman's appearance seems to fall short of how they see themselves, (rather than how they actually are!!!).

I entirely agree - and this is something that really surprised me when I was growing up. I grew up in a society where women were just starting to fight for their rights. SA was a very sexist country back in the '70s and '80s so I was there when women's lib was taking off. I was taught that 'sisters are doing it for themselves'.

But I remember seeing news footage of the parts of the world where women are very much second-class citizens, and I used to think "as soon as they hear about women's liberation, they'll all band together to fight for their rights and they'll join us in a more enlightened age". But years passed, and nothing ever changed in those societies. I found this puzzling: surely they'd heard that women can have equal rights to men if they just join forces and demand them? But whenever some woman tried to improve their lot, other women would loudly protest that it's ridiculous (or sinful) to even suggest that women should be equal to men.

Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down. They don't want any other woman to get ideas above her station, because that would mean that the other woman is perceived as 'better', so they make darn sure they knock them down a peg or two whenever they get any bright ideas. I'm sure this is tied in with women comparing themselves to each other to make sure no other woman is in any way 'superior' to them - just like they do when they criticise each other's clothing.

It's heartbreaking to see, and nothing will ever change in these societies until the women's rights movement gains sufficient momentum that the ones who want change start to outnumber the ones who want to maintain the status quo.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 08:33:00 AM
Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down.

I think we're seeing this in the United States as well. Congress is still heavily male, and we've never had a female president or vice president (both houses of congress are 83% male). A lot of the people who consistently vote for males over females are female themselves. Even among females, it seems like males are seen as better leaders. The equal rights amendment (to our constitution) failed decades ago because many women failed to support it.

Some of the recent comments have me thinking a lot now.

Is my behavior because I am more female than even I thought I was?

Is it possible that some males are more female than they realize and that some behavior is the same, but merely targeted differently?

I AM very critical of appearances. Does that make me more the female? Hard to say, because never having been in a female form, I was subjected to so much male dogma, that I have had a lot of crap to throw out too

But I also know, that while a male won't be all over you for fashion offenses, they sure recognize behavioral infractions.
A woman crying during a film is just being a woman, a man crying during a film has just announced he's gay.

God I hate high heels with a passion, yet I want to be able to wear them, but they don't make footwear I could wear at any rate so the matter is moot. Damn things only ruin your feet, all so your ass will look better from a viewing male's perspective, so basically we wear high hells all to satisfy a man's need to see our ass look better at the cost of our feet. Why are women still doing this?
I have been trying to find nice, feminine looking long distance walking friendly women's foot wear and I don't think they even exist. Do women routinely just not wear shoes meant to walk any distance in a skirt? I see women walking long distances, but, it's always in something either a fashion disaster, or foot killing in nature. I don't drive, and never will and I walk with a cane and could really use some nice shoes not designed to make me any more disabled.

I wish I had something to offer a bra. I understand how much women hate being unable to take off their bra. But I suppose most of them are at least grateful when they actually have something to put in one. Flat to a girl is pretty much the same as 2-3 inches long I would guess.
I know this much, I really wish they didn't make men's underwear WITHOUT the fly opening. Come on, I have never seen any need for it. When I actually need to go, it is simpler faster and easier to lower waistband and be done with it. Nothing so irritating than a hot day and your stuff insists on falling through the opening. A bra on a hot day is not the only thing bothering someone. I sure wish it was easier for me to get nicer fitting, better made underwear. But they sure don't have stores dedicated to the male form's under clothing needs. Several packs of cheap schlock underwear in the store is not my idea of great.

I have been thinking of at least fixing the undies situation. I wouldn't need to fret over the wife being annoyed seeing me in it. It is my norm to either be fully dressed at home, or wearing just a shirt at home. I'd be happier wearing something if it at least felt good. Nothing though, is going to make a whole lot of something feel good in the same way that a whole lot of nothing is unlikely to make wearing a bra seem thrilling.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 08:33:00 AM
Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down. They don't want any other woman to get ideas above her station, because that would mean that the other woman is perceived as 'better', so they make darn sure they knock them down a peg or two whenever they get any bright ideas. I'm sure this is tied in with women comparing themselves to each other to make sure no other woman is in any way 'superior' to them - just like they do when they criticise each other's clothing.

This is one of the things I had to come to terms with as well.

In the 70s especially, I was so much in support of a number of movements toward liberation, so to speak.  I recall reading Animal Farm in the 60s and thinking it was a load. The Who sang a song, We Won't get Fooled Again where there was a line, The new boss, same as the old boss. Yet I chose to miss that bit!!

Liberation groups work best when they have a single issue. When they try to work past their sell by date they become more extreme, more ridiculous and even more oppressive than that which they replaced. Feminism is an example. Yet even now, with slogans such as All Men are Rapists and ideas promoting father daughter incest as conventional, not to mention the racial superiority, many remain implacable supporters. That is sad.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 04, 2013, 09:26:19 AM

God I hate high heels with a passion, yet I want to be able to wear them, but they don't make footwear I could wear at any rate so the matter is moot.

This was something which I used to back up. I could understand why single women wanted to make themselves attractive, but why would a married woman?

But then I realised, it isn't about attracting the attentions of men, it's about feeling confident enough to show off to the world that you're here.

It reminds me of something a headmistress once said to me when I was about 10, 'The only time it's acceptable to touch a girl is when you ask her and she says yes'.

Men wait until they are called.

When women don't know that, that is a shame, nay, a tragedy.

I feel things are going backward but maybe it is just the ebb and flow of things. But during the women's liberation movement people were more aware of the "keeping ourselves down" stuff. OTOH, I suppose just a small portion of the population was ever in this to begin with, and it needs time to filter thru the population.

I am still hearing about female newscasters and so on that aren't pretty enough, and I don't think they care so much about males (though I think they are also supposed to be telegenic). Ever see a slightly overweight female weather person, as I don't think I have?

--Jay

Quote from: spacial on January 03, 2013, 05:25:26 PM
They have a tendency to know though. Not a lot of point hiding very much.

Yes but how do they know? How come almost everyone I meet seems to guess this about me except me? I don't think I have said anything consciously to anyone about this since I was 8.

Besides heels & a handbag? That's not my style at all - how rude. I'm a bohemian arty woman of adventure not some 7ft corporate beatch.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
Last night I read an article on the Daily Mail's website (which has since been removed!) ... the readers' comments under the article were vicious.

Erm. It was the Daily Heil. What more needs to be said?

Quote from: Anna on January 04, 2013, 01:25:03 PM
Yes but how do they know? How come almost everyone I meet seems to guess this about me except me? I don't think I have said anything consciously to anyone about this since I was 8.

Besides heels & a handbag? That's not my style at all - how rude. I'm a bohemian arty woman of adventure not some 7ft corporate beatch.

You know something? Enjoy the ride. Don't ask why. All that matters is that you'll be reasonably safe.

I'm content with not being physically attacked. I don't really worry too much about being ignored. I'm a kinda lone type, so that isn't an issue. But all the hiding I've ever done has been out of fear of being hurt.

If you're safe, if I'm safe and others aren't going to be harmed, then, as Cindy puts it, Just Do It.