I'm running into problems with nailing a definition for "androgyne" and/or "genderqueer". The problem lies in the assumption that gender identity directly correlates to stereotypical gender roles. I personally don't think they have anything to do with each other. Even as a girl, I hardly fit the stereotypical gender role, but I still identify as such. Even the boy here isn't a stereotypical male. He likes dressing us. And I let him, because, frankly, He has better taste in women's clothing than I do.

So what do you think? Is gender identity based off of what stereotypical roles you'd rather follow? Or is it a general feeling of identifying with one gender or the other (or both or neither or none, etc.)?

Don't think it's about roles, I think it's about the values those roles represent. There is a definite male (and not purely masculine) and female (not purely feminine) set of values, which are probably socially instilled but do run deep. I think androgyny is partly a way of mixing those values, where being a masculine female is a why of enacting those feminine values in a male way.

but it's possible i am talking bollocks.

Pica Pica isn't talking bollocks!

Genderqueer refers to any individual who does not identify singularly as a man or a woman. More broadly, anyone who is not Cisgender. Androgyne means 'neither male nor female' or 'both male and female'.  Some Androgynes explain their gender identity feels like being a member of both genders, or all possible genders, or being completely outside the gender continuum of masculinity and femininity.

It can be said that 'Androgyne gender identity' is an oxymoron because some Androgynes feel they don't have any gender, but we use the term as needed. Fact is, Androgyne is not exactly a gender in the usual sense, but it is a 'gender identity', and equal to the genders of masculinity and femininity.

Identity means who or what you identify WITH. Men usually see themselves as being like other males, a member of the group called men. Women usually think of themselves as being a member of the group called women. Androgynes, on the other hand, don't identify as being either men or women, or they identify as being both. More often than not, Androgynes can only identify with the definition of Androgyne, and not the example of people in real life.

I agree with Pica Pica. It's not about gender roles for me, far from it. And yes, what I value is a major factor. Androgynes and Neutrois aren't exactly participants in the binary gender system and its culturally assigned roles. I would think many Transsexuals, Bigenderists, and Cisgender individuals may feel otherwise about how gender identity works for them and the value they find in gender roles.

Gender identity is an individual and internal recognition, everyone is delightfully different.

-Emerald

I dont stop with a simplified model of just Identity.
To me things are rather complex and elaborate.
And rules are not concrete, are individualistic, and sometimes made to be broken.
And from the posts in another section showed the variety of differences in the facets of even two that identify as androgyne.

I have seen Androgyne used mainly here in the sense identity, expression,  and sometimes roles or behavior. Other places and a few times here I have heard it refer to anatomy as in intersexed.

To me Gender Identity is just one part of a persons Complex Identity. I think identity is much more than just gender identity.

In addition to being part of a gigantic cluster of identity, I think androgyny and androgynous selves can , or possibly can, influences tons of different areas of a person. Certainly Life doesnt have separate parts, but there have been given names for different processes or functions of a person, which together go together to form a person, or rather the person can be analyzed into different processes and functions, on an individual basis. And I think a person's Identity can influence parts of one's life. I am doing that poll right now to see how far others feel that gender identity, gender roles, and gender expression affects their own lives (and certainly its a subjective poll). https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,14002.0.html

I believe life is complex and blurred, not chopped into nice little pieces, like the words suggest. Thats the problem with words. Life comes first, the words are just processes, descriptions, terms, and concepts. But its the main mode of communication, especially in forums.


Gender Identity
Gender Roles
Gender Behaviors
Gender Expressions
Sexual Biology/Anatomy
Gender Characteristics
Gender Communication styles
Gender Appearance-Clothing, Hair,
Gender Mannerism
Values
Beliefs
Ideals
Hopes
Dreams
Ambitions
Desires
Habits
Preferences
and much much more

Even though, I think these words are just artificial constructs of reality used just to communicate parts of real life. I do think that they are important for communication, which in turn is important.

While Androgyne in this site context can sometimes refers to gender identity, in other context it can with some (like the medical field) refer to biology (intersexed). Also within the realm of this forum is androgyny and androgynous (as opposed to femininity, and masculinity). I think this forum can cover equally the realms of identity, expression, appearance, social interaction, roles, appearance, behavior, beliefs, desires, needs, and preferences, although things are not the same for everyone. Whats important to one person and one definition to another may differ slightly or even greatly.

Having said that, to those that androgynous identity or androgynous anatomy isnt an issue, still is related in the sense of other androgyny (as in between masculinity and feminity), even though it isnt so for everyone. This site and feminist websites are the only places that psycho-social-behavioral androgyny are spotlighted, including gender roles.

I dont believe in anyone being valued or ranked more or less than anyone else because of any real or percieved differences in any self definitions.

My gender btw I do not refer to as just androgyne, rather a subgroup called ambigender. To me Androgyne is a family of unlimited genders, which some non polar genders can be called neutrois (absence of masculinity and feminity), bigender (two separate gender personalities and selves), fluid (moving or sliding gender identity, ambigender (mixing of femininity and masculinty) , third gender (a third separate gender all together), or Undefined (not wanting to be boxed in by any label), but whose vastness is greater than just male or female, masculine or feminine.  I refer to myself as a Transgender (overall gender family) > Androgyne (subgroup) > ambigender (specific group).

But certainly I recognizes also cisgendered persons (male and female).

I am no expert. I dont think there is anyone that can claim being an all knowing expert at definitions, and even so definitions are very relative. My therapist has never said "You are _____." Rather she has asked "Do you feel like _____." and "Maybe have you considered that you might be ____?"

Kendall

It goes way beyond gender roles for me and is even hard to describe in words. As far as male or female, I don't much relate to traditional roles for either. There are a million ways to be female or male or something else entirely. I could say more, but a thunderstorm is getting closer so I'm going to shut down the computer... will continue later.

zythyra