Quote from: Padma on January 05, 2013, 06:35:17 AM
I now consider myself to be polysexual and asexual. By this I mean that I'm attracted to people before I know what their gender is - but I don't want to have sex (even when I'm sexually attracted); I just want romance, intimacy, sensuality, affection.

I've only very recently figured out that I've never been comfortable with sex itself (I was abused by both parents as a child, and that definitely plays a part in this) though I like everything else that goes with it. I'd be very happy with a similarly asexual lover of whatever persuasion or gender.

Both my children are expressing an identification with asexuality that I have to respect, but am still struggling to discuss with them in a way that I can come to understand it. Unless my ex was abusing them after the divorce I have no reason to think this stems directly from abuse. In my FTM son's case I do have to wonder whether some of it is related to his trans identity. So far the younger one, though, is not expressing anything like the gender variance that was present in her brother from a very young age, so I have to think some of this fits with what you are describing...

I personally found it more than annoying that my own physical responses would be interpreted as sexual desire by my partner throughout our relationship. We were together for at least 18 years with a sexual component to it, but how I handled that in my head was probably fairly unique, and involved a lot of what I've described as mental gymnastics to preserve my own sense of femme identity.

Before we met, I did consider and discussed openly with my parents the idea of converting to Catholicism with the aim of entering a celibate lifestyle. I think the fact that I wouldn't have been accepted into a nunnery may have been the main reason I ditched that plan. My mom still jokes about it with me.

I don't think there's one "right" way for coping with all the issues that can affect us when our mind is expecting to see a body that the mirror does not reflect back at us (unless we have a very fertile gift for altering our own perceptions at will). Certainly, many of the stories I've heard from transwomen over the years have something in common with Kelly's description. I know I wasn't totally accepted by all the girls I grew up with, but I was lucky to usually find a core group, usually those involved in music and drama, who were more than willing to hang out with me. It might have had something to do with my willingness to help them alter their dresses, hem things and the fact that most of them assumed I was gay and so were more charmed than threatened by my presence? It did mean there was not a lot that went on between us that was physical or intimate in a sexual way. The only real exception to that was my ex, and our relationship was unique in a lot of ways.

Without going into too much graphic detail, my experience with men was also limited. With the first I was not explicit about my female identity. He was an NCO who out ranked me by at least one grade level, and it was basically a one-night stand, but a long one, that took place in my single-occupancy barracks room. I did have a cute pink sheet set and a quilt my grandmother had made for me... he might have gotten some clues from that, but if he did he didn't say much about it. He was quite an attentive and considerate lover, though, with all the energy of someone athletic and in his mid 20s, and he didn't pressure me to do anything I didn't want to do. I enjoyed giving oral sex. Had no interest great interest in receiving it, but if he did offer it I probably reworked it in my mind to avoid thinking about having a penis. Also enjoyed receiving anal penetration from him immensely, but I was fortunate in that he knew what he was doing, and was not interested in causing me pain or humiliation as part of it. It was one of the things I missed after starting the relationship with my ex, but fascination with her anatomy tended to make up for that a lot, especially in the early years. Concentrating on finding her pleasure and unveiling her orgasmic response was something that took up much of the time and energy in our first months together, and my devotion to that  had the added benefit of making dysphoria and concentration on my genitalia an issue I could avoid for a long time, and when she did choose to concentrate on that, I could often find ways to mentally transform the experience to make it work within my own sense of identity... it also had a taste of fantasy submission and coercion to it, that I found appealing and identity confirming in ways that were a combination of forbidden pleasure and passive surrender to her aggressive side. More than that and this is going to start reading like porno.

I think I'll stop here for now. As someone said, feel free to ask specific questions, here or maybe on my Tumblr account, where I recently enabled the anon asks and am tempted to start describing things in more graphic terms for anyone interested.

Quote from: spacial on January 05, 2013, 01:04:47 PM

I wonder if our need for relationships is an emotional need while sexual interactions are essentially physical?

I'm not so sure there are hard lines between emotional and physical, or emotional and sexual interactions. A relationship can be a lot more intimate than what I've read of some sex acts. But for me, all my sexual experiences have tended to take place over time, with people I already knew in other ways. I can't think of, aside from solo fantasies, anything  sexual that did not have an emotional component to it, at least for me.

The other two questions in this post strike me as a bit too general to answer well. I'm sure that some of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because they spark old  and happier memories, if that's what you mean by "experience." Avoiding boredom, and just wanting to explore new things probably is a partial explanation about how some of them are indirect.

There's a school of couple's therapy called "imago relationship therapy" that is founded largely on the premise that we select our partners to address emotional hurt, damage and issues that often arise from our childhood experiences, and that we create a distorted image of our partners, often as a way of making them fit how we choose to work through those early traumas through our relationships.

I can definitely sympathize with that view, and I really wish my ex had not decided to abandon the relationship at the time when we were just beginning to explore that. That she did so probably said something that she has yet to fully deal with, about where she was coming from, and why she chose someone like me, when just about anyone else would have assumed I was gay and avoided the relationship before it ever got started.  A lot of her issues had to do with how she saw my identity "forcing her" to identify as lesbian, and otherwise feeling pressure to acknowledge things about me that were not necessarily on the top of her own list of priorities. She had a lot of issues she was resistant to exploring in herself, and after trying to draw those out from her for many years, a lot of what I did that added to conflict for her centered on me deciding if she wasn't going to come out and ask for what she wanted, maybe it was finally my turn to be more specific about things I was looking for.

Just for the record: I don't make a causal connexion between abuse and asexuality - I just know that in my own case, it's a contributory factor to me being uncomfortable with sex. I know plenty of people now who identify as asexual, and it feels obvious to me (about me) that I've been conditioned to assume everyone wants sex, including me. As far as I'm concerned at the moment, it's totally optional, but as a culture we're conditioned to think there's something "wrong" with someone who isn't interested in sex, seeing it as just as extreme as someone with sexual compulsion issues. But like with gender and sexual orientation, I believe there's a field of probability, and people vary a great deal in how much they're into or not into sex.

Until recently, I felt I was obliged to want it in order to get love (this is my abuse legacy). More recently, I'd decided I was obliged not to be sexual, because every time I was, it made me and whoever else was involved miserable. But neither of these are actual choices. So I decided to choose to let it go for the moment, at least until after I've properly transitioned and have the right body. And in the space created by me giving myself permission to choose that, my sense of being asexual has emerged.

Yes, sometimes asexuality may stem from bad experiences or fear in general. But there's no reason to assume it isn't just how some people are, and perfectly healthy. And I have no problem with anyone else's level of sexual desire or activity or libido. I just don't want to be pathologised for where mine is.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 05, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
I'm not so sure there are hard lines between emotional and physical, or emotional and sexual interactions. A relationship can be a lot more intimate than what I've read of some sex acts. But for me, all my sexual experiences have tended to take place over time, with people I already knew in other ways. I can't think of, aside from solo fantasies, anything  sexual that did not have an emotional component to it, at least for me.

The other two questions in this post strike me as a bit too general to answer well. I'm sure that some of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because they spark old  and happier memories, if that's what you mean by "experience." Avoiding boredom, and just wanting to explore new things probably is a partial explanation about how some of them are indirect.

There's a school of couple's therapy called "imago relationship therapy" that is founded largely on the premise that we select our partners to address emotional hurt, damage and issues that often arise from our childhood experiences, and that we create a distorted image of our partners, often as a way of making them fit how we choose to work through those early traumas through our relationships.

I can definitely sympathize with that view, and I really wish my ex had not decided to abandon the relationship at the time when we were just beginning to explore that. That she did so probably said something that she has yet to fully deal with, about where she was coming from, and why she chose someone like me, when just about anyone else would have assumed I was gay and avoided the relationship before it ever got started.  A lot of her issues had to do with how she saw my identity "forcing her" to identify as lesbian, and otherwise feeling pressure to acknowledge things about me that were not necessarily on the top of her own list of priorities. She had a lot of issues she was resistant to exploring in herself, and after trying to draw those out from her for many years, a lot of what I did that added to conflict for her centered on me deciding if she wasn't going to come out and ask for what she wanted, maybe it was finally my turn to be more specific about things I was looking for.

Thank you Elspeth and Padma.

I understand the reactive component, but I'm thinking more of the inate. I apologise for not making that clearer.

Personally, I dislike the reactive notion because, it's my experience, personal and with others, that where experience influences us to that extent, it is generally a neurosis. That, as you know is a unhealthy state.

I read a theory of personailty, in the mid 70s, by Eysenck where he suggested that personality, tastes, attractions and so on are essentially genetic.

I've watched a number of mostly nieces, but one nephew, growing from babies to adults. Variety of parents, environments, social back grounds and apart from one severe neurotic, all are esentially, as adults, the persoanlities they were as babies and young children. Modified by maturity, experiences and so on.

I accept that these are unverified observations and will sadly have to remain such. But they have convince me.

Another not uncommon example, is where a girl has relationships and eventually marries a stronger and/or older man. This is often associated with her need for a father figure. But it could equally be her need to emotionally satisfy that aspect of her personality encourages her to seek out these type of adult relationships.

If our personalities and therefore, emotions are genetically pre-determined they the fulfillment we seek from relationships. Regardless of experiences.

Apologies, I've just realised I've turned part of my earlier query on its head. But the point I think remains identical.

Quote from: spacial on January 05, 2013, 03:24:03 PM
Thank you Elspeth and Padma.

I understand the reactive component, but I'm thinking more of the inate. I apologise for not making that clearer.

Personally, I dislike the reactive notion because, it's my experience, personal and with others, that where experience influences us to that extent, it is generally a neurosis. That, as you know is a unhealthy state.

I read a theory of personailty, in the mid 70s, by Eysenck where he suggested that personality, tastes, attractions and so on are essentially genetic.

I've watched a number of mostly nieces, but one nephew, growing from babies to adults. Variety of parents, environments, social back grounds and apart from one severe neurotic, all are esentially, as adults, the persoanlities they were as babies and young children. Modified by maturity, experiences and so on.

I accept that these are unverified observations and will sadly have to remain such. But they have convince me.

Another not uncommon example, is where a girl has relationships and eventually marries a stronger and/or older man. This is often associated with her need for a father figure. But it could equally be her need to emotionally satisfy that aspect of her personality encourages her to seek out these type of adult relationships.

If our personalities and therefore, emotions are genetically pre-determined they the fulfillment we seek from relationships. Regardless of experiences.

Apologies, I've just realised I've turned part of my earlier query on its head. But the point I think remains identical.

We cant trully put all faith in gentics, I mean as you scratched the whole father complex and mother complex issue which occurs in people who didnt have that figure in their lives when they were growing into adults..

Of course we cant say all people will develope one, seeming I never had a father and didnt develope one.

But I mean I have a few friends who date motherly or fatherly figure people because they have the mother/father complexs.

I do rate genetics = 80% of attractions the rest is from exprience or trauma.

Quote from: spacial on January 05, 2013, 03:24:03 PM
Another not uncommon example, is where a girl has relationships and eventually marries a stronger and/or older man. This is often associated with her need for a father figure. But it could equally be her need to emotionally satisfy that aspect of her personality encourages her to seek out these type of adult relationships.

I've been endlessly interested in psych theories, for a long time, but I finally had to give them up for Lent. 

Snarklessly, my two main dating relationships with women were with (a) the smartest or at least one of the top 5 smartest girls in my high school class, who eventually became a psychiatrist, she eventually broke up with me after giving me a book for my birthday that contained an inscription more or less declaring that she thought I was crazy (but in a nice way?) and (b), my now ex, who was an undergrad psych major, but whose summer intership at Bellevue in NYC pretty much ruled out psychiatry as a specialty when she went to med school (we met when she was taking a year off after college, because she had decided to go pre-med late in her college years... something about required courses and MCAT requirements?)

Anyway, to get back to the point of this and your comment I've quoted, is it possible that these relationships happen more because the men are assertive and seek them out, rather than that the girls were actively seeking a father figure? I ask mainly because of something I just posting under what I'm thinking of at the moment...

Part of my question here may have to do with my own relationship with my father. It was not a clearly abusive one, but he did spend a lot of energy trying to turn me into a guy in my early teens, and that made it very hard for me to accept his hugs and claims that he loved me, when he was having such a hard time seeing me on some level. Could have also been that there was that physical aspect to the relationship, and I had a lot of mixed feelings about it, and about being totally open about how I actually felt at the time... this being a time when I was being coerced into boys locker rooms when I felt most definitely like I didn't belong in them, and was a target of harassment that contained no small overtones of sexuality to them.

I've been reworking my old OKCupid account, as it's getting harder and harder to deny after 10 years apart that my ex probably doesn't want me back, even though she hasn't found the dream mate she told me she was looking for after demanding a divorce. As was the case back when that account was last active, most of the IMs that come to me are coming from "straight" daddy types, even at my rather mature age.

Something about me just seems to send out this vibe, I guess, that, even when we don't have much in common, I might be interested in them. Usually, with those who can write at all clearly, there's also a hint that they are looking for a submissive partner in some sense, and I'm fairly sure that's a message I wind up sending even without saying anything specific in that area. I do find it a little strange, but then again, in our culture men do tend to expect they are going to need to make the first move, and for all I know, these notes are something they send to anyone they are the least bit attracted to based on pics.

I know how to make my own pics as presentable as possible, without actually photoshopping Nicole Kidman over my own face. Not likely to be comfortable with that face until I manage to go through the first 12 months or more of HRT, and maybe not ever, which could be part of the reason I get so puzzled by their interest. My Own Worst Enemy and all that?

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 05, 2013, 03:41:05 PM
We cant trully put all faith in gentics, I mean as you scratched the whole father complex and mother complex issue which occurs in people who didnt have that figure in their lives when they were growing into adults..

Of course we cant say all people will develope one, seeming I never had a father and didnt develope one.

But I mean I have a few friends who date motherly or fatherly figure people because they have the mother/father complexs.

I do rate genetics = 80% of attractions the rest is from exprience or trauma.

That's a good point. But even at the highest levels of research and study, I doubt anyone can be absolutely certain. The best any of us can do is build models to work with and stick with those until they are hopelessly flawed or a better one comes along.

Taking genetics as the principal determining factor in behaviour allows me to take others as they are and deal accordingly. On this basis, we each behave acording to the enviromental stimulous and our genetic programming. The only other varients are the rare examples of psychopathy, psychosis and neurosis.

The other extreme is to see behaviour as a function of our experience. This leads to the psuedo freudian notions which so annoyed me in the 60s, such as, Homos being stcuk in the anal phase of development, seeking out male attention to achieve the stimulation they receive from learning to control their bowels.

I do understand your combined theory though. Not sure if I can feel comfortable with it at this time.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 05, 2013, 03:53:13 PM
is it possible that these relationships happen more because the men are assertive and seek them out, rather than that the girls were actively seeking a father figure?

I think that's exactly what it is. Our parents and siblings behave according to their genetic determination as we do. But its not a collection of separate genetic models, its a groups of interacting models.

The same will apply when someone exists within a group with which they have no genetic relationship. I live in such a group now, my wife naturally has close genetic relationships with her family but my relationship is one of behavioural and emotional compatability with one within that group.

If we had had children, they would have been a combination of our individual and very separate genetic makeups. So their interactions with us would have been as geneticly determined as their individual attitudes. Therefore our individual programming is as much a part of theirs as their own.

Familial genetic interaction, if you will

I'm sorry if you don't like psychiatry. I am really hoping to concentrate upon behaviour rather than psychiatry.

Quote from: spacial on January 05, 2013, 05:59:28 PMI'm sorry if you don't like psychiatry. I am really hoping to concentrate upon behaviour rather than psychiatry.

I don't dislike it. I read a lot of it and gained insights from it. But I've also read enough to realize how relatively primitive it is in its present state of development. Possibly comparable to the state of internal medicine before germ theory was widely accepted, meaning that treatment often offered greater risks than avoidance did.

There have been huge shifts in thinking and theories even in the last few years, and immense revisions over the last few decades, especially whenever sex and gender enter the picture. I'll be much happier once the science is actually more science than glorified prejudice and data mining to prove one's preconceived notions, which is what it was for most of the 20th century, in those rare instances when it was following scientific method at all.

It's not there yet, but it is improving as people challenge more and more of the ingrained garbage that's a legacy of some of Freud's early cowardice in facing the realities of intimate abuse, and other things that once were treated as and assumed to be fantasies, rather than getting serious attention and study as demonstrable facts.

It's a huge challenge to turn it into science, when the subject matter bears on so many things we can barely manage to talk about, and often wind up discussing at levels of abstraction that may be practically useless to those affected and seeking treatment or coping strategies.

Mine has definitely shifted over the years, condensed I would say between 12 and 15 or so I had romantic feelings towards females, although physically more jealousy than lust. No romantic attraction towards males but some physically. Fast forward and I have no romantic attraction towards either gender anymore, I just don't, I'm not entirely sure what to put this down to, but if I had to guess I had some lengthy spells of depression where romantic and physical attraction left me. I'm sort of coming out of it now and my physical attraction towards men is stronger than ever, while for females it's almost non existent really.

I'm not really sure whether to identify as gay or bi as a result now, my only sexual experience has been with men and I don't see myself doing anything with a female in the foreseeable future, if at all. As a result of all this some people now know me as gay, others as bi and some even still think I'm straight, well maybe I shouldn't be fretting over labels too much.

By the way reading some of the comments on this thread has been fascinating, even if some of it (well a lot really) went over my head, I wish I could have a stab at analyzing myself with that level of knowledge at my disposal. Better get reading I guess

I was asexual, but now I am wondering if I am now at least romantic asexual. I definitely like the touching now. OTOH, I am still dysphoric.

--Jay

I thought I was gay from my sexual awakening and on through my 30's. In my extremely finite 12 year old wisdom, I thought ALL gay guys wanted to be girls, so I must be gay. Transition never occurred to me as something even remotely possible until just a few years ago.

Anyhoo, I spent my life as a typical closet queen. Skirt ->-bleeped-<- in public and pipe smoker in private. I finally came out to my second wife, which led directly to my second divorce. I moved to the SF Bay a year later to live my life as an openly gay man. That's when things started to really unravel, but long story short, I'm now fully transitioned as of this year, and have been very happily strictly dickly since 2007.

I would prefer s another MTF person. However, it has been several years that thoughts of sex rarely enter a relationship. If sex comes along fine. Friendship and respect are far more important. I do enjoy a female who assits in my dressing and makeup. Going out and about with gender woen is always good.