I know this can never be more than approximate, but of the two electrologists I have seen there is a dramatic difference in the rate of hairs treated.

One was able to do a hair every 4 or 5 seconds, the other takes about 10 to 15 seconds per hair and sometimes longer.

The first says you can do 720 to 900 hairs in an hour, and second would be 240 to 360 hairs per hour. Big difference! But the slower one claims that setting the machine to operate at the faster rate causes many hair follicles to not be fully killed and many will grow back. So the answer about which is better is not so simple.

The faster electrologist was forced to retire for medical reasons, but I am wondering whether I should be looking for someone else who is faster. I asked her to give me an idea how many hours she thought it would take to fully clear my face, and she thought 240 hours was way too little, and more like double that would be required, but it seems like some people have indicated that after 200 to 300 hours they were pretty well cleared. 

I don't have a terribly heavy beard, like middle eastern or something, mostly Scottish and mixed European ancestry, but it is not thin either.

Laser would not be useful for me because a large percentage of my facial hair is white now.

Thanks!

- Heather

Quote from: HthrRsln on January 05, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
The first says you can do 720 to 900 hairs in an hour, and second would be 240 to 360 hairs per hour. Big difference! But the slower one claims that setting the machine to operate at the faster rate causes many hair follicles to not be fully killed and many will grow back. So the answer about which is better is not so simple.

I hope to start soon, once my son is back at his internship. Right now most of my days are being colonized by his appointments and such. I'll try to compare notes once I do get started. Ouch. Someone needs to buy one of my manuscripts or something.

I have heard much the same thing in following past conversations on electrolysis, and the stuff about follicles not dying, or resurrecting themselves does tend to come up. So doing the math, it would  seem that if that's the case, the faster, less permanent approach would be likely to take just as many hours overall as the more painstaking one? I suppose it does depend on what percentage of follicles come back, and how strong. And also on whether hormones and previously zapped follicles come back in a way, after hormones, that is similar to, say, my ex's fairly heavy (for a girl) mustache? She also has fairly feminine sideburns, but very little facial hair in the other telltale areas.

I do recall one video from a lesbian identified transwoman who actually chose to forgo a lot of the facial electrologist that very few of us are willing to forego. Granted, she was also much younger than either of us.

Unless redheads have special powers in this area that I don't know about, sadly, laser was never an option I could consider, even before the color began to fade.

Hi Elspeth,

Quote from: Elspeth on January 05, 2013, 08:09:22 PM

I have heard much the same thing in following past conversations on electrolysis, and the stuff about follicles not dying, or resurrecting themselves does tend to come up..........  I suppose it does depend on what percentage of follicles come back, and how strong. And also on whether hormones and previously zapped follicles come back in a way, after hormones, that is similar to, say, my ex's fairly heavy (for a girl) mustache? She also has fairly feminine sideburns, but very little facial hair in the other telltale areas.

You're pretty near the mark. You will still get regrowth with electrolysis. Hair follicles have about a 3 stage regrowth cycle until they are near the top of the pore and finally give up.

The DC (direct current) and RF (radio frequency) component of the electrolysis machine does create minor scar tissue at the site of the original follicle. This forces regrowth to commence on the side wall of the pore causing a mutated growth to occur. This may occur another once, perhaps twice before scar tissue makes it impossible for regrowth.

Hope you enjoy the experience.

Huggs
Catherine 

Interesting, I had been assuming the regrowth that occurs after a treatment was mainly different follicles which were not growing a visible hair at the time of the last treatment, and that any follicle which is properly zapped with electrolysis should be dead permanently. I had thought that any follicles which do grow back after being zapped must not have been well zapped the first time; for example maybe the needle not inserted far enough to reach the root of the follicle, so just burning the shaft.

If you're right, then it's even more complicated to figure out what treatment is most effective.

Bottom line, I just really want to get it DONE! ASAP! FINIS! I hate having to do this, but I hate having a hairy face WAY more, so I will put up with whatever I have to, just don't want to waste more time than I have to. E3000 sounds better all the time, if it just wasn't so far away...

I guess I also need to investigate topical anesthetic. Today the pain was beginning to get to be a bit much for me. I can tough it out, but I really don't want to have to put up with that.

Topical anesthetics are... well, think well before deciding whether to buy them.

They're really expensive. The one time I bought a tube of Emla, it cost, what, 70 $, for an amount of cream that would only cover my face for one laser session, maybe two.

Also, they're a pain. Emla requires the area to be hermetically shut off with the cream as soon as it's put on, and you have to put it on, I think, about 2 hours before the appointment. Plastic wrap for food does fine on an arm or a leg, but how the heck do you manage that on a face?

And finally, they don't always work as well as you'd think. I tried it on my arm, and followed the instructions as well as I could. Then I used my epilator. Still unbearable.

Regrettably in most cases there are no shortcuts to hair removal. I know several post op women of several years, occasionally have to drop in to their electrolysis and have a freshen up. Facial hair can be just so persistent. This lifestyle didn't come with the wham, bamb, thank you Ma'm option.

And yes if the machine setting are not correct for your hair type, the original site can regrow, albeit somewhat mutated.

About the only fast, but not completely permanent way to go is to dope yourself up on analgesics, have a topical anaesthetic application and book a few 6-8 hour sessions. I'm a woose and only book an hour at a time, but I know of several patients that do the 6-8 hour jobs. They look and feel like zombies when they are finished, but it's effective.

Good luck and I hope it's as painless as possible for you

Huggs
Catherine

I have read about people going to their dentist to get shots of Novocain. That would certainly do the trick, but I am sure it's not cheap, and just the complexity of having to arrange two appointments back to back seems pretty impractical.

Besides, I'm not sure most dentists would accept to inject stuff like that out of nowhere...

If I were you, I'd just take the highest safe dose of Advil, and suffer in silence.

I suppose mileage will vary, but yes, it is very painful. You get kind of, sort of, used to it after a while. My electrologist seems to be pretty quick. At my estimate, she does about 400 hairs in an hour. Assuming a 25% return rate, that's 300 hairs killed in an hour. There are about 30,000 hairs on a typical male face, I believe, which would come out to about 100 hours to clear my face, and that's about what she estimated when I started this process with her.

I can stand about an hour at a time. The upper lip, for me, is the most painful, and I'm usually crying after a couple hairs have been removed there. My electrologist can put a numbing ointment on it, but honestly, I don't feel much difference. I try not to interrupt her while she's doing it, so I just look forward to the hour being over and I can go to Starbucks.

It hurts. All I can say is, just try to tough it out. The process is slow, but effective. I am watching my beard slowly (oh my god so slowly) melt away.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 05, 2013, 10:09:26 PMAnd yes if the machine setting are not correct for your hair type, the original site can regrow, albeit somewhat mutated.

Catherine,

I don't mean to quibble needlessly, but maybe the editor in me just can't help it? Is "mutated" really the word you mean to use here? Stunted, deformed, perhaps? I'm only asking because I'm pretty sure electric current alone doesn't cause true mutations. It can impair cells I'm sure, and lead to migration of cell groups or other stuff that would make the regrown follicles ill-placed or less efficient, so I can understand using the word... it just isn't, unless I'm mistaken, a form of mutation as biologist would use the word.

I'm actually tempted to start in on researching this to see what med lit there might be concerning how electrolysis works at the cellular level, but it's not going to happen tonight, at least. Fascinating info, in any case.

Quote from: HthrRsln on January 05, 2013, 10:23:18 PM
I have read about people going to their dentist to get shots of Novocain. That would certainly do the trick, but I am sure it's not cheap, and just the complexity of having to arrange two appointments back to back seems pretty impractical.

I have a lot of strange drug sensitivities -- part of the reason, I expect, aside from the bargaining done by various "concerned" parties, that I've put off HRT this long. I went through a major shoulder repair with few pain killers after whatever was given during the surgery itself wore off, so I expect I'll probably avoid it here as well. Then again, considering stories I've heard, maybe I'll wish that I'd filled that Vicodin script they wrote for me, that I never filled, before getting the shoulder fixed?

Quote from: Elspeth on January 06, 2013, 12:35:35 AM
..........  Is "mutated" really the word you mean to use here? Stunted, deformed, perhaps? I'm only asking because I'm pretty sure electric current alone doesn't cause true mutations. It can impair cells I'm sure, and lead to migration of cell groups or other stuff that would make the regrown follicles ill-placed or less efficient, so I can understand using the word... it just isn't, unless I'm mistaken, a form of mutation as biologist would use the word.

I'm actually tempted to start in on researching this to see what med lit there might be concerning how electrolysis works at the cellular level, but it's not going to happen tonight, at least. Fascinating info, in any case.

Hi Elspeth,
If it wasn't for the RF component of electrolysis I would agree with you whole heartedly. Can I also encourage you to research this topic, as I welcome other perspectives and understandings.

The frequency of the electrolysis from memory is in the upper UHF band round 390MHz. Although I believe this can vary depending on manufacturer. Some retail devices are limited by the FDA to the 27 MHz band.

The RF component along with the DC provides an adequate (although that is patient dependant due to skin, skin oil, and other electrolytes present in the pore/follicle/dermis) coagulation of the hair follicle.

However it's at this point which represents the commencement of the regrowth phase after resting, that I'm not entirely sure the regrowth follicle has been marginally effected enough to be classified as mutated, by the RF. Which leaves adequate room for your description of  stunted or deformed to be a more reputable and accurate description.

Thank you for perspective on the matter.

Huggs
Catherine

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 05, 2013, 10:09:26 PM
Regrettably in most cases there are no shortcuts to hair removal. I know several post op women of several years, occasionally have to drop in to their electrolysis and have a freshen up. Facial hair can be just so persistent. This lifestyle didn't come with the wham, bamb, thank you Ma'm option.

And yes if the machine setting are not correct for your hair type, the original site can regrow, albeit somewhat mutated.

I finished my electrolysis about 16 years ago.  I never had need for FFS or anything like that, but did require a few years of hair removal.  Bad memories are flooding back now     I know there was most likely some regrowth, albeit finer and finer each time.  But after 2 1/2 years of treatment (longer and longer between each treatment), I can say I've never had to go back since. 

After each session I had a special skin coloured cream to put on.  This was to hide the redness and to sooth the pain. 

Oh the pain, the pain 

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 06, 2013, 03:33:00 AM
Hi Elspeth,
If it wasn't for the RF component of electrolysis I would agree with you whole heartedly. Can I also encourage you to research this topic, as I welcome other perspectives and understandings. ...

I'm not entirely sure the regrowth follicle has been marginally effected enough to be classified as mutated, by the RF.

Huggs
Catherine

I have some radio engineering background. I believe RF is classified as "non-ionizing radiation" which is not considered capable of mutation. RF can be used to heat (cook) tissue, and that came be hazardous in large exposures. The FCC radio engineering exams covers this in some detail.

Quote from: HthrRsln on January 05, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
I know this can never be more than approximate, but of the two electrologists I have seen there is a dramatic difference in the rate of hairs treated.

One was able to do a hair every 4 or 5 seconds, the other takes about 10 to 15 seconds per hair and sometimes longer.

- Heather

Hi Heather, let me ask you this. When you go to the electrologist that takes 10-15 seconds, are you holding some kind of probe in your hand? A metal probe covered in salt water or touching something during treatments?

This brought back some memories to me. Whnen I started off doing my face I used flash, which is very quick. The idea was to get to an initial clearing. Once a lot of the  obvious hairs were out of the way, I switched over to blend to do everything and blend is much slower about 10 seconds per hair, but it's very effective. I am guessing from my own experience that with blend 90% of the follicles treated were dead on first treatment and never came back. When I did blend, I needed to hold a metal probe in my hand that was covered in a paper treated with salt water.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on January 06, 2013, 07:39:31 AM
Hi Heather, let me ask you this. When you go to the electrologist that takes 10-15 seconds, are you holding some kind of probe in your hand? A metal probe covered in salt water or touching something during treatments?

Yes, both electrologists I have seen gave me a grounding piece to hold, and I have used a wet towel for better conductivity. Both electrologists said they were using the "blend" method.

Lots of people can't get past the hairs treated per minute thing but this isn't always a good indicator of how quickly you're going to be finished, kill rate is what matters. Everyone wants value for money but don't be blinded by hairs per minute. Blend is going to be slower than thermolysis (flash) per hair. Not all machines can be used to perform flash and practitioners who don't have machines that are capable of doing it properly will diss this method. As a result it has a less than favourable reputation which isn't deserved.

With thermolysis (flash) follicles can be treated in fractions of a second rather than a few seconds. Usually with most hairs, specifically beard hairs more than one pulse will be needed to disable a follicle first time. This can be done but it isn't always the case with every follicle certainly not with beard hairs, they are bitchin!. If a practitioner is telling you that every hair will require more than one treatment find somewhere else. If they are telling you hairs can only be treated in anagen find somewhere else. If you can feel plucking when a hair is removed once the follicle has been treated find somewhere else. You may feel the odd pluck once in a while but you shouldn't feel many. You may feel some gentle tugging but this should only be when a hair is being tested to see that it has been treated properly. If a hair doesn't slide out of the follicle without resistance it has been treated properly. When I tweeze a hair after it has been zapped I am initially testing it to make sure it has been adequately zapped and in the same movement assuming it has been I will lift it away. If it still feels attached I will hit it again. In some instances it still won't release. You'll hear excuses for this such as distorted, curved, even corkscrew but the bottom line is the follicle has been missed if only by a tiny margin. It happens, electrologists are only human and as such we are not perfect in every insertion. No surprises when you think about and understand what it is that we are trying to do...

In my own experience thermolysis is way more comfortable than blend. Each pulse will generally be around .1 of a second and not more than .26 even in an area like the chin where hairs are tough! Each pulse is controlled in intensity and time by micro processors so each pulse is exact. You CANNOT do flash by randomly dabbing the pedal and hoping you don't release too much energy, it's a recipe for disaster. Some unscrupulous poorly informed irresponsible practitioners still do this and think they are doing it properly, steer well clear of these people if you value your skin....

Injectable anaesthesia does make the experience easier but with a good machine and operator it should only really be necessary under the nose. This is the beauty of a modern machine, it will greatly reduce sensation, allowing for longer appointments and ultimately as a result a shorter time to completion. Something else injectables do make possible is a quicker way of working. Ordinarily it is sensible to treat just one or two, sometimes three follicles (on the face) before the hairs are removed. This gives very short little breaks between each follicle and makes treatment more tolerable. With injectable you can treat a greater number of follicles before you remove the hairs, this speeds things up assuming that the follicles are being treated properly. It will be difficult to  for you to assess your treatment under the influence of a local so make sure they know what they are doing before you commit to a lot of appointments, perhaps ask to watch using a small mirror. This shouldn't be a problem for the person doing the work depending on area and it will allow for to make sure they aren't plucking. Plucking isn't electrolysis in any degree, it's simply separating you from your money under false pretences....

It's not the scar tissue that stops further growth. Growth will be prevented by destroying the follicle itself and the cells within it that work together to produce a hair. It's not just about destroying the root and it's blood supply, if only! There exist within the follicle cells that will repair it and allow it to produce another hair and unless follicle destruction is complete this is what will happen. If a follicle is only being targeted at it's base you can pretty well guarantee another hair will emerge. This is why with flash more than one pulse will normally be required to ensure a thorough treatment of every follicle. Blend is different because it works in a different way, it's a chemical reaction with a degree of warming to make it more effective, Flash is just heat. The heat isn't the result of the needle getting hot, avoid anyone who thinks this is the case because they don't know what they are talking about. The heat is generated as a result of the atoms in the moisture in the follicle becoming excited and this is what generates the heat.

Even to this day arguments abound between electrologists, specifically about what happens within a follicle and it's structure and the best way to kill one. Loads of them still think it's an open pocket in the skin with the hair only attached by it's root, this is Way off. Doctors aren't the best people to consult about electrolysis, come to that some electrologists aren't the best people to consult either. It's a nightmare finding someone who knows their stuff and is good at what their job description suggests that they do "permanent hair removal" Beauty salons aren't the best places to go for this service. you'll hear things like "I've got 20 years experience" break this down though and this can equate to 15 minutes every other day, sometimes less, once a week, often less, sometimes more treating vellus hair or the odd hair on someones nipple or chin. The rest of the time they'll be doing nails, facials or worse still waxing or threading which in some cases on the face will make the hairs more prominent and stronger over time... Find someone who's familiar with treating male beard hairs and ideally go on recommendation from someone who's either finished or well on their way to being so.

Flash is just as effective as blend when done properly. Electrologists without the capability, knowledge or machine will not share this information with you, why would they... I spent a large amount of money on a machine that is capable of doing all modes of electrolysis but I don't use the blend modes or the galvanic, they are almost surplus to requirement. I had to pay for them to be included on the machine because without doing so I wouldn't have been able to get a machine that is capable of the advanced modes of flash.

A hair is merely the fruit of a follicle. Obviously it's the thing we're trying to get rid of but this is best done by focusing on and understanding the follicle, what it is, how it works and how to destroy one.

Some good information here: pulse-electrolysis.co.uk

Two recommendations for electrologists here in this thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,130837.msg1057430.html#msg1057430

Good luck with treatment 

The kill rate is the most important aspect to look at. Speed is pretty meaningless, if most of the hair grows back. Blend electrolysis has been the most effective with the highest kill rate for me. It has also been documented that blend has a higher kill rate than the other modalities (thermolysis, flash-thermolysis, and galvanic). Find someone with a blend epilator that has a good number of years of experience treating MTF patients, and good luck.

Lots of things have been documented in the past that later turned out to be wrong or somewhat adrift. A higher % of electrologists use blend before either of the other modalities but this balance is slowly shifting and so is the thinking that goes with it. The loudest voice you're going to hear is the one shouting blend! but blend isn't necessarily best. Flash is way more comfortable and just as effective when performed properly with a modern machine....

If you trust an electrologist their skill and knowledge should be your guiding light. Any thing usually said here is an opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you trust your electrologist and yourself you outcome can be nothing less than great.