I'm in a state that is currently debating whether or not to legalize same-sex marriage. Can I actually be against same-sex marriage, cause I kinda think I am? I mean I feel bad about that fact, but I believe that marriage, as a religious part of my faith, is only between a man and a woman. (I myself am a lesbian and do dream of getting married to another girl with both of us in beautiful white dresses, but I understand it wouldn't be a real marriage, and I'm ok with that.) Just wanted to see what other people on here think. Please don't hate, but feel free to expand my perception! 

I understand though that the keyword in that above paragraph I wrote is "part of my faith." Not everybody is of the same faith and therefore it would be wrong for the government to limit marriage to specific criteria. However, the current argument against same-sex marriage that I sorta believe in is that if the law in my state is passed redefining marriage, those who hold onto the traditional idea of marriage will be seen as bigots and haters--as I pry am being seen right now!

Well I'm guessing you're in Illinois as am I, and our state senate is with in a few weeks going to "hopefully" pass a right to marry bill.  Now, I am all for same sex marriage, I believe that two people who are willing to dedicate their lives to each other should not be unjustly denied the same rights as a mixed gender couple.  That being said I have no reservations about churches and others religious groups not willing to marry a same sex couple.   That is part of their freedom of religion, but i do believe that the state and federal government should recognize same sex marriages due to the people's right to have a separation between the church and state.

Just to throw this out there, but a marriage is a contractual agreement between two people.  It really has nothing to do with religion.  You get a license from the state and then go before a duly appointed representative for the state to formally have the license approved.

Now if your representative happens to be your rabbi, minister or priest, then the license approval is part of a religious ceremony.  But a marriage is not a religious right only.  My ex and I were married in Reno, NV in one of those marriage chapels.  It was not sanctioned by any church, only by the state of Nevada.

I am for same-sex marriage.  How can a marriage formed out of love be wrong?

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on January 07, 2013, 06:48:25 PM
Just to throw this out there, but a marriage is a contractual agreement between two people.  It really has nothing to do with religion.  You get a license from the state and then go before a duly appointed representative for the state to formally have the license approved.

Now if your representative happens to be your rabbi, minister or priest, then the license approval is part of a religious ceremony.  But a marriage is not a religious right only.  My ex and I were married in Reno, NV in one of those marriage chapels.  It was not sanctioned by any church, only by the state of Nevada.

I am for same-sex marriage.  How can a marriage formed out of love be wrong?

Mrs. OBrien beat me to it.

You can get married in a court of law with no religious backing or influence (athiests, anyone?) [you get your actual marriage license from the government].  Once you obtain that license, then you can get married in the eyes of a religion if you want, but it isn't a requirement to be legally married. 

I am personally for marriage equality.  You can keep your religion, but let me have my legal-based marriage [not like my religion discriminates; you can marry a same sex partner in it].

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
I sorta believe in is that if the law in my state is passed redefining marriage, those who hold onto the traditional idea of marriage will be seen as bigots and haters--as I pry am being seen right now!

Well, what would be the appropriate name for someone who says "I'm going to get married to my lover but I ain't gonna let you get married to your lover because my majority is more powerful than your minority and we can make a law against it"?

I'm all for same sex marriages, or any marriage between two people that love each other.

The state is the agency that allows marriage.

A Deity may indicate approval or not, but that would be a matter between the couple and Him/Her/It, whenever they chance to meet each other. The Deity's approval  may be concerned with the genders of  the couple, or whether a turtledove was sacrificed, or if an offering was left in the plate...but if He/She/It has a problem, then let the Deity take care of it.

It's not your responsibility to make people abide by your G-ds' laws. (not saying this in a snarky manner, just making an observation).

I can understand that some people don't like some things, but I don't quite understand why they feel they can impose their views onto others.

After all, it's not as having marriage equality won't change marriage between men and women, one iota.

My pastor is a lesbian and they have a blessed civil union, and also adopted a son. Remember the bible was written by a culture with a patriarchal system, it always referred to the male 1st and that is the way it was written. But I don't think that God would make someone a certain way to be naturally attracted to someone, and then tell them they can't do it.

I found this website here to be very helpful (ran by the mcc church)

http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/romans_1_21.html

I actually go to a UCC Church and they have a ministry there

http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/

You should take some time to allow yourself to feel ok about yourself. Trust me it is not easy though, i was pretty much a fundamental Conservative Christian just 9 months ago now. I have many more links that might help you work it all out. Send me a PM and i will help you.


Also here is some more food for thought, who is an intersex person supposed to date according to the church? If they feel male inside or female inside but have a mixed body? Some churches would say they should pick a gender and then pick the opposite sex.

Nobody asked to be born straight,gay,bisexual,trans or intersex, but we are what we are and you should not feel guilty. Marriage is just a more formal and legal version of a civil union, that comes with more blessings and benefits. So why should you feel bad?

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
(I myself am a lesbian and do dream of getting married to another girl with both of us in beautiful white dresses, but I understand it wouldn't be a real marriage, and I'm ok with that.)

Mind blown. I don't even know what to say to this.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
I'm in a state that is currently debating whether or not to legalize same-sex marriage. Can I actually be against same-sex marriage, cause I kinda think I am? I mean I feel bad about that fact, but I believe that marriage, as a religious part of my faith, is only between a man and a woman.

I think this is one of the main areas of common confusion that turns this into a political wedge issue, unnecessarily.

Freedom-of-religion/First Amendment principles almost certainly guarantee, as long as the Constitution stands (speaking of the US here specifically) that religions will not be compelled, and cannot be compelled to perform same-sex marriages.

However, different religions have very different notions about religion, and the existence of civil marriages that, by the same principle, cannot be based on a specific "establishment of religion" -- plus some of the other constitutional issues surrounding this also practically guarantee that same-sex marriages (which you're welcome to consider "unions" or just not marriages according to your own religion) are almost inevitable as well, mainly because of the interstate commerce clause.

I can understand the fear that the state might dictate your religion's practices, but essentially, to do so would represent a huge constitutional problem, so it's barely worth worrying about. You'd basically need a new constitution for that to happen.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on January 07, 2013, 06:48:25 PM
Just to throw this out there, but a marriage is a contractual agreement between two people.  It really has nothing to do with religion.  You get a license from the state and then go before a duly appointed representative for the state to formally have the license approved.

Now if your representative happens to be your rabbi, minister or priest, then the license approval is part of a religious ceremony.  But a marriage is not a religious right only.  My ex and I were married in Reno, NV in one of those marriage chapels.  It was not sanctioned by any church, only by the state of Nevada.

I am for same-sex marriage.  How can a marriage formed out of love be wrong?

Agreed. I'm a Pastor and I am all for same sex marriage. There is no where in the Bible that states marriage is only between a man and a woman.

Also, same sex marriages occured in Christianity, led by Christian priests for Christian people since Christianity became the state religion of Rome until Charlemagne's successor in the Holy Roman Empire 500 years later.

And something to think about: the same book in the Bible that you are getting the idea that same sex is wrong also stated wearing clothing of the opposite gender is also wrong.

However,

That same book also forbids physically handicapped people from entering into churches and eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination

This is the main reason why I stayed a pastor even after I came out. My ministry is to show people that Christianity does not HAVE to be narrow minded, prejudiced, and racist and that it is NOT a sin to love someone.

I am all for same-sex marriage.  A lot of the people here have made interesting points. If two people love each other, then they have every right to get married.  In a "traditional marriage" a long time ago in certain places, it was considered wrong for people of different races to be married together. Traditional does not always mean the best.

One thing I would like to add though is the economical plus of allowing same-sex marriages.  This could increase jobs for caterers, wedding planners, cooks, preachers, divorce lawyers etc. and put more of thm to work.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
I understand though that the keyword in that above paragraph I wrote is "part of my faith."

I think we belabored the point of civil unions not being religious marriages.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
but I understand it wouldn't be a real marriage, and I'm ok with that.)

Definitions can change. Here are some that did.

-African Americans used to be considered 3/5 of a person. Now the USA has a black president, who was re-elected no less.
-Non-whites used to be viewed as people to colonize and as inferior. Now, Japan, India, and China are among global powerhouses.
-In WWII, Japanese-American citizens were put in internment camps since they were viewed as a liability. They were later released. That's some pretty fast change: potential traitors to welcome citizens.
-In WWI//WWII, Germans were ostracized by people in the US. Now, Americans don't have a huge problem with Germans.
-Ecuadorians used to hate Spain. Now, people don't care one way or the other.

I think I made my point.

Quote from: Hippolover25 on January 07, 2013, 06:25:51 PM
(I myself am a lesbian and do dream of getting married to another girl with both of us in beautiful white dresses, but I understand it wouldn't be a real marriage, and I'm ok with that.)

Just... what the fudgeberries??? 

Civil marriage is legally recognized by the state and federal government.   Personally I believe that any two consenting adults have the right to a civil marriage.    This is not based upon my religious belief.   This is just a matter of each individual legal  civil right.    I believe that each individual within the context of their religious Faith has to decide if they could marry someone of their own gender or not.     I will not get into my own moral struggle with this issue because I feel that is a private struggle between me and God.   How I personally deal with it has nothing to do with other people's struggle and what is legal according to civil law.     Those individuals who wish to get married can and those who have problems marrying someone of their own gender don't have to.

As a transgender female I am not even sure legally who would be a member of my same sex or gender.      At 66 years old I am not sure that I see the point of marriage and how I would work it out within my religious Faith, which may not even be possible, but that is my problem and not anyone else's and that is for me to work out for myself.    I have a lot of other moral struggles which my Faith guides me through.   I am personally responsible for all of the misadventures in my life.    As is everyone else for their lives.

I have said this before in other threads. The ridiculous part of banning same sex marriage is typified by my situation. In Australia same sex marriage is illegal, at the moment. I've been married for 30 years. When I get SRS I am recognized as female sex.  To be so recognized I have to divorce my wife, since same sex marriage is illegal.

What has changed in my 30 odd years of marriage? Nothing.

When someone can provide a definition of 'man' and 'woman' that anyone here can't shoot full of holes, then the whole idea will have some relevance to what passes for reality.

Quote from: justmeinoz on January 08, 2013, 05:31:31 AM
When someone can provide a definition of 'man' and 'woman' that anyone here can't shoot full of holes, then the whole idea will have some relevance to what passes for reality.

Exactly!!!!

Whether I am heterosexual, or homosexual has absolutely no meaning to a trans person because the definition is based on *someone else's* pre-conceived notion of gender!

Am I a woman or man?  Who gets to say?

No one in the anti-ssm group can answer that question without their heads exploding.  Fun to watch, but a mess to clean up... 

-Sandy

Quote from: Sandy on January 08, 2013, 05:55:08 AM
No one in the anti-ssm group can answer that question without their heads exploding.  Fun to watch, but a mess to clean up... 

Indeed! I'm not bringing my cleaning supplies.

Quote from: natastic on January 07, 2013, 08:08:42 PM
Mind blown. I don't even know what to say to this.

Couldn't of said it better myself. Look only people who follow outdated religious rules made in a time of male dominance and complete oppression would try to still oppress and force others to follow their opinions.

Why claim equality yet still oppress people for trying to be happy?