Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
I think Alex about said it all quite perfectly above. Just take your time Joey and don't let anyone pressure you. Just tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.

Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?

A mutations on the promoter of the gene that codes for the aromatase enzyme (an enzymes that turn testosterone into estrogen which in turn is a must for the xy-male brain to masculinize) has been shown in MTF, and thus perhaps showing that least genetics may be play a role in the etiology of GID

While I do want bottom surgery quite badly, I understand why you don't feel it's necessary for your transition. Some people do not feel comfortable with the current procedures, and that's reasonable.

It's honestly not your dad's place to say what's best for your transition. If you're comfortable with having top surgery, but not interested in the options available for bottom surgery, that's fine. It's your body, not your father's. It's not his business what surgeries you may or may not have in order to feel more comfortable with yourself. I'd avoid talking to him about it at this point, as it may just result in more fighting.

Elspeth - I'm actually going to argue that a surgically constructed penis can be taken for a biological one with proper healing and time allowed.. Many photos that are shared online are phallos from early healing stages, so they might look "off" or different. Cis men also use sleeves and pumps for erectile dysfunction, and there are many cis men with micro penises or genitals that are just smaller than the norm. They may also need surgical reconstruction via phalloplasty.

Just because you don't look at a dick and say OMGFAKE doesn't mean you're naive or ignorant about body parts or sex, and I think saying as such is kind of offensive.

Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
I think Alex about said it all quite perfectly above. Just take your time Joey and don't let anyone pressure you. Just tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.

Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?

Not trying to hijack a thread, but I think it's entirely plausible. For example, I know there are many personality disorders that are inherited genetically, it just makes sense that other chemical imbalances/disorders could be transferable through genes. We have a plethora of them in our family, from schizoid to bipolar to straight out schizophrenia. I inherited the schizoid from my father, and my cousins on his side are a bit... different. *ahem* And barring genetics, any wonky stuff in the womb can drastically alter the fetus. My buddy's mom took a pregnancy drug that was still in testing, and it completely altered his appearance (and lifespan ). So yeah, genetics can play a huge role I'm sure. Ya know, they say there's one in every family, and if you don't have one in yours, it's probably you

Quote from: Zerro on January 09, 2013, 10:07:03 PM
Elspeth - I'm actually going to argue that a surgically constructed penis can be taken for a biological one with proper healing and time allowed.. Many photos that are shared online are phallos from early healing stages, so they might look "off" or different. Cis men also use sleeves and pumps for erectile dysfunction, and there are many cis men with micro penises or genitals that are just smaller than the norm. They may also need surgical reconstruction via phalloplasty.

True. The last guy to get me to have sex with him had a pretty weird looking one -- fairly certain he's a cismale, as I've known him for close to 20 years and know his wife and children and there is very little doubt to me that his boys are his sons and no one elses. Also, no... you can probably figure out the other reason I'm pretty sure that despite its cosmetic anomalies, I'm just about certain he was born with it.

I'm being catty. It's late. And I still won't forgive him for freezing up on me after flirting for over a year to get me into bed. I have the worst luck with guys, but most of that is probably because I refuse to make it with anyone who doesn't try really, really hard to come onto me.

As for the question of genetics, my case and that of my trans son certainly raises some interesting questions.

For some time I allowed myself to consider some of the environmentally-based theories that were common about the nature of transsexual identities and gender dysphoria. I do have some nagging concerns about the possibility that something else could be going on with me, but a lot of those make even less sense now, since my son came out.

Particularly those that my gay therapist tried to sell me, and that I even volunteered, about being raised in a homophobic, repressive culture. One, the stories were not a perfect fit in that my parents were never as homophobic as my therapist wanted to believe, and my son was dating girls (as a girl) from age 15 onwards, and took 2 different girls to junior and senior prom with the blessings of both me and my ex.

When my ex and I discussed my son's second gender therapist session on my return, in fact, my ex was quite specific about how so much of her concern about his (to her) rapid shift to identifying as a transman (which I don't see as nearly as rapid) has to do with the fact that her friends and peers can deal quite fine with the fact that her child is lesbian, and not so well with a trans identity, though she hopes that level of acceptance will improve over time. If this were being done for external approval, identifying as lesbian would have been the easier choice.

Anyway, there is growing evidence that trans identities (at least those that are strong enough to lead people to seek transition) do have a physical basis, mainly in the brain.  I only recently updated myself on this, and most of the research is fairly recent, only one study goes back to 1995, the rest have come out in the last decade.

Whether that is purely genetic or a combination of other factors remains an open question.

Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
He said that if I wanted to be a boy that bad then I'd get it, no matter what the risks are.

Even though I want bottom surgery, but I think your father, being a cis male (I'm assuming) he especially has no room to talk.  It's your journey, not his.  The best thing to do is to agree to disagree. 

As far as being transgender being a genetic thing, I think it is highly possible. When my mother had her first two daughters by another man, the worst trait they got was eczema.  However, when she had my brother and me with our day, my brother has autism and high blood pressure and I'm borderline for the latter so I wouldn't be surprised if he gave me the "transgender gene" for lack of better words.

I'm a bit of an ass so I probably would have said with enthusiasm, "Sure, Dad, I want the whole package," just to get his reaction.
Because of the previously stated reasons by others, I also am choosing just top surgery.

Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
My question is, how many of you have top surgery without bottom surgery and how many of you know you don't want bottom surgery in the future?
Joey

I've had top, no bottom. I know I won't be having bottom in the future no matter what breakthroughs are made. Just not interested. The thought of a scalpel down there... yeah, not having it.

Quote from: Jeatyn on January 09, 2013, 04:56:29 PM
It is my understanding that actually a very large proportion of trans men choose not to get bottom surgery for a variety of reasons. So basically your dad is talking out his ass and just looking for any reason to stay in denial about you.

I don't plan on ever getting lower surgery but top surgery is an absolute 100% necessity.  A man is not defined by his genitals.

thread over

Quote from: Malachite on January 09, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
Even though I want bottom surgery, but I think your father, being a cis male (I'm assuming) he especially has no room to talk.  It's your journey, not his.  The best thing to do is to agree to disagree.

Given your experience with him, and the direction he's taking his counterargument, you may want to hold off on assuming he's cismale. Not saying he is trans, given how little info I have, but we're not always (in fact we are rarely) at ease with ourselves in coming out, so she could be trans and throwing some of her own issues on you, rather than facing up to them in herself.

Not saying you should assume this is so, but it might be worth considering, or keeping it an open question, at least.

While I'm trying to be unreservedly supporting of my trans son's determination to move forward, there are times I've had some reservations that I could have brought up to him, but that seemed pointless to bring up given his mom is already voicing them. I have brought some of them up with my ex, though my aim in doing that was in part to counter her impression that I might be too ready to accept his trans identity for my own reasons (a concern she voiced to me directly -- and that I more or less expected -- during our most recent conversation after my son's 2nd session with his gender therapist).

For me there are also my feelings, expressed before he was born, about my reservations concerning having a male child. I have to acknowledge, for instance, that there's a temptation for me to emphasize the difference or relative uniqueness of his experience, and hang onto those aspects that remain feminine... though last night I did go through one of my albums from when he was a baby and toddler, to see more of the signs that I probably suppressed seeing, at least to some degree.

I certainly can't (and won't) claim that he was ever a typical girl... he was mainly always just himself, but especially after puberty hit, being himself became a much bigger source of conflict, given the changes to his body.

If I were still in heavy denial about myself, though, I could see my reaction being very different, even to the point of obstructive. Sometimes I still wonder whether that's not some part of what's going on within my ex's mind, though it does seem simpler at this point to more simply put it down to her being cisfemale, and helplessly attracted to male bodies only... there are still reasons, however, for me to doubt it's that simple.

Speaking as a parent, I have to wonder just what your dad thinks he's doing even asking you about whether you have any plans for bottom surgery? That's a very disrespectful (and intrusive!) thing for anyone to ask, but particularly a parent.

What you keep in your underwear is entirely your business and whilst I understand his curiosity, I find it slightly disturbing that your dad thinks it's appropriate to even discuss this with you. I wouldn't dream of asking my kids about their own genitals, for crying out loud. It's none of my business and I respect their privacy.

If I were you, I wouldn't discuss this with him any further. I'd tell him that the question is too personal and that you're not willing to discuss it with him. He's taking advantage of the fact that you're still quite young to ask you some inappropriate questions. You're under no obligation to tell him more than you want him to know - particularly about decisions you will make as an adult.

As for me, I'm definitely getting rid of the moobs and I'd at least like a meta, but my urinary system is badly damaged due to childbirth so I'll just have to see what's possible.

Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?

In-ter-es-ting.

I've often wondered this myself. I don't want to out them, but I know that a close relative of mine has some sort of dysphoria and appears to be something of a gender non-conformist. Whether they turn out to be trans remains to be seen. I'd be interested to know whether there's a link.

QuoteMy question is, how many of you have top surgery without bottom surgery...

QuoteJust tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.

I don't mean this in a smart alec way, but wouldn't most people who have top surgery do so without bottom surgery?
It's not like we can go forth and get genital surgery right away. The quote above about what to tell your parents reflects this & avoids food for argument. Has your father read the WPATH standards of care yet? Maybe that would be helpful.

I also know someone who's mother is mtf who is mtf/genderqueer/somewhere on the female side of the spectrum. I don't know of anyone in my family who is trans though, so if there is a genetic link they hide it very well. It's only now that people are going to discover something like this though, as not so many generations ago being trans would be a complete unthinkable abomination and people wouldn't be able to make that connection to their ancestors who may have felt similarly.

My Mom and her sister were actually surprised how common it is for transmen to not go through the bottom surgery and frankly, I'm not sure will I ever go through it either. At this moment I do feel like I might need it just to feel more... complete I guess. This opinion might change in the future to not needing it or totally needing it. I'll be waiting, though.

But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 10, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.

You're her child so her opinion of you could be different than the opinion she had of Thomas Beatie. I don't know one cis gendered person who thinks of him as a man because he had three children after he had transitioned. I think people's perception of him would be different if he had done so before transitioning. It's just hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept. To be totally honest (get out your pitchforks), it's hard for ME to understand and I'm trans so I can imagine how confusing it is to people who aren't.

Your Dad has a good way with words lol Doesnt offend me but I just find it shocking how parents who are apparently meant to love and care for their child/children regardless seem to throw out the most spiteful comments. As if your not going to get enough shyte from the world already?

I have had top surgery and I am currently fighting to get Phallo *fingers crossed* things go ahead. I do have worries etc. but for me i feel its the right thing to do.

Its a personal things and say to your Dad just that. It is PERSONAL. He shouldnt really give a shhh what is inbetween your legs anyway. Personally I would just agree with them. "Your f'd up and will be forever alone" lol

Thank you all for your views. It's been really interesting to see what you all think.
Joey

My mom wher all oposite when I told her, she said, I should NOT get a penis. like it would make her mad or something.
-
I don't have bottom surgery, first point is that is nearly imposible to get bottom surgery in my area, and its risky as they only have done around.. 3 surgions or something in 25 years.

when I where a kid I wanted bottom surgery very badly, and I still hear the "your not a real man if you dont have a penis" or "when are you to get a penis commen" I do sort of want it still but I dont want to risk everything like that so be honest I am more in the not-having bottom team.

I think cismen cant really related, its because theyre not used to it like we are.
its like comparing a guy whos afraid of of not being able to see with a guy who been blind for his whole life.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 10, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.

If you consider the histories and memoirs of the various female-bodied people who lived and often married with people assuming for decades they were men (sorry if I'm overassuming, but to me these people were at least likely to have been trans... one can split hairs on this, though, for decades and some historians have done so) -- what seems to be a common thread is that their spouses (in most of the known cases, those spouses were female) -- would generally report things after their partner's death and "unmasking" that suggested that genitalia played very little role in the relationships -- sure they might have been telling a tale to protect themselves and the truth might have varied from the reports, but above all the partners seem to have reported being very satisfied with those long-term relationships, many of them being marriages that lasted for many decades.

Few people spend that much of their lives engaged in sex acts, and especially without the side-effects of testosterone (which I have to guess was not a factor in these relationships before the 1960s  or later) satisfaction and pair bonding in these couples seems to me to have been better in many cases that what's often reported in cisgendered relationships of the same period(s).

It's male sexism that tends to emphasize genitalia to such a degree, when it's pretty much got to be a side issue, except with partners whose top priority is on bearing children.

Just a thought at this odd hour.

I agree with your dad.