There is a stereotype of what is deemed attractive in most cultures. In the United States that stereotype for men is usually a young mid 20's tall muscular man with a head full of thick hair and a jawline made of steel. I am sure in other Countries that stereotype rings true for the most part as well.

In the transman community (as a whole/not just here) many guys have a certain expectation of how their transition physically will play out once on testosterone. It tends to lead to narcissism for the first few years on hormones and it's understandable why. Most transguys for the first few years of HRT are handsome and appear to the outside world to be young men in their late teens or early twenties.

Then as time goes on reality sets in. Testosterone will age you. Most guys I have seen who have been on T for more than 5 to 7 years actually look their age or older. Testosterone (if you are genetically inclined) will make your hair fall out. Of course, you can go on propecia for the rest of your life but then there is another drug with even more side effects. I'm not sure about the statistic but I have heard 40 to 50 percent of transmen eventually go bald. We are more predispositioned to go bald than a cis male due to our XX chromosomes. T can cause weight gain. Scars left behind from years of acne. Starting testosterone is a big deal and there are physical changes that will never revert if you ever do choose to stop.

Some of you are probably wondering why I am even talking about this. I am not trying to talk anyone out of being who they are. I do think that sometimes our trans culture makes hormones sound as if they're not serious. They are VERY serious. More so than having surgery, imo. I see guys talking about never wanting surgery because it is too "permanent" or risky. Taking testosterone is just as permanent and can have ill effects on your health.

I just want people to think. I have seen quite a bit of transguys quit T after a year or so (and it is becoming more frequent). It's usually because they start getting effects that they don't want. Hair starts thinning or they notice a patch of back hair. I hate to inform guys but cis men have receding hairlines, bald spots, back hair, and hairy asses. Testosterone isn't going to whisk you away into pubescent boy land forever. That is the relatively short term.

To those who are starting out just ask yourself. Could you face yourself daily and be happy (that is the important part...the happiness) if you were a man who looked more like George Costanza than Brad Pitt? Could you live and be happy if you at some point decided to stop T and live with the irreversible changes that it caused in a very short period of time? 

I want everything this medical condition took away from me.

If that means going bald than be it. I'll rock my baldness.
Although baldness is no where in my genes, on both sides of the family.
Even my grand grand fathers got hair. But whatever, you never know.

I get your point though, and I wish more guys understood this.

Looking at both my dad and my grandpa, I'd say my chances of balding on T are pretty high. I feel like I'm prepared for that though.  If I start going bald I'm just going to shave my head and continue wearing awesome looking hats.

Look at the females in my family and the males in my family, I'm not likely to go bald in a way that is noticeable if my hair is longer than an inch.  I'm also not likely to develop back hair or even all that much hair on my chest and belly.  I'm also not likely to ever have the ability to grow a beard [not that I really want one, but the option to grow one would be nice]. They guys in my family all keep their hair until their 50s and most keep it until they die in their 90s, most are relatively hairless on the body as well.

But.   I'm prepared that I might go bald or that I might have copious amounts of body hair [there are such things as waxing and shaving].  It would be worth it to have this body fixed more towards what it should be. 

I'll probably get heat for this, but I really don't understand why so many ftms get so upset about baldness to the point of not taking T because of the fear of it. I mean, it's not something that cis guys look forward to either but it's generally what happens. If we had been born biologically male as we should've been, we'd be going through it just the same. I feel like T just gives us the male physical features that we were supposed to have... society is what tells us which of those are "positive" and which are "negative".

I've gained a lot of body hair on T but I've also lost a ridiculous amount, especially on my hairline which has receded a lot in just the last 1.5 years. Eventually I'm sure I'll be bald. It is what it is.

I agree with your post though, Simon -- T is definitely idealized, especially among younger ftms. I see it as one part of the equation. It all comes back to health and nutrition too. Not gonna get on my soap box again here lol, but I think you see a big difference in people on T over time who really take care of themselves and those who don't.

I totally get this. If we were biological men, we'd be facing everything that can happen testosterone just the same. There are extra issueswe run into what with being physically female and that's our responsibility to handle or maintain, but there shouldn't be so many who quit because they're not happy with the "cons".

I personally don't get those who choose to stop after a year or several years for more substantial reasons, but at least it's not because they noticed hair in places they didn't want it or some crap like that. My roommate is one to say he won't continue T past getting the changes he wants and I just don't get not wanting to have the correct hormone. Also if you plan a full hysto later, then you need hormones.

I don't think I have much going for me in the way of "desireable" anything. I have a horrible family health history that can be made worse by T if I don't take care of myself, my dad has been mistaken as my grandfather for as long as I can remember, and he's totally a balding bear. Even if I don't end up like him, I'll blindly take what I get from my mother's side gladly (since I've never met any of the men related to her). I don't care though. I did before I got on T and realized my mistake. I want to be the man I should've been born and I will take what comes with it.

Quote from: Simon on January 16, 2013, 06:32:21 AM
[stuff]

You forgot to mention the backside carpeting. XD


I knew my hair would likely be history before I started T - but then it started thinning pre-T. A hairdresser commented on it, I said it was caused by a condition called "genetic misfortune". :p  Also, my dad and older brother started balding in their early twenties, so I had a good run, I suppose. XD  Oh, and because of the pre-T hairloss (following a female hairloss pattern), I was relieved to get a receding hairline, thus a more masculine appearance.

I think that this has less to do with T and more to do with getting older? Getting older as a male and getting older as a woman, on a purely physical level, you got to take care of yourself, or you'll look bad. Everyone's hair can thin/bald, everyone can get fat. Young people tend not to think about the ugly sides of T, they and idealize masculinity, but only in these socially acceptable ways. So they revert to what's 'safer' for them. I think its important that everyone transitioning looks at their parents/family to get a sense of where they will be when they're older. I personally idolize my uncle. Thats what I want to be when I'm 35-40. Not Brad Pitt, not someone that gets paid to look good. How can ANYone expect to achieve that living a normal life, man or woman? No one's beautiful forever I guess is what Im trying to say.

I'm a younger ftm, so at the moment I do want to get on T to look like a teenaged guy. The doesn't mean I want to stay in a hire time warp though, I want to age properly so that I'm not forever cringing inside at photos of me and my girlfriend because it looks like a 20 year old is going out with a 12 year old. I want to get older and look my age, with necessary receding hairline, body hair and wrinkles. I don't look at guys my age or older couple older than think "that's my goal," I look at them and think, "that's what I should look like now," and then at a forty year old and think, "now THAT'S my goal."

I'm not trans so I can look like a hot guy, I'm trans so I don't breakdown in the shower at the sight of my body, and so I can live life as myself in comfort. I can't say I want to lose my hair, but I can't understand people who would rather go back to hating their bodies to the point of considering whether it's even worth carrying on in them just so they liked their head hair. I'm just like a cis guy, having hair would be nice, and shaving can be a pain but it's part and parcel of male life.

I'm under no illusions that T is a wonder drug, it's not, but it sure as heck make life a lot more wonderful. I can't imagine living my life as a forty year old female, but I can as a forty year old man, with the start of wrinkles, receding hairline and hair turning more grey than brown. Life is life.

I don't agree that T really ages you. I have seen several people who have transitioned in their 40s and older and they don't look older. However, I agree you will eventually look more your age, if you are younger. What some guys who pass pre-T are doing is passing as VERY young men. So you get on T and then you look like your given age. That might make you look "older" but you don't really look older than you are. I've also seen guys that start their transition in their 20s and then their last youtube post is in their 30s. Well duh, of course the guy looks older!

I agree with your other points (and actually maybe helped you make them). I have seen a few guys that get all worried about hair and end up on finistriade (sp?) and even stopped T, because they start getting a male hair line-- not sure that that helps that transition though

I've seen guys where being on T helps their health, but more because now that they are in their approp bodies they feel more like working to protect them.

--Jay

My professional opinion, is that age will make you look older. 

It's okay to stop taking T. It's okay to continue taking T. You have to do what's necessary for you.

I have a friend who transitioned. He was on T for three years, had top surgery and bottom surgery then stopped taking T. He's happy, and he's just as male as anybody else.

We get to choose (to some degree) what happens to our bodies. If the results of testosterone give us effects that make us uncomfortable, we're often able to adjust our treatment in an attempt to get rid of those negative effects while a cis guy would usually have to kind of deal with it.

I'd also like to point out that after one year I really didn't have that many changes, and that if I stopped T after one year there would've been no difference socially between that and how I was treated pre-T.

Here's an interesting take on the appearance of aging differences between men and women. When I saw this video, I recalled all the guys over here who are eager to look closer to their actual ages after they've been on T for a while and how it seems to be a common issue that FTM guys often look really young for a while, sometimes to an uncomfortable degree. It ventures out into some other subjects of gender but I thought it might be interesting to some folks strictly for the biology discussion portion.

Quote from: Jayr on January 16, 2013, 07:08:47 AM
If that means going bald than be it. I'll rock my baldness.

This.
Then again, judging by my Mom's father (I don't know anyone from my dad's side and frankly I don't give a damn) I don't have any baldness genes from that side. My grandpa had pretty thick hair all the way he passed away.

Besides, the changes I look forward to get from T are voice change and facial hair.
Body hair? I've been like a little monkey my whole life, it's just never been very visible since I'm a natural blond.
If I end up looking like an old geezer then so be it. Older men can be quite sexy IMO.

Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 16, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
Older men can be quite sexy IMO.

Alan Rickman, anyone?

Girls and guys a like can be attracted to older looking guys regardless of age.  I have a friend who we call a grave robber because she prefers her guys to be at least 30 years older than her even if she's dating someone who's her age.  Without him, she'd probably have run off with someone who's graying and old.

This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?

I'd do the research myself, even if I expected the doctor to give me a good talking to, but I guess it seems like other people don't do the appropriate level of research into the negative effects or just don't think them through all the way.

Like some others above have said, I wouldn't get off T just because I didn't like a receeding hairline or back hair. There's ways you can take care of that without getting off T if it really bothers you that much, and I think people would get used to the receeding hairline over time anyways (and getting bald spots happens to women too). But, I also agree with Nygeel, people can choose to get off whenever they want, for whatever reason, it doesn't bother me. Though like taking any drug, people shouldn't just go into it lightly.

Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?

I got pretty much a full lecture of all the possible side effects, good and bad.
Then I had to sign a paper which proves that said lecture has been given to me and I'm aware of all the possible things of HRT.

I think one of the problems is that a lot of the really conventionally attractive trans guys get the most exposure/hits on youtube. I guess that's how life works, but when you go on youtube as a person trying to figure out some more about transition, and you find these guys who went from looking like awkward 12 year old boys to these muscular, attractive 20-somethings...yeah, I can see why people get unrealistic expectations. I didn't because I am the eternal pessimist and always research the worst possible outcome, lol.

It seems lot of people aren't actually aware of what T does before they begin it (which is shocking to me), and then when they get changes that are less visible to the outside world (body hair in weird places, balding) they're surprised. Sometimes unpleasantly. But I agree with lexical here - I don't understand why the fear of being bald would be enough to stop someone from transitioning. I don't want to go bald myself, and it feels bad to feel ugly, but living forever as female would be way worse than the feeling of going bald or not being as attractive as society tells me I should be.

I'm okay with whatever T does to me because I feel that whatever problems arise are ones I should've had to begin with.

Quote from: LearnedHand on January 16, 2013, 02:56:51 PM
This may be a stupid question, but since I am not on T just curious to know, when you go into the endo or whoever gives you the T prescription, do they really give you a good talk about the side effects, etc. of being on T? Or is it just like "okay, here you go" and they just expect you to do the research yourself?

My Endo stressed the internal changes that can occur on T. Now this is a doctor who is high up in her field and been prescribing hormones for over thirty years. I was sent to her by my gyno because this Endo specializes in rare conditions that have altered someone's hormone levels. When I received my prescription for T she didn't go over any of the physical changes. Her concern was solely emotional and the health aspect.