Sometimes there are times when I question my own gender identity. As a child I had more male friends than female and wanted to be seen as one of the boys. I liked toys more aimed at boys than girls. I have always hated my body, and especially felt my genitals were wrong, like I should have had been born with male hookups instead. People calling me pretty for reasons I couldn't explain made me uncomfortable. I always have hated female pronouns, but put up a front of tolerating them and even used them because that was what was expected of me. I was raised to believe I was female and could only be female, and that sex and gender were one in the same; and I received abuse for not being "feminine enough" growing up by members of my own immediate family. Recently I made some discoveries online and decided I was trans male.

Yet sometimes I doubt my identity. I don't like sports, I'm not huge into cars. But I'm not into most things that are labelled girly either. But sometimes I like to wear necklaces that aren't explicitly frilly/pink/etc or hats that some people consider feminine even though I've seen men and women wearing them. I once had someone do a manicure and I enjoyed it. Then I felt horrendously guilty because that is often seen as a "feminine" thing. That and the guy that did the demo obviously read me as female because even the most masculine clothes have a hard time hiding my unfortunate curves, and my voice gives me away.

I used to identify as gender queer, or gender queer masculine/male. I'm still terrified of top surgery simply because it's a major surgery and it can leave some pretty distinctive scars. Even then I still preferred male pronouns, referring to my junk in male terms, and had bad body dysphoria and felt I was born with the wrong genitals. But without being able to afford any surgeries or even hormones and being unable to completely physically transition for other legitimate reasons as well, I sometimes feel like I'm joking myself. That maybe I'm supposed to be androgynous, since even when I cut my hair short, I just look androgynous. But yet I prefer male pronouns and want a cis male body.

Is any of this common or "normal"? There is really no LGBT (especially not the T part) community around here, and no gender or trans experienced counselors I can talk to about it. So here I am rambling.

I'm starting to suspect it's more unusual not to have doubts like this.

I know I doubt it all the time. I feel like I'm not even qualified to make the decision of whether I'm trans or not for myself. I wish I could just get a brain scan and be told "ah yes, you have a boy's brain, here's a certificate you can show people if they ever doubt your maleness". But here's the thing: if that scan came back saying I was female, I'd burst into tears at best; kill myself at worst. So if nothing else, that fact alone should be enough to prove that I'm not happy as a girl. And isn't that the heart of what it means to be trans -- wanting to be happier?

You are normal.

I think within the trans community there is a sense of urgency to get through transition. Go to the doc, get your hormones, change your name, have surgery...blah blah...and be done with it as fast as possible. I can see how someone who is on the outside looking in can see this as a daunting and scary undertaking.

There seems to be no end to the trans people who are so sure of themselves and jumping right in. The thing that you aren't seeing is the fact that many (if not most) of us have been dealing with trans issues for years. What you're witnessing is us finally getting to the point where we can transition medically. You'll also notice (after you've been in the online trans community for a long time) that a few years after medical transition a good 95% of trans people disappear. Life goes on and transition just becomes a hurdle that they've overcome.

What you're not seeing in most cases is the years of doubt, hurt, etc that many people go through before they start medically transitioning. It always looks like "full steam ahead" but trust me...a lot of the times that is not the case. If someone was to tell me that they woke up last month out of the blue and knew they were trans, talked to the doctor, and are now on hormones I'd tell them they were insane. This is a long process of self discovery and is the most challenging undertakings there is. You are changing your body and how everyone around you has ever perceived you.

The first thing I think you need to let go of is preconceived notions of "gender norms". There are so many variations of gender expression in the trans and cis world. You need to find out who YOU are. If you feel more comfortable being androgynous then be androgynous. There is no reason you have to transition. If you want to transition with just hormones and never have any surgery that is fine too. Whatever it is that makes YOU feel whole.

Transgender, Transsexual, Androgynous, and everything else is just labels...only words. Quit worrying about fitting into any label there is and just find out what makes you happy. That is all that matters.

Like those above have said, you're completely normal. Everyone has doubts and feelings of guilt. Transition is a huge process where you really need to think things over and analyze yourself to find out what you really need to be happy. Doing or liking things that is typically considered feminine doesn't mean you're not male, most of the guys on here (and even cisguys) can list off some typical feminine things that they enjoy (I like knitting and the color pink ). You just need to realize that it's okay to not be the stereotypical male, and that you don't need to even medically transition to be male. When I was younger, I had no idea of all the medical possibilities there was to transition, or I thought anything there was would be completely unaffordable, so part of the reason why I stuck with living as a female was because I thought life would just seem like such a joke if I introduced myself to people as a male but I had obvious female features. But, I think there's ways that people can deal with no being able to transition medically, and talking to a gender therapist or other person could be helpful.

Quote from: AlexD on January 16, 2013, 01:01:10 AM
I'm starting to suspect it's more unusual not to have doubts like this.

I know I doubt it all the time. I feel like I'm not even qualified to make the decision of whether I'm trans or not for myself. I wish I could just get a brain scan and be told "ah yes, you have a boy's brain, here's a certificate you can show people if they ever doubt your maleness". But here's the thing: if that scan came back saying I was female, I'd burst into tears at best; kill myself at worst. So if nothing else, that fact alone should be enough to prove that I'm not happy as a girl. And isn't that the heart of what it means to be trans -- wanting to be happier?

That was phrased so well. I needed to hear that too.
I often wonder if I could have been happy as a girl. Since as young as I can remember I wanted to be a boy and so I got as close as I could without medical help because my mom would not approve it. Because of it a small part of me always wondered if I had tried to fit into society and tried to be a "normal" girl if I could have been happy. After I started T a few months ago the thoughts and doubts went away because I was so much happier. But so much crap has happened in my life lately that the thoughts are back. And even though I know I want to be a guy it's hard to not wonder what if. Anyways, thank you, the way you put that just makes me feel so much better.

Thank you all very much for your well thought out, deep responses. I seem to remember reading something about trans people "disappearing" from the trans community once they transition, and some going stealth into the cis world. But you're right, I see so many people transitioning so fast or getting their medical things done whether it's surgical or hormonal.

I guess I worry too much what other people think. Strangely when I was younger and in denial, I was often seen as male. Now as an adult I am usually "ma'amed", almost always once people hear my voice. It's hard not being able to have hormones when everyone thinks you are female because, curves and higher voice to most of the cis world means female. I guess I feel like if I can't transition, can't afford surgery, am I being dishonest by identifying as male, is it wrong for me to? What "average" male has such a chest and an hourglass figure? I don't feel androgynous though, I feel like a male that is in touch with his "feminine side" as many would put it. A male that doesn't feel expressing emotions is wrong or bad. Even though I was told this as a child by one parent, I realize cis men have it harder and are pressured more on this by society, but I just don't feel that way, I believe emotions, especially things like empathy are important. This has made cis males not take me seriously even call me "crazy", because they think men shouldn't be emotional, that they should never cry.

You should identify in any way that makes you comfortable. The only thing is when you're in society people are going to assume your gender by what they see, so don't let that get you down.

Cis males are telling you that men shouldn't be emotional? Well, that is how many men are raised. Can't fault them for it. Come to think of it the only time I have ever seen cis men cry has been because of a death in the family. I'm sure there are cis men who are more in touch with their emotions and don't mind shedding tears. I just don't know any, lol. That doesn't really matter though. If you feel the need to cry then cry.

Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 12:24:32 AM
Cis males are telling you that men shouldn't be emotional? Well, that is how many men are raised. Can't fault them for it. Come to think of it the only time I have ever seen cis men cry has been because of a death in the family. I'm sure there are cis men who are more in touch with their emotions and don't mind shedding tears. I just don't know any, lol.

I don't know why I'm having a problem with this statement. I should be pleased. After all I'm a transwoman, largely detached from any desire or coercion to identify as  a cis man.

Maybe it's that my transman son cried during Les Miz? He doesn't cry as much as I do, but he does cry at times. Maybe this will change when he's on T?

I do think it's rare, but it happens. And I guess I don't want to presume that some presumed cis guy I meet might turn out to be a transwoman, based just on his ability to cry? Being open to crying has probably been a big part of my pride in my identity, in what I value about being me, maybe apart from all the labels. Then again, I can't name any other guys I know well who cry much, and if they do, it seems to be something they take great pains to conceal.

I don't have any more estrogen due to medical reasons. (Though I am pre-T-- boy will I be happy when I no longer am saying this!!!) Anyway, I cry, but rarely-- I think it is E that makes people emotional and not T that makes you less so. But anyway, I used to cry at commercials for telephone companies and so on. It was crazy. But now I do. They did this interview with a Sandy Hook parent who lost a child. The thing is in the comments a lot of guys said they cried too. But it takes quite a lot more to get me to do so. I think it's probably a way over done stereotype.

BTW, there are guys that "disappear" into the cis community and there are others who remain visible for their own reasons.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 17, 2013, 10:50:30 AM
I think it is E that makes people emotional and not T that makes you less so.

This does seem to be the general impression, so there's probably some truth to it. And being pre-HRT, I don't have a baseline to compare to. I very well may be a crying mess once I start HRT... in some ways it may be one of the things that led me to put it off... being already an emotional wreck so much of the time... but maybe too, it will return me to a state I was in more during childhood, when crying was much easier, and much, much more frequent for me.  I cry during most of the key moments of any movie or TV show. I start tearing up sometimes just at the opening credits of Contact because I know that some emotional moments are ahead for Ellie with her dad. (I only noticed the other day that the character has both of the names that are on my shortlist for when I do the legal name change).

@Elspeth, not to imply that E actually makes you a big emotional mess. I don't think that's the case as women having more emotionality accessible to them is so complex (socialization, culture, expectations, etc). But I have noticed a big change. Something a lot of guys associate with T. I don't think it could be the T, since grumble grumble...

It's interesting that a lot of transguys consider this change MUCH more comfortable. OTOH, I have seen mtfs consider the change towards easier crying more comfortable.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on January 17, 2013, 10:50:30 AM
I don't have any more estrogen due to medical reasons.

Off topic but if you don't have any estrogen in your body and are pre T you need to get on hormones quickly. Your bone health with greatly suffer if you do not.

Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 04:05:40 PM
Off topic but if you don't have any estrogen in your body and are pre T you need to get on hormones quickly. Your bone health with greatly suffer if you do not.

Most female bodied people over the age of fourty/fifty have been through menopause, and their bodies produce estrogen in their bones, blood vessels and brains, so I'm guessing that the chances of getting osteoporosis are going to be the same for a pre-T guy that's not producing estrogen is the same as for one of them, and not everyone post menopause gets osteoporosis.  Your bone density will weaken, and it is something that should probably be monitored, but it's not the end of the world if you're not producing estrogen in the ovaries for a couple of years.  I'd certainly not take it as a reason to rush into hormones.

Quote from: Alex000000 on January 17, 2013, 05:31:59 PM
Your bone density will weaken, and it is something that should probably be monitored, but it's not the end of the world if you're not producing estrogen in the ovaries for a couple of years.  I'd certainly not take it as a reason to rush into hormones.

Post menopausal is different but I am going by what my surgeon told me. I started T four days after my hysto and she said I would need to be on one hormone or the other for the rest of my life. If not my body would suffer years down the road.

Also Alex, has anyone ever told you that you look like Greyson Chance? 

Quote from: Simon on January 17, 2013, 05:47:46 PM
Post menopausal is different but I am going by what my surgeon told me. I started T four days after my hysto and she said I would need to be on one hormone or the other for the rest of my life. If not my body would suffer years down the road.

Also Alex, has anyone ever told you that you look like Greyson Chance?

From what I've just read they put people on HRT of one form of another following a hysto because the surgical menopause that happens brings on the nasty bits of a menopause much more intense because of the shock of sudden hormone changes.  I can't really see why there would be a difference between that and a natural menopause apart from the initial shock to the body, but then again I'm not a doctor, and I agree that having poor bone density isn't a good thing, my nan's always fretting about measuring herself encase she's shrinking from her osteoporosis.  I'm also getting nagged by her to drink milk, but I can't stand the stuff at all, and I know I'll be on T for the rest of my life probably anyway.

Nope, never even heard of him before.  Hopefully I look fractionally older than him though.

Anyway, on topic.  Yeah it's pretty normal to have doubts like this, it's a huge thing to wrap your head around, but you need to find what's comfortable for you, not what society things is best for you.  Don't get carried away with the idea of this is a girl thing, and that is a boy thing, because that doesn't make people happy.

And as for estrogen, I'm not on T yet, but when I got told off at school I'd not care at all, and be giving backchat to the teachers, and find myself crying for no reason.  If T stops that I will be eternally grateful, random crying = dysphoria = wanting to cry.

For the OP: If you have no doubts, that is more of a warning sign than having a thousand, in my mind. Before I got on hormones, I would waver about if it was worth everything that came along with transition. I had probably three pro/con lists laying around and I would wake up in the middle of the night, shake my husband and say "Oh, but if I do start, what if (insert bizarre situation/event here) happens?" He would look at me like I had lost my mind and say "Then your transitioning would be the least of our worries."

For anyone having doubts, I would say remember that you are making a huge decision. While you may remain largely the same (I did without the crazy, insane fits of anger) the world outside of you will react to you differently. The first time a woman pretended to talk on her phone when I was behind her, I was floored. I was just derping along going to the station and looking about as meek as possible and she felt threatened enough to do the phone to the ear bit. The first time I not could walk into a women's room (I had only been on hormones for 3 months) I was pretty elated until the old woman told me that I should be careful or they would label me a pervert. Even the way my family talks to me is a little different. Outside of the social situations, you're making a choice to take medication that can and will affect your health. Things as little as skin changes (acne, texture, etc) to as big as blood thickening, stroke, heart attack...

If I could have lied happily like I was, I would have. I don't feel guilty about who I am any more, but that is because I am coming to actually be at peace with myself. I had guilt and doubts for over ten years before I even uttered the word "trans" and even then it was another four before I talked to a counselor. It is okay to doubt and worry.

My last point would be this: not everyone has the same timeline. You make the choice about when you transition, what steps you take (if any). My timeline isn't the same as Alex, Simon or aleon, and that's fine. It's your story, so just take as much time as you need and remember, we all have doubts about everything.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 17, 2013, 01:04:26 AM
I don't know why I'm having a problem with this statement. I should be pleased. After all I'm a transwoman, largely detached from any desire or coercion to identify as  a cis man.

Maybe it's that my transman son cried during Les Miz? He doesn't cry as much as I do, but he does cry at times. Maybe this will change when he's on T?

I do think it's rare, but it happens. And I guess I don't want to presume that some presumed cis guy I meet might turn out to be a transwoman, based just on his ability to cry? Being open to crying has probably been a big part of my pride in my identity, in what I value about being me, maybe apart from all the labels. Then again, I can't name any other guys I know well who cry much, and if they do, it seems to be something they take great pains to conceal.

Apparently I am in the minority, but I can cry just as easily now after almost a year on T as I could when I was on and off hormonal birth control two years ago. I cry less because I'm overall just a happier person now, but I recently watched an episode of a show and bawled my eyes out. The only reason most men do not cry is because they are taught its "weak" or "feminine". My husband has no problem breaking down into tears when he is frustrated, sad or watching something emotional. I've seen a biker the first time he saw his granddaughter, and my dad break down into tears when he found a picture of his old police buddy who was killed in action (just to name two instances that came to mind, I have several more). So, men cry at far more than just a death in the family. I've found that testosterone has only changed my physical appearance and my mental stability. It didn't make me less emotional (as in being able to express my emotions and talk openly), more aggressive or more interested in sex. I think for a lot of people, they cry less because they feel less awful about themselves. I would hazard that for the women, it is a breath of fresh air to be able to express those emotions without worrying.

Quote from: Alex000000 on January 17, 2013, 06:08:57 PM
From what I've just read they put people on HRT of one form of another following a hysto because the surgical menopause that happens brings on the nasty bits of a menopause much more intense because of the shock of sudden hormone changes.  I can't really see why there would be a difference between that and a natural menopause apart from the initial shock to the body, but then again I'm not a doctor, and I agree that having poor bone density isn't a good thing, my nan's always fretting about measuring herself encase she's shrinking from her osteoporosis.  I'm also getting nagged by her to drink milk, but I can't stand the stuff at all, and I know I'll be on T for the rest of my life probably anyway.

My grandmother and Aunt had a full hysto and they both basically described it like that when we were discussing some surgery options for me. A sudden, huge shock to the system. Menopause happens more gradually (like hot flashes when I first started T) whereas with the sudden lack of any sexed hormones, the body gets confused. At least during menopause, there is still a flow of hormones, it is just usually much less and can be supplemented by medication. The bone density is definitely a concern though. I read somewhere that bodies fueled by estrogen (natural or supplemented) have to be more careful about bone density even before cessation of the hormones, especially if they drink a lot of soda or carbonated things. It makes sense, seeing as most folks who had osteoporosis when I was working as a pharmacy tech were elderly women.

*if there are horrible typos or anything, I apologize. I have not had enough coffee.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 17, 2013, 11:55:58 AM
This does seem to be the general impression, so there's probably some truth to it. And being pre-HRT, I don't have a baseline to compare to. I very well may be a crying mess once I start HRT... in some ways it may be one of the things that led me to put it off... being already an emotional wreck so much of the time... but maybe too, it will return me to a state I was in more during childhood, when crying was much easier, and much, much more frequent for me.  I cry during most of the key moments of any movie or TV show. I start tearing up sometimes just at the opening credits of Contact because I know that some emotional moments are ahead for Ellie with her dad. (I only noticed the other day that the character has both of the names that are on my shortlist for when I do the legal name change).

personally T made it abit harder for me to cry, But I think in general whatever people cry or not depends on them.
I general been a crybaby But I also hated to seam "weak" so I almost never cried in front of others.
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for the op:

you seams very normal to me. Just remember that steryotypical gendernorms isnt what makes someone guy or a girl.

a skirt dosent make you a girl, men also have them in scotland
make up isnt just for girl, what about adam lambert or the singer of green day?
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I came to giggle abit during your post cause I know a cisgender guy who looks pretty maculine and he also done manucure or what its called when you do your nails? he recently came out about his sexualety last year and since then his been a bit more openminded of not limited steryotypical gendernorms.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 17, 2013, 03:30:23 PM
It's interesting that a lot of transguys consider this change MUCH more comfortable. OTOH, I have seen mtfs consider the change towards easier crying more comfortable.

Don't get me wrong. There's an aspect of this likely change that would be gratifying and self-affirming for me. (And if it didn't happen, I think it could trigger a major depression). Fear of the unknown or uncertain can be like that. Granted, considering the relief I felt in coming out to a huge group of friends and acquaintances lately, my fears about a bad outcome are much less active than they were before the turning of the year.

Where the concern comes in for me is in part that I have read many, many accounts (I've been in contact with transwomen online and in person for more than 20 years now, since at least my late 20s... earlier if I consider some more hard-to-read interactions with friends in my teens and 20s). Actually, my awareness and reading on this goes back before my teens.

I just know that I have always tended to lead with my emotions, even at the times I was the most closeted, so the concern is (in part) that amplifying that by having the hormone balance I have so long wished for, could lead to a meltdown. There's probably a good chance that, having recognized this and accepted it in myself, all I would really experience would be relief. But I've had conversations with friends over the years that do leave me aware that hormone-assisted emotional mood swings can be quite overwhelming.

There's also the factor to consider, that I have a bipolar diagnosis in my history, and that hormonal mood swings might make that harder to manage, or might make it present in a more typical way... my ex-therapist, despite my repeated "are you sure?"s insisted up and down that he was certain I was not bipolar before pushing the SSRIs on me that triggered a manic episode, visions of Goddesses (that I'm eternally thankful for) and a long course of drugs to recover from that episode. So I think it is probably wise of me to be concerned. Also wise to be sure I'm getting adequate supervision whenever I do managed to begin HRT, which at this point in time feels like something I can no longer manage to live without for much longer, unless I want to court a very deep depression.

In terms of crying before starting T I would cry at everything, even when I wasn't upset, I had no control over it, it was frustrating. After starting T I can't cry, even when I'm really upset. It's much better than crying all the time but I wish there was some middle ground. I'll be upset and want to cry to kind of release the emotions and I can't.

Thank you all for your responses and in depth conversation.

My biggest fear is changing completely on T, also the health risks such as stroke and heart attack. What if I don't like the person I am on T or some of the changes, which will be permanent? I know it's probably one of those least of my worries kind of thing, but another concern is the change in chest tissue. I can't afford to have top surgery and may never be able to, and I've heard the chest looks a lot different on T. I've heard a lot of people describe it as really unattractive, and I already have low self esteem when it comes to my body.