Kia Ora,

Just thought some might find this interesting...Here's a nibble of the full article:

"The stability of both gender and sexual orientation categories, however, is called into question by transgender identities. Transgender people violate what Garfinkel (1967)called the natural attitude toward gender by changing from one gender to another or by not conforming to societal expectations for male or female-bodied people.

Furthermore, they challenge the concept of sexual orientation, which relies on a  binary view of gender for its coherence (Moradi et al.2009).Thus, although most contemporary conceptions of transgender identity distinguish gender identity from sexual orientation(but see Valentine2007, for discussion), attitudes toward transgender people are likely to be closely related to attitudes toward sexual minorities, especially gay men, and this linkage may be stronger among heterosexual men than heterosexual women.

Indeed, in a study conducted with a U.S. student sample, statistically controlling for sexual prejudice reduced the correlations between men's transgender attitudes and their levels of authoritarianism and religious conservatism to non-significance; for women, by contrast, the correlations remained significant when sexual prejudice was controlled(Nagoshi et al.2008). Thus, men's attitudes toward gender and sexual minorities appeared to share the same psychological sources, whereas women's attitudes did not."

Link to full article/study

http://www.academia.edu/1220851/Heterosexuals_Attitudes_Toward_Transgender_People_Findings_from_a_National_Probability_Sample_of_U.S._Adults

Metta Zenda

"Thus, men's attitudes toward gender and sexual minorities appeared to share the same psychological sources, whereas women's attitudes did not."


Interesting to me & that the two leading TERFs I'm aware of, Julie Bindel and Shelia Jeffreys, are both lesbians. Combine that with a 2008 study into the brain centres responsible for sexual attraction which found that lesbian brains to have more in common with heterosexual men than heterosexual women. Lends a veneer of support to my pet theory that TERF responses to transgender people are motivated less by ideological purity than basic knuckle dragging sex. 

No wonder they have such hostility to the brain sex theory - effectively it means they think like men - the horror!  A case of trans people in denial/ trapped by the constraints of their own dogma perhaps? A bit like not being able accept your transness because that conflicts with your faith. Which also makes sense to me because I think a lot of religious people sublimate sexual feelings into spiritual expression & I've certainly read work of Jeffrey's where she writes of lesbian love in terms of near spiritual purity.

Hmmm

What's a "TERF"?

I note that I have recently had some epic-length arguments with people about issues related to brain sex, and as a side effect, I have now encountered at least one person who identifies as female based on feeling more comfortable with her society's views of femininity, not because of "feeling female" as a thing in and of itself. (This shocked me, because every trans person I'd met previously regarded the gender identity as the primary experience, and interaction with social norms as a side-effect of it.)

Quote from: seebs on January 20, 2013, 07:11:38 PM
What's a "TERF"?

I note that I have recently had some epic-length arguments with people about issues related to brain sex, and as a side effect, I have now encountered at least one person who identifies as female based on feeling more comfortable with her society's views of femininity, not because of "feeling female" as a thing in and of itself. (This shocked me, because every trans person I'd met previously regarded the gender identity as the primary experience, and interaction with social norms as a side-effect of it.)

Kia Ora Seebs

"TERF Definition Acronym for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist" Feminists who claim that trans women 'aren't' really women... I just looked it up on google...I think the two Anna mentioned are from the UK....

Metta Zenda

I'm immensely amused that we have managed to rattle their cage sufficiently that they need to actually invent a term for themselves.

I suppose then that this means intersex people in addition to transgender people cannot be bisexual or lesbian or gay either by this articles reasoning, because they are violating the natural attitude towards gender as well?

I'm not sure who coined it but it's the best thing I can think of without resorting to language that inadvertently brought in people I have no issues with (I was using "lesbian radfems" before and that didn't really address the issue and suggested I have problems with lesbians and feminists which as a matter of general principle I do not - for fairly obvious reasons).

The TERFs annoy me though because they seek to deny the reality of the trans condition not by reference to any scientific evidence but purely to rad fem dogma dreamed up in the late 70's that somehow transsexualism is an example of transwomen/ i.e men in their view "raping" (their use not mine) women by appropriating the female form. It's classic extremism. No different in its bigotry than the worst of stuff from the Abrahamic faiths.  They pay no attention to recent science and ignore or seek to undermine anything that contradicts the sacred cows of their theories which in this case were written decades ago in a much more ignorant time. It's pretty disgusting to see the stuff they come up with but until now they've thought they could get away with bullying transpeople in the press. There's been a huge spat in the liberal press here between them and trans supporting people recently.  They are I am happy to say a minority and I think time will show them up for what they really are.

This article that Zythyra linked to is part of the whole ongoing debate in the press. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,134147.msg1069366.html#new



Most trans people in the debate have been intelligent, informed and courteous but some apparently have used threats of violence (not that I have seen any TBH) and that's kind of played into the hands of the people trying to suggest that transwomen are just violent, dangerous men in dresses. Funnily enough they don't seem to have much to say about transmen.

The connection to the OPs article is just that I find it hilariously ironic that if the brain sex theory is true then the TERFs have more in common with the attitudes to women of "sexually predatory" heterosexual men than any transwoman ever will.

What I see is belief systems being challenged. Transgender people fly against the grain of the gender binary system that's in place. I'm amazed that some GL folks will staunchly defend the same binary system that was used against them. 

There's too much good science for people to ignore. Scientists long ago knew that there were more expressions of sexuality and gender but they choose to sweep it under the rug. In our society there's also the expectations: a boy is suppose to be a boy, a girl is a girl. If one deviates from the so-called norm then there's a problem. Many folks believe that belief systems are infinite, but they are not.   

Quote from: gennee on January 23, 2013, 10:41:08 AM
What I see is belief systems being challenged. Transgender people fly against the grain of the gender binary system that's in place. I'm amazed that some GL folks will staunchly defend the same binary system that was used against them. 

There's too much good science for people to ignore. Scientists long ago knew that there were more expressions of sexuality and gender but they choose to sweep it under the rug. In our society there's also the expectations: a boy is suppose to be a boy, a girl is a girl. If one deviates from the so-called norm then there's a problem. Many folks believe that belief systems are infinite, but they are not.

Right on Gennee! There are some fertile minds with too much time on their hands at work busy pushing the envelope on their own agenda to the exclusion of all else. The reasoning gets so convoluted as to lose me completely, the motives are always rather suspect when one considers the source.