Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
I have noticed multiple people say they felt that there is a peer pressure in the trans community to get on hormones and get on with it. Almost as if you're not a "real transman" until you've stuck a needle in your body. There is nothing farther from the truth.

This is one of the main reasons why I'm not part of any in person "community". Since I'm unwilling to transition at all, people basically say I'm full of it and not trans at all.

Quote from: Simon on January 21, 2013, 05:22:08 PM
I think some guys are cavalier about the process of really studying up on medical transition before starting it because that would mean they might have to wait a little longer. It means they might stumble on something that changes their minds or something that makes them apprehensive.

A big part of the transman experience is supposedly knowing you have to have T and you have to have top surgery. Can't live without it. Shouldn't question it. If you do question it you may be opening yourself up to someone saying you're not a man. Then these guys who aren't 100% positive that this is what they want for the rest of their lives start transitioning medically because "it's what they're supposed to do". There are a lot of things that trans people should sort out before jumping at HRT. It is much better to have doubts before hormones than to deal with doubts a year after you've started.

I've actually seen people pretty much say they didn't research because they wanted to get on T as soon as possible.

But then again, this is no more baffling to me than all the people who are now taking prescription drugs for damn near everything that have "side effects" like "fatal events" (death is not a side effect folks, it's death).

There seems to be a society-wide thing happening where people, especially young people seem to have this attitude where things can't harm them. I have a friend who's lost a family member to AIDS and is somewhat involved in AIDS awareness. She said that a recent poll happened where young people are going back to un-safe sex because they think they can just take a pill if they get AIDS and manage it. Scary.

So it's not just hormones ... and it's not even just confined to the younger generations. It something that's happening across the board where people are taking more and more risks with their health. So it's no real surprise to me when I see people rushing to get on HRT and not really showing too much concern for any ill effects that might happen.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on January 21, 2013, 09:47:50 PMShe said that a recent poll happened where young people are going back to un-safe sex because they think they can just take a pill if they get AIDS and manage it. Scary.

This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.

I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.

Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.

I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.

Yeah it's scary. Someone should go to talk to them about what it's like to be on anti-retroviral treatment. I haven't heard this stuff for years.


--Jay

Some of people's attitudes toward aging and looking less attractive don't make sense to me. I can't imagine just bumbling into transition like it's a fast food meal or something. Even a perfunctory internet search makes it clear there's no magic and we've got a hard path.

Maybe there are generational and other differences I'm unaware of. I didn't start until after I'd spent decades obsessing about biology and being repressed and closeted, so lol it's pretty easy to meet my definition of miraculous.

The way I see it is we'll age regardless of whether we're on T or not. Do I want to age? Well, to an extent, but to be old? No, but that won't stop it from happening. Do I want to go bald? No and I will have to deal with that if/when it happens. I know there will probably be effects I don't like and effects I want that I don't get. I know there are effects I have to keep an eye out for that are potentially dangerous and I will take steps to keep on top of those as much as I can (like seeing my doctor regularly and keeping her informed). I know that T can't solve some problems like my hands and skeletal structure. I know I may never look like a guy. I know I may look like an ugly guy (although I will try to control what I can such as exercise and eating right). I feel I have to try though. I don't want to go on T to be pretty. I want to go on T in the hopes that one day I'll be able to see myself when I look in the mirror. Even if that never happens, it's important enough to me to try.

Quote from: Arch on January 21, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
This is a big problem in the gay community. And some guys intentionally expose themselves to the virus...that's not just a fictional construct.

I'm really enjoying this thread, Simon.

Wow, why would anyone expose themselves intentionally to AIDS? 

Quote from: Edge on January 23, 2013, 10:57:08 AM
The way I see it is we'll age regardless of whether we're on T or not. Do I want to age? Well, to an extent, but to be old? No, but that won't stop it from happening. Do I want to go bald? No and I will have to deal with that if/when it happens. I know there will probably be effects I don't like and effects I want that I don't get. I know there are effects I have to keep an eye out for that are potentially dangerous and I will take steps to keep on top of those as much as I can (like seeing my doctor regularly and keeping her informed). I know that T can't solve some problems like my hands and skeletal structure. I know I may never look like a guy. I know I may look like an ugly guy (although I will try to control what I can such as exercise and eating right). I feel I have to try though. I don't want to go on T to be pretty. I want to go on T in the hopes that one day I'll be able to see myself when I look in the mirror. Even if that never happens, it's important enough to me to try.

Like you said about exercising and eating right, that can go a long way to keeping a younger appearance and level of ability as one ages, I've seen very fit people in their 60s or 70s looking like they're in their 40s. Hair loss is due to genetics, but I've also heard that hair loss and other aging affects (like wrinkles) can also be influenced by poor health. Some others have said that taking T is going to make them more susceptible to going bald and getting a big gut, but by not taking T you're just going to be more susceptible to getting big(ger) hips and thighs, you can still get thin hair (I know quite a number of older ladies sporting wigs), and go through menopause. It's just trading one aging for another, and you can just try to be as healthy as you possibly can to look and feel younger as long as possible.

Like others have mentioned above, there is a mentality in our society of people not keeping up with their health or of believing that medicine/drugs are the answer to everything. There's so many "quick fixes" like diet pills, gastric bypass, the latest ab machine, that people just think are the answer to all of their problems without truly considering the risks involved or really understanding the limits of our medical knowledge and abilities. Like those kids inside mentioned who think they can just manage HIV with taking some pills everyday and life just continues on like normal just shows a complete and absolute naive trust in the abilities of our scientific community, almost as if they think we're living in a Utopian science fiction novel (or movie for the kids who don't read anymore). 

I was bored and dropped in and read the entire thread, it was an interesting conversation, thanks for letting me eavesdrop! T does make some FtM people get hairy in different places and surly can cause baldness. It can add to the aggressiveness level a bit also, but what's interesting to note that other than sex drive, male behavior is only about 10% T driven and 90% learned from the cradle onward. So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together. If you see a guy reach down and touch his crotch several times a day it's either because his dangling modifier is getting scrunched uncomfortably in his underpants or that he's checking to be sure that the zipper of his fly hasn't slid down. It's kind of an unconscious, self-conscious thing they do. It's all learned behavior and doesn't have much of anything to do with T. Watching body language is a great way to get your own act together. Hope this might be helpful info.
~ Shan ~

Quote from: Shantel on January 23, 2013, 09:08:42 PM
I was bored and dropped in and read the entire thread, it was an interesting conversation, thanks for letting me eavesdrop! T does make some FtM people get hairy in different places and surly can cause baldness. It can add to the aggressiveness level a bit also, but what's interesting to note that other than sex drive, male behavior is only about 10% T driven and 90% learned from the cradle onward. So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together. If you see a guy reach down and touch his crotch several times a day it's either because his dangling modifier is getting scrunched uncomfortably in his underpants or that he's checking to be sure that the zipper of his fly hasn't slid down. It's kind of an unconscious, self-conscious thing they do. It's all learned behavior and doesn't have much of anything to do with T. Watching body language is a great way to get your own act together. Hope this might be helpful info.
~ Shan ~

This is very true.

In some ways I think we FTM tend to put so much emphasis on T and that it'll magically change us and we'll just automatically be reads as male with no effort on our part. Just take the shots/gel/cream etc and poof, a man. In my experience, it doesn't work that way. We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space. That's what really helped me pass more. Not JUST T. I just don't believe all our discussion here should be so hrt focused. There is more to transition than that. Of course I'm assuming that people in the FTM forum want to pass, I know that isn't the goal for all of us.

Good point, Darrin. For ages I assumed that masculine behaviour was something that "real" transmen did naturally, without needing to learn -- not necessarily due to T, mind you, but because it seemed like picking up masculine mannerisms should come naturally to someone male. If you feel like a guy, you should learn like a guy, right? But since I learned how to behave in a very feminine manner, I felt like that was proof I wasn't a "true" transman.

But with practice, that stuff is coming along easily enough. Presenting in a masculine manner helps a lot, too -- for example, now that my hair is short, I automatically interact with it by scrubbing it roughly with my palm, instead of delicately twirling a strand between my fingers.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 23, 2013, 09:53:40 PM
In some ways I think we FTM tend to put so much emphasis on T and that it'll magically change us and we'll just automatically be reads as male with no effort on our part. Just take the shots/gel/cream etc and poof, a man. In my experience, it doesn't work that way. We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space.

In the beginning stages I think mannerisms do play a vital role in passing. I remember sitting at the Mall just people watching. I'd look at the way men walked, if they would swing their arms a certain way when walking, the stride, etc. Just natural looking gestures. I am far too white to try to achieve a "strut", lol. I don't have any brothers and my dad was very distant towards me so it was something I had to learn on my own.

I do think with testosterone male mannerisms become more natural looking regardless of what you do, because when you appear as a man physically to the World people don't question your limp wrists or hip swings. If anything people would think you were a gay male if you did that but nobody would think female. Most guys get to that point between 6 months and 2 years on T.

Quote from: Simon on January 24, 2013, 09:25:47 AM

I do think with testosterone male mannerisms become more natural looking regardless of what you do, because when you appear as a man physically to the World people don't question your limp wrists or hip swings. If anything people would think you were a gay male if you did that but nobody would think female.

I dunno about that, although I have an educated eye being a part of the trans world, so naturally I will notice what others wouldn't. Just recently I was waiting to see the doctor and a big fellow with a face full of whiskers and kind of a pear like shape caught my eye as he was standing in front talking to a nurse. He shifted from one foot to another and lifted the other up behind himself like women sometimes do, then shifted to the other foot and did the same thing, his hips swinging either way as he did this. In my mind i had clocked him. We did have an amicable conversation as we waited and of course I would have never said a word about my personal observations. However in a room full of men he would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Shantel, you noticed that because you're attuned to gender markers more than most people. 95% of the public knows little to nothing about trans issues (except for what they have seen in the media) and wouldn't pick up on something like that. Even if they did, if the guy passed physically without question nobody is going to think "oh, a transsexual". They're going to think he is a gay guy or just effeminate.

Well yeah, you're probably right. Anyway I sure don't want to discourage anyone here.

Baldness will suck, sure, but body hair? I been waitin for that since I was thirteen; I ain't shaving a single hair on my body one I'm on T. No, the only thing I'm really worried about with taking T is that it apparently worsens PCOS symptoms, and that *stuff* runs in my family hard. It'll be a long time before I can remove the ovaries, so that will be a serious issue. I'm not really lookin to get cancer.

Quote from: Scoot on January 27, 2013, 01:27:58 PM
Baldness will suck, sure, but body hair? I been waitin for that since I was thirteen; I ain't shaving a single hair on my body one I'm on T. No, the only thing I'm really worried about with taking T is that it apparently worsens PCOS symptoms, and that ->-bleeped-<- runs in my family hard. It'll be a long time before I can remove the ovaries, so that will be a serious issue. I'm not really lookin got get cancer.

If cancer and PCOS run in your family, or you start to show signs of cysts while on testosterone, you're insurance company will likely see a hysterecteroy (with ovary removal) as a necessary surgery, so I really don't see what the problem is, unless you're trying to imply you'd rather keep your female sex organs fully in tact.

Quote from: JasonRX on January 27, 2013, 07:29:21 PM
If cancer and PCOS run in your family, or you start to show signs of cysts while on testosterone, your insurance company will likely see a hysterectomy (with ovary removal) as a necessary surgery, so I really don't see what the problem is, unless you're trying to imply you'd rather keep your female sex organs fully in tact.

>>Implying I have insurance

I've never been to a doctor except in the emergency room, and I've never had health insurance. Sure I'd LIKE to get em taken out, but that won't be an option unless I suddenly become really rich from flipping burgers, which will probably be my occupation for the next ten years as the economy bottoms out. Still, I'll keep that in mind if I ever get wealthy enough for health insurance.

Quote from: Shantel on January 23, 2013, 09:08:42 PM
So if you see a guy sitting with his knees wide apart, it has everything to do with the fact that he never had to wear a dress and was never told that ladies keep their knees together.

I've been sitting this way my whole life, except when my mother pestered me. And, believe me, I was forced to wear dresses and skirts. It's just more comfortable and natural to me. But I suppose there might be an ounce of rebellion in there...

Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 23, 2013, 09:53:40 PM
We DO need to work at it everyday and change our speaking patters, behaviors, and how we take up space.

I think you're discounting all of the trans men who already had these mannerisms and took a lot of crap for it while they were still living as women. Before I transitioned, I decided that I wasn't going to change anything consciously--I was just going to be myself, and if people thought I was gay, then they would be right, and I would just own it. It worked like a charm, except that people don't read me as gay. (That has good points and bad points.)

I did later adjust a couple of things. For example, once my body fat had redistributed, I found a way of standing that doesn't accentuate my hips as much. And I try not to let my voice go up when I laugh. But that's about it...

Quote from: Shantel on January 24, 2013, 09:42:50 AM

I dunno about that, although I have an educated eye being a part of the trans world, so naturally I will notice what others wouldn't. Just recently I was waiting to see the doctor and a big fellow with a face full of whiskers and kind of a pear like shape caught my eye as he was standing in front talking to a nurse. He shifted from one foot to another and lifted the other up behind himself like women sometimes do, then shifted to the other foot and did the same thing, his hips swinging either way as he did this. In my mind i had clocked him. We did have an amicable conversation as we waited and of course I would have never said a word about my personal observations. However in a room full of men he would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Not all men fit the "norm", that doesn't mean they are trans. 

Quote from: Arch on January 27, 2013, 11:29:16 PM
I think you're discounting all of the trans men who already had these mannerisms and took a lot of crap for it while they were still living as women.

Yep.