Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 01:58:03 PM
Why are you so doubtful when so many people report changes? I personally have shrank 5cm and lost 2 shoe sizes, and I have measured myself consistantly for the last 15months.

I'm 26 years on hormones and  have shrunken 1 1/2 cm due to osteopeny, the stadium before osteoporosis.

You'd better see a doctor if you shrank 5cm(!!) in height in only such a short time span.

Shrinking feet.....utter nonsense! 

My shoesize increased with  1 full size over 26 years; I went from shoesize 41 to 42.

This happens because standing and walking on your feet makes them 'spread' and thus 'grow' bigger over the years/decades.

Just like happens to  cismen and ciswomen over the years.

Only some MTF claim their feet have shrunken (2 sizes in 15 months??!?!)

Wishful thinking can lead to a reality disorder...

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 01:58:03 PM
Why are you so doubtful when so many people report changes?

This is the internet, remember?
I haven't read any scientific evidence...and so  can  I report I was born a baby boy with a cup size EE...before HRT....for instance.
Or Santaclause lives on the moon.

Or roses growing in the desert....etc.

But of course I won't claim silly things like that....it could give  some people false hope.

LOL I must admit I have got some reality issues, bearing in mind I know I'm a women but my body doesn't want to see that reality!!

But I have definitely shrunk and lost shoe sizes in 15 months since HRT, so if I'm healthy, have had medicals and I'm found to be in perfect health, how do you explain what has happened? As it is also reported by other M2Fs too, are we all in denial and have wishful thinking and are just creating a common fantasy; or is that what most people call reality, when many people perceive the world in the same way?

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:31:53 PM
LOL I must admit I have got some reality issues, bearing in mind I know I'm a women but my body doesn't want to see that reality!!

But I have definitely shrunk and lost shoe sizes in 15 months since HRT, so if I'm healthy, have had medicals and I'm found to be in perfect health, how do you explain what has happened? As it is also reported by other M2Fs too, are we all in denial and have wishful thinking and are just creating a common fantasy; or is that what most people call reality, when many people perceive the world in the same way?

No scientific evidence....at all.

No one has been bothered enough to do a real study.  The only evidence there appears to be is the repeated reports of it in numerous (not all) m2fs.  However, as it has happened to me and I seem able to measure myself accurately, as can my doctors...I will choose the fact that I have had this happen to me.  I'm sure at some point when someone is bored they will undertake a physiological and biochemical analysis on the effects of HRT on different tissue types. 

Or just to add a extra, my nose has shrunk too,   

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
No one has been bothered enough to do a real study.  The only evidence there appears to be is the repeated reports of it in numerous (not all) m2fs.  However, as it has happened to me and I seem able to measure myself accurately, as can my doctors...I will choose the fact that I have had this happen to me.  I'm sure at some point when someone is bored they will undertake a physiological and biochemical analysis on the effects of HRT on different tissue types. 

Or just to add a extra, my nose has shrunk too,   

Imagine! Don't know your height etc....but in let's say, 30 years or so....you've shrunken so much you'll disappear completely in some years after that!

They'll make a movie about you! The mtf version of 'The curious case of Benjamin Button'! 

.

If we were going to refrain from discussing things unless scientifically proven, things are going to be very dire. The fact is, some people have lived such phenomena, and some have had it measured by their doctor. Can it be explained without actual height loss? Yes, probably. Does it mean you have to treat believing it actually happened as nonsense and be mean to those who think that way? I believe not.

No one said "hey, please recognise height loss as an official effect of HRT". They know very well that whatever happened, it's not proven to be possible. But it doesn't mean they should shut up, hide things or lie because of that. And you have no right to be claiming they imagined all of this and are saying nonsense. Really, I might have cried if it were to me that you'd been so harsh.

Choose your words. If you have to be mean to people of the opposite opinion, then you're doing it wrong. You don't need to insult or discredit to disagree.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 03:46:27 PM
Imagine! Don't know your height etc....but in let's say, 30 years or so....you've shrunken so much you'll disappear completely in some years after that!

Sadly the shrinking has stopped and my height and everything else has remained steady now for nearly 6 months.  I'll settle with the nice transition present that I've been given, especially as my shoe size is now in the average female range, and I have the full range and choice of gorgeous shoes in every shop!   

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 03:46:46 PM
There isn't any bone changes (because it has fused, assuming you're post-puberty), and cartilage isn't bone. Supposedly females being on low T and high E have less cartilage, making their cartilage areas smaller. Males with high T and low E will have more cartilage, making their cartilage areas bigger.
Supposedly HRT would decrease the repair rate for cartilage, so over time there would be a reduction in size.

There are cartilage discs between every bone knob in your spine, if all of those shrink by a millimeter, then 23x1 would make you shrink 2.3cm.

I think we were talking about if hormones could possibly affect your height... not if it makes your head, torso and shoulders appear bigger.
Shrinking isn't necessarily good for everyone, some people want to be tall, others don't want to be shorter than x. If I was 5'5, I wouldn't want to get any shorter, but I'd still want to know if there's a possibility of it, because unpleasant surprises aren't very fun.

Cismen's bony parts are bigger/ thicker than ciswomen's....which means cartilage reduction to a more or less  female range (in such a rate!!!) should be a painful affair.
Not to mention the non shrinking nerves running through the cartilage discs and bone discs. All these nerves would tangle and/or get stuck between the bony discs...on several locations.

That's why osteopororis is so very painful.

No MTF claiming to have shrunken say anything about (back)pain though.

Besides that, shrinking in height only and no shrinkage of head, shoulder and torso size seems to be unflattering to me.....making a MTF unpassable

Just an FYI, I just had a DOT Medical Eval done, and I have very much so, dropped from 5'9.5" to 5'8".  These are professionals, who have measured me in both instances, and I did not slouch, or somehow stand extra tall in either of these measurings.  Say what you want Dahlia, but I'll believe the professionals 100% of the time over you.

I've also shrunk myself out of my former shoe size of 10.5 mens to a... let me check... 9 in mens... and they are a little spacious.

Again, you say wishful thinking...

Well, wishfully think your way out of this conversation if all you're going to do is essentially call us all liars.

The loss in cartilage doesn't necessarily have to be painful, if it doesn't effect a nerve why would it?  The spine naturally becomes compressed during normal waking hours due to gravity, and then decompresses when lying down.  The nerves are built to be flexible to some degree, what they don't appreciate is shear forces across the axon , or how could they tolerate a normal moving vertebrae?  At the end of the day I'm definitely shorter and when I wake up I'm back to my normal height... one reason why you should measure yourself at the same time, ideally when you have just woke up.

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
, especially as my shoe size is now in the average female range, and I have the full range and choice of gorgeous shoes in every shop!   

This is something I only read on the internet/Susan's....no 3d MTF has ever, ever told me something like this....let alone witnessed shrinking MTF feet over such a short period of time....while shoeshopping with a MTF.

BTW: how about the width size of your toenails? Shrunken too?

And ehm, claim like yours can create false hope followed by disappointment with some pre HRT MTF....

Quote from: HeatherR on January 26, 2013, 04:05:59 PM
  Say what you want Dahlia, but I'll believe the professionals 100% of the time over you.

Ask them to write a scientific paper about this.

Then I'll believe these claims.

So far no scientific evidence eh?

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
No one has been bothered enough to do a real study. 

How strange....believe me, scientists and researchers here in Holland would pounce on that IMMEDIATELY....to gain public recognition and a promotion.

Yet so far no scientific news about HRT making MTF and their feet shrink (and how about shrinking handsize btw??) ....and I doubt there will ever be....except on Susan's of course.

This is the internet....yes, it is ;-)

.

Strange I have had other M2Fs in real life confirm what has happened to me.  Just because you haven't met someone that it has happened to doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  Your view of the world must be very limited if you will only take things that you have personally seen.  I'm also not claiming it happens to everyone, as with all this HRT the effects are extremely varied.  But for me one of the unexpected and very welcome consequences was some minor shrinkage.  As for toe nail sizes, no they have not changed; as the most likely affected areas seem to be related to cartilage and other connective tissues, as other people keep saying.

However if you want to think about the dimorphic physical differences between males and females, and the evolutionary reasons for them, you can suggest some ideas.
Firstly Males where traditionally the hunter gathers, the reason why men have better depth perception, larger muscles and a more rugged skeleton.  Females were meant to bear children and look after them.  They remained in a more social situation, in which they developed a very co-dominant brain, lower muscle mass and a smaller more delicate skeleton. 
If you have a larger skeleton and a more evolutionary developed physical body, that knows it is male only from the hormones, surely this body would also increase the mass and strength of the cartilage, and connective tissues as well, to be able to withstand the increase fatigue the male body would receive.  But as these tissues are soft, and are developed by hormones, the change of hormones could in some individuals cause the soft tissue density and mass to decrease. 
Surely that could lead to me now fitting in some lovely shoes and been shorter as a consequence of HRT?  Of course all not proved, but the suggestions that people have given you should indicate there is a real possibility that this has and does happen. I just know that it does sometimes as I've seen it on myself and so have others!!

  You are trying to disprove something by speculation we are saying it has happened, as it has to us. If you don't believe us fine, we are not putting it out there to be peer reviewed, we are just stating consequences of HRT on us personally.

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 04:28:09 PM
Nerves aren't as rigid as steel bars.

No, they aren't....but male spine discs are bigger/thicker than women's....so, shrinking a few cm's cartilage WILL make the (the male length) nerves tangle between the thicker than a woman's spinal discs etc.

Quote
just to show that males do have more cartilage.

They have, and  more bone/thicker bony parts too.

QuoteI doubt there's any study on if HRT decreases cartilage, so there's no sure way to tell if there's a decrease or not.

There isn't any....

And a big, ole honking head is a deadgiveaway btw....ciswomen do have (much) smaller heads/faces/facial proportions than cismen/MTF.

Shrinking feet....but no claims about shrinking hands....how can that be?
Hands are under much less strain than feet because they carry the full bodyweight.

I think, as Dahilia said, there's no evidence (that I know of) that hormones reduce height, fine!
BUT
That doesn't mean it's not true, when people thought the world was flat, for a while there was no proof that it wasn't, that doesn't mean it was flat. Give me hard proof to say you CAN'T shrink. If you want to say "I personally don't think that height can change so easily or so much on hormones because there's no proof" but dont make attacks and attempted ridicule at those who claim it IS possible. Give is your story, your reasoning and your opinion, sure! But dont claim that everyone's lying, being stupid, or is blinded by their W
wishes.

And all pre-ops should realise that YMMV and these results are unlikely or could be impossible

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
Strange I have had other M2Fs in real life confirm what has happened to me.

Sure....I've met MTF claiming to be 100% passable through the internet and later in 3d.

A receding hairline, visible remains of beardgrowth and bodyhair doesn't make one passable....that was only in their heads...

Another one claimed her beardgrowth disappeared completely while on HRT....a thick layer of foundation covered it, it was only in her head.

Yet again: I only believe this if I can read some scientific papers, evidence.