please read before answering
I got to wonder about something.

recently theres been a bit of debatation about a trans media online.
its an blog/artical (not sure actually) and the fuss has been because on the picture, there is a transwoman who clearly dont pass. with chest hair, dark bear shaddows, alot of make up and so.
Many folks have said the text is okay but the picture just seams as a "bad image for transgender people*" (the article where about trans*folks in general not just transexuals)
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Now this made me wonder.

as some people may know (and some won't) I been in the media myself as a trans person. I haven't been that much in the media as other people I know and im pretty fine with that cause im not too found of getting the "posterboy- lets look up to this trans person" kind of attention.
during the time I where in the media a couple of other transfolks where also shown. someone I knew got alot of attention while i'm generally unknown compared. as I back then spoke to a friend of mine about the media she said it where good the media had put the attention on him cause he where more masculine, and in general a more "normal" and typical guy to precenting the ftm population.

this kinda makes me a bit annoyed.
I know im not "the typical male" as he, I dress more femenine, it took me longer to pass than for him, and I dont really do much of what typical guys at my age do, I have my own interst and some of them are rahter femenine like baking or just a bit wierd like dressing up as all kind of stuff..

but dose this make me a bad model for transpeople??
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I just wondering cause this is not really abnormal. if you look in the media who is to show transgender people alot of them who are being seen as "good media" really go after those typical men/woman people who fit the binary very well focusing on how girly/boyish they are.. "oh she liked dolls as a kid and she want to have a boyfriend and wear make up so its so clear she is a girl trapped in a boys body."

the media for transfolks who is non-binary, a bit queer, not as well passing, and so on, seams for me to get less respect, and more hate for not being "good exemples of men/women" and bad posterboys for the trans comunety.

but to keep those out of the media or putting them lower than the other box, arnt we as dicriminating for or own group? only accepting that there is 1 type of transgender folks and not that it the umbrella term as it is, and Do it really help in acceptence?
if people are only used to see typical guys/girls who fit the genderrole 100% and pass without mistake wouldnt that just make it harder to gain acceptence compared to if your just starting pre T and maybe not the most femenine/maculine person on earth?
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I am wondering about those questions, what do you think?

Is it better if the media for transgender is showing people who seams very clear succsesfull male/woman without doubt, to give a good impression of transpeople.

or do you feel the media should be more fluent to show diffrent kind fo transpeople so everyone is invold and that this fluentness will make trans seams more normal.

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Being deathly honest I do understand why people prefern to have the most typical pictures.
many of us want good role models which for alot of us means people who pass well and are succesfull, and we want people to see us like that mixed up with the fact that the cis world generally can be very black and white to understand us and it has to be put out simple, But I also belive that we need diffrent types to gain the best accept, so we arnt building more prejugdes that all transfolks looks the same.

I think that it's good for there to be non-binary people in the media- it shows the public that not all transgender people are trans the same way. It could help people to understand that there are feminine transmen and masculine transwomen. As much as it'd be nice for it to be as simple as show the world people who pass and give ourselves good exposure, it'd be a lie.

Re: the discriminating from our own group- I've noticed that in some communities, the trans population can be extremely discriminating and judgmental considering they probably struggled with being judged themselves. I can't remember where it was, but there was one group of transguys I ran into that were extremely homophobic when it came to other transguys and it startled me that guys who had dealt with judgement themselves decided to go and judge others too, just because they're different than the 'typical' transguy.

People will be people and there's always gonna be someone who doesn't like it :/ Someone always disagrees.

That's a really interesting question.  I apologise for how long this is, I was just thinking aloud and got a bit carried away.  It's a bit generalised, and I don't think that all cis people are transphobic monsters at all, so sorry if it comes across that way.  And obviously I can't speak for all trans people here, it's just what I think would be best for us as a whole.

I think you've got to consider that what would be best for cis people to see and what would be better for trans people to see are two different things.  I think initially it would better for cis people in general to see trans people who fit into the stereotypical gender roles, pass well, and are just like other regular guys; people who grew up playing in the mud and refusing to wear dresses.  Being able to see people who fitted into the traditional gender roles might help some people be less wary of us, and break the stereotype of us as people who just have a fetish/want to spy on people in changing rooms/are trying to invade women's spaces or gain male privilege.  Cis people often don't understand us, and that's why some of them can be against us, because what we don't understand can be scary.  When I tried to come out to my mother last year she said that she didn't understand why I felt like I needed to live my life as a man because she doesn't do things that are stereotypically female, but she's still comfortable as a woman.  If she understood that some people who act like tomboys/femme guys are actually male/female then she might have been more accepting and not just ignored the whole thing.

Of course there's the problem of teaching them that it's okay not to hate pink or bake, or do anything else that is feminine.  I think society is slowly coming around to the idea that it's okay to break these stereotypes of what each gender is doing as the genders are becoming more equal; women are going out to work so men have to do the housework, marriages no longer make the woman the property of the man, and there are plenty of people living on their own, both male and female.  I think in time things will sort themselves out so that it's okay to do, and like whatever you want, and not be considered too masculine or too feminine.  It helps that there are people out there who have the balls to do what they want and not care about anyone else's views (example: http://www.hisblackdress.com/ ) so things are going to move on, and it'll be better for both cis and trans people who are interested in things that aren't "what they're supposed to like".

However, if they were only to show people who fitted into the gender roles it would be harmful for trans people who were questioning their gender identity and their families.  If they only saw people who were fitting into the gender roles would they have the confidence to come out to themselves and their families about being trans?  I'm a pretty masculine guy, so to some extent I don't know what it would feel like, but I'm pretty bad at video games, and sometimes if I'm feeling bad anyway, I feel like I'm less of a man than all the cis people around me because I'm not 10th Prestige on COD and I don't have 3.1 kill-death ratio (mine's something like 0.34 heh...)  Video games aren't a major part of my life though – and I would much rather play Skyrim to Black Ops any day – so I can't imagine what it would be like to be a trans guy who liked things like baking and sewing, and to only see other trans men who hated those things.

In a similar way it's going to be harder for the parents and friends of trans people if the person they're close to doesn't fit into those gender roles, but all the people they see in the media do.  If I was a parent who didn't know anything about trans issues and my child came to me, wearing feminine clothes that they had chosen, and had only done feminine things their whole life and told me that they were trans, and a boy, I wouldn't be very open to the idea that they were actually male.  If I had seen trans people in the TV and they'd been a bit feminine, and had said that they liked female things for whatever reason, then I would be more likely to say, "Oh okay, you're a feminine guy, that's allowed."  So from the point of view of both the parents and trans people it would be better to show a types of trans people on the TV, even if it makes it a little bit harder for them to be accepted by everyone in society.

There are some people who don't pass straight away, even when they're on T, and it would be good to show them that there are trans men who pass, but they're going to think that they're broken or something – I also don't have personal experience there.  Showing them people who also struggle to pass sometimes will help put out the message that it's okay to be a man who doesn't look 100% like a man, but that might also reinforce the stereotype of us just pretending and not being taken seriously.  Cis people might find that it's easier to see us for who we really are if they're used to seeing trans people on the TV who don't look exactly how they're "supposed" to, and less importance will get put on our physical features, and more on who we say we are.  Genderqueer need some sort of visible role model as well I think, otherwise that's going to be a huge bunch of people who aren't represented at all, and are just going to sitting at home wondering what's wrong with them, and thinking that they're the only people who feel the way that they do.

Overall, I think that we need both trans people who fit into the traditional gender roles to help cis people feel more comfortable with the idea of there being men and women who don't have the parts that they expect them to have out there, and show that actually, we're just like them.  In other words, ease them in gently.  It's like boiling a live frog; put it in a pot of boiling water and it jumps out, put in in cold water and heat it up and it doesn't realise, if we can slowly open people's minds then being transgender will no longer be a taboo, it'll be on the same par as some people being green eyed.  And we need trans people who don't fit the gender roles to be role models for people who are questioning their genders, their families, and society in general who are still hung up on what men and women should and shouldn't do.

Aaah, great question and interesting thoughts so far.

Personally, I think it is crucial to for both the public and the trans community to see all sorts of gender expressions. I feel that when we only consider a stereotypical 'successful' MTF or FTM, where the transwoman is feminine and the transman is masculine, we are furthering the tradition of squashing gender down into two narrow little boxes. For example, I'm a pretty effeminate guy, and presenting as such makes me comfortable and is my version of 'success.' I shouldn't be pressured to be more masculine from other transmen or from society.

I agree with Alex that it is definitely more confusing for the general population to wrap their heads around, but I like to think that seeing is believing and exposure to all sorts of gender presentations is necessary to open up those narrow male/female stereotypes.

Quote from: ford on January 27, 2013, 04:35:47 PM
I agree with Alex that it is definitely more confusing for the general population to wrap their heads around, but I like to think that seeing is believing and exposure to all sorts of gender presentations is necessary to open up those narrow male/female stereotypes.

I definitely agree. Non-binary presentations and identities are just as valid as any other. The only way I can think of getting them consistently respected is to gradually give them more visibility.

I don't think it's a bad thing per say but I will say that when people who appear to not follow binary gender roles (like the transwoman you described with a beard and chest hair) are misgendered and not accepted by society they should expect to catch crap on a regular basis. Society hasn't even evolved to the point where they will accept the ones of us that they deem "normal looking" so anything outside of that is going to get even more scrutiny. No, it's not fair but realistically that is just how the World works.

Now trans people who judge each other are ridiculous. I think it goes both ways though. Really masculine transmen sometimes get told they "try to hard" or that they shouldn't be trying to fit into the cis gendered world. Then the feminine transmen get told they should have "remained women" or that they want to look like anime characters and not real men. It's all crap-o-la and the mud slinging needs to stop on both ends.

I think it all boils down to the individual. Some people thrive on attention and want to stand out. The media tends to love those types in general. They make for good tv. Then there are those who want to never be identified as trans and do everything they can to blend in.

I have one rule I follow before I give someone scrutiny. If what they're doing doesn't effect me now or in the future then I couldn't care less what they do. I can only think of one thing that bothers me and that is transmen who show their double incision scars on national television. That could effect me and I don't want that "transman identifier" out there. 

But Simon, it only affects you if you're showing your double incision scars somewhere. Are you reserving that right for yourself?  Devils advocate question.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:36:12 PM
But Simon, it only affects you if you're showing your double incision scars somewhere. Are you reserving that right for yourself?  Devils advocate question.

Devlyn, At the beach, pool, etc is one thing. Showing them on national television is another. Most guys have top surgery to feel comfortable and confident. When the scars become a trans identifier the confidence for many (who don't want to be viewed as trans) will go right out the window. It could also be a safety issue and make transmen a target for transphobic people in society.

Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

I think the scars are probably not understood enough to be common place. I would guess that most people will think its surgery but not know what kind of surgery. If there's a safety issue one is back to rash guards., I'm afraid.

--Jay

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:46:30 PM
Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

My gf has big hands (she is also tall). I have a cis female aunt with an adam's apple. I don't know one cis male with double incision chest scars.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 27, 2013, 08:48:07 PM
I think the scars are probably not understood enough to be common place. I would guess that most people will think its surgery but not know what kind of surgery. If there's a safety issue one is back to rash guards., I'm afraid.

--Jay

Probably not yet but as transmen become more visible to the public it will become better known.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 27, 2013, 08:46:30 PM
Is that different than me having big hands or an Adams's apple?

There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

This will change.

There are growing numbers of cis men who are having top surgery to alleviate their gynaecomastia. The scars are identical to the ones sported by trans men because it's pretty much the same operation.

In fact, I watched a documentary on British TV a couple of weeks ago in which a man had (double incision) top surgery and I thought 'OMG, are they showing a trans man having top surgery?' - but it turned out he was cis and had lost a lot of weight, so he needed help to get rid of his moobs.

Hmmm.... are cis men going to start getting flak for having had top surgery, because people will presume they're trans?

To answer the OP's question - no, I don't think they're bad role models at all; I just think that a binary society doesn't know how to cope with people they can't easily classify.

It all comes down to human tribalism, I'm afraid. The natural size of a tribe is about 30 individuals; if the tribe gets much larger than this, young adults will leave to join other tribes or start up new ones.

This means that we've evolved to cope with about 30 'friends' at a time. We can't really cope with many more (no matter what your Facebook friends list might suggest). Of course, most of us don't live in tribal communities any more; we live in multi-racial, multi-cultural cities of hundreds of thousands (or millions) of people. Plus we have TV, movies & the Internet bringing many more people into our lives. This is way too many individuals for what we've evolved to cope with.

But cope we must, and we do this by taking shortcuts. We stereotype people and group them according to their characteristics. But living in a multi-cultural society of millions means that our 30 groups are very quickly filled up so we find it difficult to accommodate people who don't easily fit in to those groups. I'm not trying to condone it; I'm merely trying to explain it from an anthropological perspective.

I think the solution is to present ourselves as a group, called 'trans', which would include men, women, passers, non-passers, pre-op, post-op, non-op etc. - but presented as a unified whole emphasising what we have in common, rather than our differences. Perhaps the Civil Rights movement can help with that.

Look out for my peer-reviewed paper on this subject, coming soon to a dustbin near you.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 28, 2013, 08:49:01 AM
This will change.

There are growing numbers of cis men who are having top surgery to alleviate their gynaecomastia. The scars are identical to the ones sported by trans men because it's pretty much the same operation.

In fact, I watched a documentary on British TV a couple of weeks ago in which a man had (double incision) top surgery and I thought 'OMG, are they showing a trans man having top surgery?' - but it turned out he was cis and had lost a lot of weight, so he needed help to get rid of his moobs.

Hmmm.... are cis men going to start getting flak for having had top surgery, because people will presume they're trans?

I think I have seen the show. it called obese something something? about fat people trying to lose weight..
one of the guys where pretty unhappy cause even when he had lost alot of fat he still had large man boobs.. so he got the removed..

Quote from: Natkat on January 28, 2013, 10:35:33 AM
I think I have seen the show. it called obese something something? about fat people trying to lose weight..
one of the guys where pretty unhappy cause even when he had lost alot of fat he still had large man boobs.. so he got the removed..

There are loads of shows like that on British TV.

You're right about them being unhappy. I'll be honest with you: initially I felt a bit annoyed and frustrated that cis men are cluttering up the waiting list to get moob surgery for self-inflicted reasons, making us trans guys wait even longer for the surgery we need through no fault of our own. I felt we 'deserved' the surgery more than they did, and that they're making us wait longer than we should.

But watching that show made me think: this cis guy's dysphoria was as real as mine. Granted, he wasn't dysphoric for the same reasons as me... but he didn't feel comfortable in his own body because of those moobs and because of the way society treated him. He'd been binding his chest since losing the weight because he couldn't stand seeing them. I recognised all of that as being just as real a dysphoria as my own. He'd put in the hard work by losing all the weight, so really, he deserved the surgery to resolve his dysphoria, just as much as I deserve to resolve mine.

It made me rethink my attitude towards cis guys using up these resources. It made me more sympathetic.

Quote from: Simon on January 27, 2013, 09:09:06 PM
My gf has big hands (she is also tall). I have a cis female aunt with an adam's apple. I don't know one cis male with double incision chest scars.

Probably not yet but as transmen become more visible to the public it will become better known.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on January 28, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
There are plenty of cis women out there with big hands and/or Adam's apples.  Hardly any cis men with scars similar to double incision.

True, but it seems most cis guys who have had a chest operation are extremely reluctant to show the scar. Most don't want to remove their shirts in public. Anyway, I was mainly pointing out the inequity of not wanting others to show their scars while doing so ones self. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 28, 2013, 11:28:02 AM
True, but it seems most cis guys who have had a chest operation are extremely reluctant to show the scar. Most don't want to remove their shirts in public. Anyway, I was mainly pointing out the inequity of not wanting others to show their scars while doing so ones self. Hugs, Devlyn

It's not an issue of not wanting others to show their scars.  It's an issue of not wanting others to publicize (especially through the media) their scars and WHY they have them.   

It sounds like trying to tell someone else how to live their life, though, and that's wrong.

It sounds like an opinion, and those are never wrong.  HTH.