I was at the store today and the guy said "What will you have ma'am?" (Oh so typical, the best I get is when people don't seem to be able to gender me at all.) Anyway, I said "That wouldn't be ma'am". Wow, was that effective. The guy didn't apologize, but didn't ma'am me again. Nothing feels worse to me than serial ma'aming ,for some reason. The other effective thing was how it made me feel. Even though I realize the interpretation is open (for instance it was probably interpreted that I just don't like the term "ma'am"), it really made me feel good. It gave me confidence and made me feel I was not slighted. Also wonder what other guys here have done that seemed to work on some level.

Being pre-T (one week), I can't just answer in a deep voice "Excuse me?"

I don't ever pass so I don't feel I could say "Yes ma'am?" LOL


--Jay

Good for you.

I hate being ma'am'd. Actually I even know some women who hate it because it makes them feel older (ma'am as opposed to miss).

People don't mean anything by it. I know for people in our situations it's annoying, but really it's just a sign of someone trying to be respectful.

I sometimes wonder how many people I misgendered when I was a waiter. I always used "ma'am and sir" simply because I didn't know their names and used their gender as an identifier of whom I was speaking to.

Good for you =) Even little steps really help to build confidence. I'm very awful at correcting people... I don't even correct my friends when they 'she', 'her'. I really need to work on that lol, but personally I have a very, for lack of a better word 'push-over' personality.  As long as i'm not being assaulted I'm very agreeable, which really isn't very good. I had a ftm friend back in highschool who was so bloody brave. I remember the day he came to school and said "your to call me ____ now. I'm transgendered." He would also interrupt people while they were talking to correct them. Dunno if that's rude or brave lol but I know I could never do it, or at least not right now. I only pass on a fluke (been called Sir twice now! *cheer*) I personally don't feel comfortable correcting people because I don't feel I pass very well at all right now and that kinda ruins my confidence.

In any case, bringing us back on topic, well done! I think the more you can build yourself up to correct people the easier it will be for you when you are in full transition and out. It takes a lot of courage to correct others, good job man!

Honestly, how I deal with being called ma'am is I mentally alter it to where it sounds like "man" in my head. I don't really listen to people out in public in the first place so it's pretty easy to pretend they said man. Although it doens't work so well when it's a female saying it to me, but that usually only happens in the drive thru... dang my voice. Anyways, I say congrats on speaking up! I tend to shy away from speaking up or speaking at all because of my voice. And oh well if he perhaps just though you didn't like being called ma'am, interpret it in whatever way gives confidence because that's what we all lack and need to find whatever we can to boost it.

Congrats, I would've loved to seen his face.

I've never quite done anything like that to being ma'amed or missed, but once someone in a store called me "honey" and I just said "I am not your honey". That term just bothers me (as well as sweetie and dear), unless you're a SO or someone like my grandma, I just find it really irks me when people say that,  especially people who are about the same age as me. 

Well done.

I think that the reluctance a lot of us have to challenging people who misgender us might be down to some internalised transphobia. I can't speak for everyone here (of course) but I certainly learned during my upbringing that it was Not Okay to tell people that I'm a guy. I learned that I'd get ridiculed, punished or even physically hurt for doing so. So we learn to shut our mouths and internalise our pain. Then when some person misgenders us, we clam up & keep that awful sting to ourselves because we don't want to get even more hurt than we already are.

Well, I made a conscious choice to push that pain back to the person who caused it. I'm not the one who started the problem by misgendering a stranger so I shouldn't be the one to feel hurt. So I always gently correct them, usually with humour but always assertively. If they get embarrassed, that's their fault for picking a gender for me without my consent. (Pity my parents didn't get that particular memo).

Life feels so much better if we don't internalise the pain caused by other people.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 07, 2013, 10:04:20 AM
I think that the reluctance a lot of us have to challenging people who misgender us might be down to some internalised transphobia [. . . .] so we learn to shut our mouths and internalise our pain. Then when some person misgenders us, we clam up & keep that awful sting to ourselves because we don't want to get even more hurt than we already are.

This rings so true with me.

Quote
Life feels so much better if we don't internalise the pain caused by other people.

Word.

I never had to deal with ma'am as I dont live in a place who say such "strange things"
back in time, I thought ma'am ment something like "mommie"
and I where like "why is she mom to them all? that slut?"
then I noticed this where a bit unrealistical, so I thought.. "oh its probably some slang for mother, like not a real mother but by saing like Bro" sister* hehe im so smart"

I still dont have a clue about ma'am so if someone called me that I would just be forregianer confussed.
-
anyway the deep voice sound like a cool feedback, I have done so somethimes and people get totally embarrased and feel genderf*ed its kinda funny even when I hate being misgendered.

Ma'am is short for Madam, a very proper and British way of addressing a lady if one happens to live in the Victorian era It's the same way as "Sir" is short for "Mister". Anyways by addressing you are Sir or Ma'am the individual speaking is trying to be polite, sometimes they just get it wrong =)

Though to continue on that, Sir can be used independently but Mister should always be followed by the individuals last name. In the same way, IMO, one could call someone Ma'am but must always use a last name if saying Madam. (But no one says Madam anymore).

Quote from: Natkat on February 07, 2013, 12:13:06 PM
I never had to deal with ma'am as I dont live in a place who say such "strange things"
back in time, I thought ma'am ment something like "mommie"
and I where like "why is she mom to them all? that slut?"
then I noticed this where a bit unrealistical, so I thought.. "oh its probably some slang for mother, like not a real mother but by saing like Bro" sister* hehe im so smart"

I still dont have a clue about ma'am so if someone called me that I would just be forregianer confussed.
-
anyway the deep voice sound like a cool feedback, I have done so somethimes and people get totally embarrased and feel genderf*ed its kinda funny even when I hate being misgendered.

Being a store clerk, I actually try to avoid using ma'am and sir with people. It just seems so impersonal and sounds dumb coming out of my mouth.

Quote from: Sebby on February 07, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
Ma'am is short for Madam, a very proper and British way of addressing a lady if one happens to live in the Victorian era It's the same way as "Sir" is short for "Mister". Anyways by addressing you are Sir or Ma'am the individual speaking is trying to be polite, sometimes they just get it wrong =)

Though to continue on that, Sir can be used independently but Mister should always be followed by the individuals last name. In the same way, IMO, one could call someone Ma'am but must always use a last name if saying Madam. (But no one says Madam anymore).

Strangely though, no one in Britain seems to use "ma'am", ever.  Unless you're talking to your superiors in the military/police above certain the rank of sergeant, where it tends to be pronounced "marm", or to the Queen where it rhymes with "ham", and contrary to the popular belief most people don't get to have a chat with the Queen 

"Sir" is used here though, but only in more formal settings.  It's normally just "mate" or some local word to the same effect, in things like shops, but even then it's not always clear whether they've just got a habit of saying it, and women rarely say anything like that.  It's harder to tell what people are reading you as here compared to the States I think, but that's a blessing in some ways.

I would never say anything like that, even when I'm at work as a waiter.  It both sounds wrong to me, and the few times I've felt like saying, "Excuse me, Sir" to someone I've stopped myself even if they're about eighty and wearing a full suit because you just don't know how they feel inside.

Quote from: Sebby on February 07, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
Ma'am is short for Madam, a very proper and British way of addressing a lady if one happens to live in the Victorian era It's the same way as "Sir" is short for "Mister". Anyways by addressing you are Sir or Ma'am the individual speaking is trying to be polite, sometimes they just get it wrong =)

Though to continue on that, Sir can be used independently but Mister should always be followed by the individuals last name. In the same way, IMO, one could call someone Ma'am but must always use a last name if saying Madam. (But no one says Madam anymore).

Ah okay I never tought about that. I just new it where something polite but it make sense. here we rarely use gender pronouce like mr or mrs anymore, its very old fashion and I think you only gonna see it on a plane ticket and suchs.

if people are to speak politie they use "they" as a genderneutral word speaking to 1 person:
ex if an old lady is going to the buss you could say "would they sit here?"
or an very noble weither could say "what would they like" even if your only by yourself.

maybe they also do so in english somethimes? it sound abit like sheakspire.

Quote from: AlexanderC on February 07, 2013, 02:54:54 PM
Unless you're talking to your superiors in the military/police above certain the rank of sergeant, where it tends to be pronounced "marm", or to the Queen where it rhymes with "ham",

and actually Ham means "him" so maybe there just norwegians

A lot of kids in the US, especially in southern states, are taught to call all adults sir and ma'am.  When they grow up, it just sticks with them.  I was taught to call people ma'am and sir in my JROTC class in high school and I did for a few years.  But now it seems odd.  Starting around college I developed a real problem with authority and now calling people that just makes me feel subservient.  Although I've actually wanted to call my huge, scary, intimidating boss "sir" more as a defense mechanism when he was yelling at me (hold over from my military programs-- someone's yelling at you, you keep answering with "yes sir", "no sir" or "no excuse sir" and they eventually are satisfied and leave you alone) and he HATES it.  God help any poor soul who in a terrified panic calls him sir...  Different people feel differently about it.

I haven't gotten called ma'am in awhile, but I've always hated it.  I got called sir the other day at the barber's.  It feels weird to me, too.  I'd rather neither, but I don't mind sir that much.

I know it is an automatic thing and meant to be polite, but I feel bad when I hear it. I am happy for those of you who have learned how to ignore it, but this worked awesome for me.
He didn't really miss a beat btw. I think that the interpretation of that comment is open. For example, it could mean "I am not a ma'am I am a sir" or "I dislike the term ma'am" or "I am not old enough to be a ma'am" (haha) or.... I doubt he thought that he was actually calling a guy a ma'am. I like that particular response because the interpretation IS open and there is nothing mean about it.

I have a cis friend who, if she someone says "What would you ladies like?" will say "I don't see no ladies." She just really dislikes being called lady.

I actually think the need to say it is somewhat limited. If someone's back is turned, you might have to call them something. But I am standing right there. There wasn't particularly any reason to say "ma'am" except it is a standard thing that is said. It is automatic and unthinking actually.

I started acting a bit confused if someone says "ma'am". A slight pause and then in a somewhat deep voice, "Oh you're talking to *me*?" Don't quite have a deep enough voice to pull that one off.


--Jay

Quote from: AlexanderC on February 07, 2013, 02:54:54 PM
Strangely though, no one in Britain seems to use "ma'am", ever.  Unless you're talking to your superiors in the military/police above certain the rank of sergeant, where it tends to be pronounced "marm", or to the Queen where it rhymes with "ham", and contrary to the popular belief most people don't get to have a chat with the Queen 

"Sir" is used here though, but only in more formal settings.  It's normally just "mate" or some local word to the same effect, in things like shops, but even then it's not always clear whether they've just got a habit of saying it, and women rarely say anything like that.  It's harder to tell what people are reading you as here compared to the States I think, but that's a blessing in some ways.

I would never say anything like that, even when I'm at work as a waiter.  It both sounds wrong to me, and the few times I've felt like saying, "Excuse me, Sir" to someone I've stopped myself even if they're about eighty and wearing a full suit because you just don't know how they feel inside.

Like I said, Victorian era Britain x) Aw and way to crush my dreams, you mean you guys don't sit down for some tea with the queen even day for tea time?! Sadness

Aha on a more serious note though, I personally hate the way "ma'am" sounds it just sounds like a rough word. I dunno lol I don't consider it an attractive word. I prefer "Miss" or "hon"  when addressing someone of the opposite gender. But personally I LOVE "Sir" especially when it's aimed at me. Makes me feel all proper lol.

That's awesome Jay. I know exactly how you feel..I hate the ma'am thing too. I've never mustered the guts to correct anyone, because they're only going by what they see, but gosh darn it I'd like to! Why should they get to make assumptions about my gender. But it's so ingrained. Which reminds me of a story...

I spent a summer training new recruits when I was in the military. I was one of two female trainers, the vast majority were male. The recruits quickly learned to say 'sir' and 'ma'am' each time they opened their mouths, but since there were so many male trainers, they said 'sir' a lot more.

So, often when I was yelling at them they would get flustered (heehee, bless) and they would forget themselves and begin to address me as 'sir'. And then in horror they'd catch themselves, and say 'ma'am'. And it would sounds like 'smam'.

"Do I look like a man to you?" I would roar, in true military fashion. Terrified, the recruit would invariable stutter, 'No, s-ma'am!' You could see the recruit mentally face-palming. "What's that?!" "Ma'am. No MA'AM!" 

Oh, priceless memories. If only they knew. I kinda feel rotten about it now.

Quote from: Devin87 on February 07, 2013, 04:54:43 PM
A lot of kids in the US, especially in southern states, are taught to call all adults sir and ma'am.  When they grow up, it just sticks with them.

This is true. I know when I was living on the southern coast as a cashier, if a child didn't say ma'am or sir, their parents would remind them.

Anyway, like many though, I understand not wanting use ma'am or sir. Partially because it does focus on the gender that is perceived, and it's a very constrictive term. There needs to be some sort of neutral word that would make up for ma'am or sir, instead of the alternative "Hey, you!" version.

Quote from: Johe on February 07, 2013, 07:12:14 PM

Anyway, like many though, I understand not wanting use ma'am or sir. Partially because it does focus on the gender that is perceived, and it's a very constrictive term. There needs to be some sort of neutral word that would make up for ma'am or sir, instead of the alternative "Hey, you!" version.

Yeah I wish. Though actually it is really not usually very necessary, but I agree it can be culturally ingrained. Most ma'ams are sort of reflective. I've had someone ma'am me 10 times in a single 5 minute encounter.

BTW, anyone notice the "relief" or "triumphal" ma'am. You are getting checked out at the register and you are all done and you feel relief as no one has ma'amed you yet. You are sort of happy, as you think that you look pretty good and all. Then the person says almost as an afterthought "thank you very much ma'am". YIKES. It strikes me that the person realizes that you are actually a female and now realizes this (or so they think anyway) so they are very happy to be able to pigeon hole you. At least it's the way it seems to me. I probably am pretty confusing to a lot of folks and some people really hate gender confusion. It makes me happy as it is the best I can do right now. (I'd be happier passing, but it isn't happening right now.)

--Jay

It's interesting, up here I hear "Excuse me" more than "Ma'am" or "Sir" in stores when a clerk it trying to get your attention. Which I suppose it positive, or yah know the retailers come straight up to you and just start by asking it you need help without addressing you gender. I actually don't hear ma'am or sir as much as I thought I did lol. It's interesting how geography affects culture like that.