Quote from: DianaP on February 10, 2013, 10:29:14 PM
Cut military spending, reform the tax code to increase wealthy Americans' taxes slightly, stop hunting down potheads by cutting down the ADA, reform unemployment to a few months in order to increase incentive to go back to work. That's just off the top of my head.

i guess i was hoping for numbers?  but i guess just if we go my military cuts at 250 billion saved and tax the wealthiest at 100% (690 billion) we are at almost $900 billion... then the war on drugs we can save 224 billion?  1.1 trillion... almost at the deficit of 1.4 trillion.... add some unemployment reform, maybe social security, medicade reform?  you could maybe get there?

so i guess a plan like yours could work?  but taxing the rich isn't a moral thing to do... i'm just against using guns to get your way... its not moral to threaten people with violence... you can't change my mind on this.  i will never condone violence, fear, or aggression to get your way. 

Eww gross..

equality is not fairness and vice versa.

Taxes need to go up  for everyone, but most importantly for those who are rich,  inheritance tax needs to be something close to 90%. Religious institutions need to lose their tax exempt status, etc. junk food, liquor, tobacco, recreational drugs need to be taxed higher.

The government needs to grow more efficient and clean in order to pull this off though.

Quote from: monica.soto on February 10, 2013, 09:40:25 PM


keep on dreaming these fluffy Ayn Rand dreams gals.

I'll never get why some people seem so enamored with her philosophy. That being selfless is evil and greed is good.

Quote from: Heather on February 10, 2013, 11:22:36 PM
I'll never get why some people seem so enamored with her philosophy. That being selfless is evil and greed is good.

And up is down and hot is cold and happy is sad.  Yeah...

Quote from: Heather on February 10, 2013, 11:22:36 PM
I'll never get why some people seem so enamored with her philosophy. That being selfless is evil and greed is good.

i was thinking the same about people who say things like this ~ lol... i just think they don't understand the abstract at which she talks about... selfishness is self esteem... helping yourself in turns helps others, etc...

i think its odd that people think they are given a free pass to talk crap about her though... makes me sad that people don't know how to understand what she is really saying and then attack her for it

and she says there is a diffrence between selflessness and altruism... if you can't understand those differences, you can't understand her philosophy

Some of us understand, and reject, her philosophy.  Never trust a philosopher that needs 1000 pages to make their argument.  I know that is being reductionist, I do, but I really don't wanna get into the nitty gritty of Ayn Rand.  It's too frustating.

Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2013, 12:04:16 AM
Some of us understand, and reject, her philosophy.  Never trust a philosopher that needs 1000 pages to make their argument.  I know that is being reductionist, I do, but I really don't wanna get into the nitty gritty of Ayn Rand.  It's too frustating.

makes sense... to truly reject (or understand) her philosophy, you probably need to get to the nitty gritty right?  easiest way to do that is read her books

you have any philosophers you'd like to share with the class while we are talking philosophy?   

never trust a philosophy that needs 1000 pages?  thats just a silly argument... but it makes me wonder how many pages is the bible?! lol

Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2013, 12:04:16 AM
  Never trust a philosopher that needs 1000 pages to make their argument. 

lol ain't that the truth!

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 12:13:02 AM


thats just a silly argument... but it makes me wonder how many pages is the bible?! lol

But the bible is collection of story's told by many different people. Not just one woman rambling on about her views on the world.

Well, we have wandered rather far away from the topic, haven't we?

However, I have been enjoying the conversation.  Robust debate is good for society.  Let's just maintaine civility.

Fair enough?

Let's consider this quotation from James Madison, Federalist #51:

But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.

Quote from: Heather on February 11, 2013, 12:22:29 AM
lol ain't that the truth!But the bible is collection of story's told by many different people. Not just one woman rambling on about her views on the world.

ahh, i take it you've read Atlas then?

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 12:13:02 AM
makes sense... to truly reject (or understand) her philosophy, you probably need to get to the nitty gritty right?  easiest way to do that is read her books

you have any philosophers you'd like to share with the class while we are talking philosophy?   

never trust a philosophy that needs 1000 pages?  thats just a silly argument... but it makes me wonder how many pages is the bible?! lol

I didn't say I haven't ever got into the nitty gritty, just that I don't wanna here.   And I'm not really making an argument, or if I did it was by accident.  Certainly no serious argument.   And no I don't have a philosopher for the class either.   Most of them are too wordy to trust by my standards.  Too much logic + too many words = potential for crazy conclusions.  I'm not sure what the bible has to do with anything?

P.s.  I think I'm always civil 

Quote from: oZma on February 10, 2013, 11:52:06 PM
i was thinking the same about people who say things like this ~ lol... i just think they don't understand the abstract at which she talks about... selfishness is self esteem... helping yourself in turns helps others, etc...

i think its odd that people think they are given a free pass to talk crap about her though... makes me sad that people don't know how to understand what she is really saying and then attack her for it

and she says there is a difference between selflessness and altruism... if you can't understand those differences, you can't understand her philosophy

Atlas Shrugged is set in a dystopian future in which statism and collectivism are considered good things, at least by those in power who benefit from it.  Since the time the novel was written, in the 1950s, we have seen the collapse of real dystopian states, such as those in the former Soviet Bloc, where statism and collectivism utterly failed.  The seizure and redistribution of wealth and property are antithetical to the fundamental principals of natural law - the philosophy upon which the United States were founded.

Rand's vision was prescient, to say the least.

(^ Thank you, Jen ^)

Quote from: kkut on February 11, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
I think you misinterpret her philosophy. 

Who's greedy? Isn't it the government that can never do without and the people who produce the wealth in the first place have to do without?

Who are the greedy? People wanting government to take more from their neighbors or the neighbors who want their neighbors to be left alone?

Someone just said the the government should tax people's estate's 90% when they die? Why? Where does this viewpoint stem from? Why not 100%, why let anyone be free in the first place?

Ayn Rand nearly died under totalitarianism, her family had everything confiscated from them. I think a little effort to understand her view on this is wise. Ayn Rand invokes fear and anger in some people, certainly not me. She doesn't condone the theft of anything from anybody. She understands freedom leads to the greatest prosperity. For this she's hated?

"I dunnoh... maybe it was Utah."      (don't ask)

i think she is hated because she hold people to the highest virtuous standards.  she says people should be good, virtuous beings and those who are unable to be "good" for whatever reason look at her and say "i can't be a good as you think i can be" and dislike her for making that obvious... or at least that's my opinion of why people hate her.

Quote from: kkut on February 11, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
I think you misinterpret her philosophy. 

Who's greedy? Isn't it the government that can never do without and the people who produce the wealth in the first place have to do without?

Who are the greedy? People wanting government to take more from their neighbors or the neighbors who want their neighbors to be left alone?

Someone just said the the government should tax people's estate's 90% when they die? Why? Where does this viewpoint stem from? Why not 100%, why let anyone be free in the first place?

Ayn Rand nearly died under totalitarianism, her family had everything confiscated from them. I think a little effort to understand her view on this is wise. Ayn Rand invokes fear and anger in some people, certainly not me. She doesn't condone the theft of anything from anybody. She understands freedom leads to the greatest prosperity. For this she's hated?

"I dunnoh... maybe it was Utah."      (don't ask)

I don't hate her! But I sure don't buy into her beliefs.

Quote from: kkut on February 11, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
Ayn Rand invokes fear and anger in some people, certainly not me. She doesn't condone the theft of anything from anybody. She understands freedom leads to the greatest prosperity. For this she's hated?

I think she invokes anger in some people for the same reason Karl Marx invokes it in others.  Many of her views are antithetical to the views of a lot of people, myself included.

When you have intelligent people looking at the same thing and coming to different and sometimes opposite conclusions, it can feel frustrating.  This is where anger comes in.  Politics is arguments forever and nobody ever being convinced of anything cause they've already thought everything through.  Gee, that sounds fun.

I'd rather sit on the sidelines and judge.  Ever watching, ever judging.

Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2013, 01:26:05 AM
I think she invokes anger in some people for the same reason Karl Marx invokes it in others.  Many of her views are antithetical to the views of a lot of people, myself included.

care to go into more detail?  i would just love to understand the perspective of someone who really understands Ayn's views and disagrees i am very curious

Quote from: kkut on February 11, 2013, 01:31:03 AM
I didn't mean you, but I've seen people nearly lose their temper when her name is mentioned. It's really odd. Mention the worst tyrants to these people... no reaction, but mention Ayn Rand and all heck breaks loose. It's so odd.

yeah some people are just crazy like that. I've never read Atlas Shrugged I did almost buy it once to see what all the hype was about. I did see a movie a year or two ago based on it. But you know how movies based on books are.

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 01:31:56 AM
care to go into more detail?  i would just love to understand the perspective of someone who really understands Ayn's views and disagrees i am very curious

Let me ask you a question, do you believe that everybody would all have the same worldview if they were properly enlightened?  Sometimes people just disagree on things, and isn't that okay?

I do not believe there is one right way to govern.   i think many approaches could work in the proper setting and proper culture.  If I, personally, had to pick between a philosophy that is basically every person for themselves and one where the government tries to take care of its citizens, imma take the latter.  Though I don't think America is the right culture for that style of government, at least not yet.  It does, however, seem to work for the Scandinavians.

Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2013, 01:49:15 AM
Let me ask you a question, do you believe that everybody would all have the same worldview if they were properly enlightened?  Sometimes people just disagree on things, and isn't that okay?

I do not believe there is one right way to govern.   i think many approaches could work in the proper setting and proper culture.  If I, personally, had to pick between a philosophy that is basically every person for themselves and one where the government tries to take care of its citizens, imma take the latter.  Though I don't think America is the right culture for that style of government, at least not yet.  It does, however, seem to work for the Scandinavians.

the way you write that question is funny... as if there is some cult like enlightenment meeting people need to go to?  i don't imagine that people will agree no... i just would like to know what about her philosophy you disagree with so i can try to understand the opposite perspective. 

and i think many people misunderstand philosophies like libertarianism, anarchy, and even Ayn Rand's objectivism and assume its 'everyman for themselves' while the opposite is true... i think there would be more community and less of "everyman for themselves" the smaller government would be... its possible we would end up working together, instead of trying to raise the others taxes.  its possible, but then again the opposite is possible too.  i think you need to see both sides and make a decision on whether you think people will work together voluntarily, or they won't?  i vote for people working together

everything with me boils down to freedom, freedom to act how i please and freedom from coercion... the state is built on violence and the threat of... i cannot support those who use legislation to pickpocket... even if its for a perceived "greater good"... if it was really for the greater good, people would give willingly (like they do in church)... but since its not all good, they have to use violence, and the threat of to collect their precious taxes.  never will i support this.