Well, people not liking to pay taxes to the govt doesn't mean that the govt isn't good. Besides, churches ask for a lot less, so people don't give it a second thought.

Anywho, I don't think that all greed is good. Can it be? Sure. However, if you look further into it, you'll see that too much greed is bad. If a factory owner wants money so badly that he/she is willing to dispose of waste in a reservoir instead of by using the safer, more expensive method, then the town's water supply gets poisoned. If you work in a job you hate simply to get money to have more stuff, then you'll be miserable.

I think this guy sums it up well. Earn your living doing what you love, not what pays the most.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but there's truly nothing to 'get' about objectivism.

I would say objectivism is a philosophy in the way a tantrum by a child is an argument in a conversation.

Ms. Rand's philosophy is similar to an apologist's version of historical events. An a posteriori argument tailored to make sense of the gilded age's robber baron 'hero' mentality and lay a blueprint of how things happened to be with a weak government reconstructed as the ideal of how things need to be so business can once again flourish.

Quote from: DianaP on February 11, 2013, 03:27:01 PM
I think this guy sums it up well. Earn your living doing what you love, not what pays the most.

great video... find your love, your passion and and you've found your meaning to life, regardless of income :-) unless I'm mistaken, a very objectivist perspective?

Quote from: monica.soto on February 11, 2013, 03:51:35 PM
I don't mean to sound dismissive, but there's truly nothing to 'get' about objectivism.

I would say objectivism is a philosophy in the way a tantrum by a child is an argument in a conversation.

and objectivism, to me, means 'the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness' or in other terms 'rational self interest' :-)

so I got something from objectivism... are you discrediting that?

yes, she defends the Rockefellers and the Carnegies, but so do I... I am thankful for them laying the framework of our country.  what's that quote about capitalism?

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone? gosh and thats a Keynes quote LOL

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 04:25:54 PM
great video... find your love, your passion and and you've found your meaning to life :-) unless I'm misunderstanding, a very objectivist perspective?

Well, I never argued on the matter of objectivism, just greed. I don't think greed is all that great when used in excess.

Quote from: DianaP on February 11, 2013, 04:32:04 PM
Well, I never argued on the matter of objectivism, just greed. I don't think greed is all that great when used in excess.

I'm not saying you were, just showing a parallel :-) and I agree with you about greed... but there are two sides to that coin.  sometimes good, sometimes bad... I just wanted to show that there is  a positive aspect to greed

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 04:32:57 PM
I'm not saying you were, just showing a parallel :-) and I agree with you about greed... but there are two sides to that coin.  sometimes good, sometimes bad... I just wanted to show that there is  a positive aspect to greed

Omg, Aristotle territory here .

Anyway, even I can get behind the idea that there is a positive aspect to greed.  I won't elaborate, just 'cause I'm afraid I'll get pulled into an argument and arguing makes me feel icky .

I am glad you gave your one sentence definition of objectivism though, because I don't think I ever could have come up with one that was snark-free.

Quote from: oZma on February 11, 2013, 04:25:54 PM
and objectivism, to me, means 'the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness' or in other terms 'rational self interest' :-)

so I got something from objectivism... are you discrediting that?

yes, she defends the Rockefellers and the Carnegies, but so do I... I am thankful for them laying the framework of our country.  what's that quote about capitalism?

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone? gosh and thats a Keynes quote LOL

That I think Objectivism is a hack philosophy and tea partiers and libertarians are nothing but economic ignorants paid by the status quo to protect and fight for their economic interests, (aka glorified lobbyists) , doesn't mean I'm some sort of anti-capitalist.

And that quote about "the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness", if you truly believe in it, good for you girl, you deserve to be happy, so let that be your moral purpose.

I believe in individuals and individuality, but their central role to me is nothing more than myth, the role of the hero has a purpose in the development of human society, but is always been embellished and idealized, the truth is different, for example Rockefeller or Carnegie would have been nothing without their close team, without the family who raised them, without the town that helped them in their formative years, the individual relies on the many, and the many rely on the individual, for me no one is more important than the other. I believe in society, I believe in a social contract, I believe we have the moral obligation to pick up the slack for when one of our brothers and/or sisters are unable to.

So whatever, if it works for you use it, if it stops working, you can do something else. That's pragmatism.

Quote from: monica.soto on February 11, 2013, 08:30:25 PM
That I think Objectivism is a hack philosophy and tea partiers and libertarians are nothing but economic ignorants paid by the status quo to protect and fight for their economic interests, (aka glorified lobbyists) , doesn't mean I'm some sort of anti-capitalist.

care to go into more detail? i would love to know why it's a hack philosophy and why i'am an economic ignorant... name calling is easy, let's have a real discussion?

Quote from: kkut on February 11, 2013, 09:13:22 PM
The safety net in this country has turned into the safety hammock.

lol, tis truth... but really a much more sad reality...

is getting off welfare worth getting a job you might get fired from? what if you get fired? you might have to wait a couple months to get back on welfare?  easier and safer to just stay on it.  welfare is a ball and chain to many... it is really sad...

Quote from: oZma on February 12, 2013, 12:33:29 AM
care to go into more detail? i would love to know why it's a hack philosophy and why I'm an economic ignorant... name calling is easy, let's have a real discussion?

Look, in order to truly understand the fallacies,  contradictions and incoherent philosophical statements that make Objectivism a hack philosophy, you have to have a boring background in philosophy, but mainly what is most criticized is what Ms. Rand describes as the nature of existence and the nature of the individual,  But there are simple things one can notice in the incoherence what objectivists state. Rand champions the individual, but not just any individual, just an individuals who conform to her norms and standards, if so can you truly be an individual if you are not following Rand's moral purposes?

Now for economics and finance. all these talks about the debt sound to me like people do not understand basic financial concepts like net present values of borrowed money, the effects of inflation on the value of currency, or the effects of leverage on returns. These are smart people, so I'm not going to believe that they don't understand these things, so I'm going with the option, that they do understand and tell half truths in order to scare the less informed.

Six months ago I might have been an active participant in this conversation, I am no party member although a fiscal conservative and understand the entire spectrum in black and white terms as does kkut and oZma. But this, like religion is in itself so divisive that I prefer to recuse myself rather than piss the progressives off causing a hissy fit and wind up being banned from Susan's. Up until the election I was like one of those comical old curmudgeon's yelling and swearing at the politicians and talking heads on my TV screen. Life's too short, and there is little I can do to change things other than vote my conscience. All the logic and reasoning to include the examples from history won't change closed minds. I do find it disconcerting that those from South American countries argue with such vehemence in favor of the current US administration's abysmal policies when one of the greatest examples in history of how a country, once the most vibrant economy in the western hemisphere can turn to socialism and fail completely as Argentina did. This thread though interesting is much akin to a dog chasing it's own tail.

The thing is, I'm basically living in a country that is a libertarian paradise. It doesn't work.

I'm with ya Auntie Shan on all of that, except that our politics differ.   But that's okay because we can still be friends .  The thing is, I think most people that argue politics know it's pointless.  Surely they have noticed that nobody changes their opinions based on an argument.   I think they just enjoy the mental exercise of it?  Something like that.

Quote from: kkut on February 12, 2013, 09:58:30 AM
Shantel, you are wise 

This thread makes me think of one of my all time favorite quotes:

"The worst derangement of the spirit is to believe things because we want them to be so, not because we have seen them for what they are."
-Jacques Bossuet

I'm also an Independent politically and fiscally conservative. Idealogy can prevent people from seeing the truth. Ignorance may be bliss, but I want no part of it.

I usually try to give people credit and assume their opinions, no matter if I disagree with them, don't come from ignorance.  That just helps me be more zen.

Quote from: monica.soto on February 12, 2013, 10:15:09 AM
Actually, debating with someone who holds different beliefs than you, makes people become further entrenched in their held viewpoints.

The thing is this was a thread about people being hopeful about Obama's second term, but somehow got hijacked along the way, I'm all for civil debates, but as I see it, most of what passes for economics debate this day is nothing but confirmation bias and fear mongering tactics.

It's like global warming part 2, the facts are there, but people think that it has to do with their belief system or their ideology and they can somehow magically change the world by believing hard enough.

Anyhow, people believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts or the truth. 

Actually I think only ever talking to people that agree with you is the thing that causes polarization.  The prob is people com into these arguments, straight from reading their political blogs, pre-polarized and then it can get nasty.  We have fox news and msnbc etc. to blame for the out of control polarization that's going on nowadays, imo.

Dissent is good.  It keeps us all honest.

Quote from: monica.soto on February 12, 2013, 10:15:09 AM


The thing is this was a thread about people being hopeful about Obama's second term, but somehow got hijacked along the way,

I was thinking the same thing the other day. It's like a revolving argument that moves from thread to thread.

Quote from: Heather on February 12, 2013, 10:53:39 AM
I was thinking the same thing the other day. It's like a revolving argument that moves from thread to thread.

I don't believe in thread derailment.  Anything that comes up in a thread is related to the original post because if it wasn't, it wouldn't have come up.  If somebody wants to shift the topic back, then all they have to do is say so, just like in real life.  It's called having a conversation.  They are dynamic things.

Obama's re-election was months ago.  Do we really want to still be talking about that?  No, because we wanna be talking about this, obv, otherwise we wouldn't be.

Quote from: Jen on February 12, 2013, 11:10:31 AM


Obama's re-election was months ago.  Do we really want to still be talking about that?  No, because we wanna be talking about this, obv, otherwise we wouldn't be.

Couldn't you just start up a new thread instead of hijacking a dead one? 

Quote from: Heather on February 12, 2013, 11:50:55 AM
Couldn't you just start up a new thread instead of hijacking a dead one? 

Well, one person's hijacking, is another's saying something that comes to mind in response to something that was said, lol.  Maybe I'm just one of those types that when they see order, hmm, well they wanna just go over and mix and stirrrr.

Quote from: Jen on February 12, 2013, 12:24:40 PM
Well, one person's hijacking, is another's saying something that comes to mind in response to something that was said, lol.  Maybe I'm just one of those types that when they see order, hmm, well they wanna just go over and mix and stirrrr.

The irony in all this is I kinda hijacked this thread from the economic summit it had become. And I have no problem with you wanting to mix and stir the conversation.