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minimum wage

Started by oZma, February 14, 2013, 01:41:34 AM

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oZma

what are your thoughts?

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Zumbagirl

My first job was working in a pizza joint making minimum wage while I was still a college student. Sometimes I use to work at a grocery store during the summer unloading trucks and stocking shelves. Being around pizzas and grinders all the time makes one not a pizza or grinder person. It tools me years before I finally got back into pizza. I used to come home from work full of sweat from working near the hot pizza oven, and smelling like pizza dough. Those were fun days....NOT! The stupid things one will do when young just to have some spare money to buy gas and go out driving or doing something stupid.
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Devlyn

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Elspeth

Apart from some maintenance and repair jobs I held that paid better as summer jobs after high school, I worked as news director and production manager for a small radio station, a summer job that turned into that acting position when the formally trained guy who held the job before I did got fired for drug use, or maybe he got fired because the station manager knew my self-esteem and desperation was profound enough that he could get me for minimum wage, rather than what he was paying the guy who'd gone through college to train in broadcast journalism?

My take is that industry and employers will take every advantage and wedge they can find to reduce costs, even if the net result guts the economy. Henry Ford "overpaid" his workforce for a reason, but somehow, at least in the US, people have forgotten how to do math, and what the inherent advantages are of industrial production jobs versus service sector jobs, in terms of raising material wealth.  Granted, it's far more complex than that, but politics rarely is... it might be wise to explore how much and where those who oppose a nominal bump in the min. wage are spending their money directed at opposing this.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Zumbagirl

Quote from: Elspeth on February 14, 2013, 08:46:10 AM

My take is that industry and employers will take every advantage and wedge they can find to reduce costs, even if the net result guts the economy.

I don't agree with this at all. Let me offer an example. I had 2 open job postings at my company for software architects. Both jobs paid between $100-$120k per year based on experience. Do you want to know how many people applied for the jobs???? Zero. The jobs went unfilled for over a year and I was desperate to get the work done, so I had no choices left. I had to bring in people from India to do the jobs. I was charged $220/hour by an indian consulting firm to fill these jobs. If I had employees I could offer them generous salaries, bonuses, stocks for that kind of money, but I can't find any. Guess who gets to pay the costs of those $220 workers, you the customers in the prices you pay for medical services. So who gets the experience and knowledge,an American worker? No, I couldn't find one. The indian guys had no competition from the US. Who is being hurt more by their own policies now? American workers or the government? The government loves the fact that the Indian guys get to pay social security taxes and income tax and Medicare tax and YET they themselves will never be able to benefit from what they paid into it. The American people get screwed over because no one will be able to have this job nor will they ever now. I was even willing to find a good developer I could train and mentor to become an architect, and you know what I get? More Indians applying for the jobs. How much more generous do you expect employers to become?

People really need to see what the problem looks like from the management side. Our society is literally insane, high paying jobs keep ratcheting up more and more and yet go unfilled. Our society is upside and backwards and that old line of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is going to be seen in the next decade. We printed up trillions in funny money to get ourselves out of debt in the last financial crisis and when gas gets up to $10/gallon then that minimum wage job isn't going to cut it anymore and 50 cent and 1 dollar increases won't work anymore. I'll be just fine, my company will throw me another 50-60k per year and then I won't care if the price has goes up to $15/gallon. In 10 years $100k jobs will be paying $300k to keep up with inflation.

At my company we just did a "retraining" exercise by giving older employees the opportunity to work with newer technologies and become proficient. Some of them couldn't even handle basic navigation on an iPad, an iPad for goodness sakes! Of the 5 people that we retrained 1 turned out to be a definite keeper and the others had skills that were so obsolete that's we had to cut them. I literally had no choice but to hire young college kids, which of course makes things look like age discrimination. I know a few people who have had their jobs and livelihood eliminated because they only concentrated on the job and never looked at which way the winds were blowing.i have worked as a manager for quite a number of years now and have had employees I warned about not keeping the skills refreshed. I can't make them go and do something. I can offer it, offer to pay for it, but if they say no, then I can't do anything.

Sometimes it's really frustrating trying to hire and find good people. In my IT world I have just about given up all hope that I will ever hire an American in the remainder of my life.
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Elspeth

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 14, 2013, 10:05:13 AM
I don't agree with this at all. Let me offer an example. I had 2 open job postings at my company for software architects. Both jobs paid between $100-$120k per year based on experience. Do you want to know how many people applied for the jobs???? Zero. The jobs went unfilled for over a year and I was desperate to get the work done, so I had no choices left. I had to bring in people from India to do the jobs. I was charged $220/hour by an indian consulting firm to fill these jobs. If I had employees I could offer them generous salaries, bonuses, stocks for that kind of money, but I can't find any.

I believe we are talking apples and oranges. Your example is one where a very specific, hard-to-find skill set is needed, and can't be replaced by "faking it." There are jobs like that, and a shortage of workers qualified to fill those positions. I was not referring to jobs where the demand for such workers far exceeds the available supply.

Minimum wage jobs, by definition, are ones that can be filled by practically any breathing body that's capable of showing up on time and staying in place for the allotted hours.

I don't see how jobs that require some skills than many people are incapable of developing is relevant to the macroeconomic case of creating a minimum wage structure and financial system that is not rooted in conditions likely to lead to virtual serfdom for a fairly large subset of the population.

Is it good to develop marketable skills and skills that are in potentially high demand? Yes. But there are many skills and talents that are in far greater supply than there is demand, and in those, without some social artifice,  many people will wind up earning less than it takes to cover costs, and the long-term impact on the economy seems to me self-evident. But it's also a complex issue, and not one I have time or desire to explore in detail, at least not in the setting of a casual discussion forum like this one, especially given how iffy economic theory and research has been for many decades. 

I was also considered an economic analyst of sorts for the US government, not long after that radio job, and there I was being paid the equivalent of an E-5 salary (though I also had full room and board, and benefits that went along with enlistment at that time). What I didn't have was any really formal training in the subject, but I was a quick study, and a fairly careful reader, and my bull->-bleeped-<- sounded very convincing, or at least that's what I took away from some of the glowing notes I got from supervisors and consumers of my reports at the time.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

By the way, to affirm your insights about tech, programming and staffing problems, Dick B, the guy who I keep talking about as a lousy lover, was, at one point, a Cobol programmer. He now does something in insurance.

And he comes to me whenever he has a computer problem, and I find his limited grasp of current tech, languages and scripting tools, etc., just a bit mind-blowing -- also a reason I'm glad I turned down the chance in high school to take a formal Cobol class after I'd run out of math and science courses in the local curriculum.

You don't happen to have any job openings do you? I've been tangentially interested in programming since at least college (I was reading programming books in the 60s or early 70s -- at any rate, it was early puberty, before I managed to get steady access to a mainframe -- that happened in the late 70s, at college, some Honeywell thing with lineprinters and modified teletypes as the main input devices).

The downside for me is that I'm almost entirely self-taught, but I have learned a bit about most of the interesting languages from Fortran, to C++ to Python (would like to learn Ruby). Best thing is I'm adaptable and not much worried about labels or job descriptions. With the right supervision, and some contact with someone who could spot the gaps in my competency, I could probably be a pretty good programmer or at least systems analyst, or in any case a positive contributor to a programming team.

I tend to be able to motivate other people to write javascript userscripts and bookmarklets for free to address missing feature issues on various websites from YouTube to Drawception. Maybe if you have a shortage of domestic people we should talk, because above all I do still have a capacity to learn.

That's an open invitation to anyone else too, since I really do need to be doing something to supplement what I got in the divorce settlement, and my time is becoming far more mine to control, now that my kids are approaching college age. I'd like to stay in New Jersey at least until the youngest is out of high school, but that's only another year. After that I would definitely consider relocation, especially if I could manage to be further along in transition by that point, and could start fresh somewhere that no one is likely to assume my gender as other than female-identified. Would prefer a place, though, with a large and progressive lesbian community that doesn't have a grudge against transwomen or transmen.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Zumbagirl

Quote from: Elspeth on February 14, 2013, 10:41:36 AM
By the way, to affirm your insights about tech, programming and staffing problems, Dick B, the guy who I keep talking about as a lousy lover, was, at one point, a Cobol programmer. He now does something in insurance.

And he comes to me whenever he has a computer problem, and I find his limited grasp of current tech, languages and scripting tools, etc., just a bit mind-blowing -- also a reason I'm glad I turned down the chance in high school to take a formal Cobol class after I'd run out of math and science courses in the local curriculum.

You don't happen to have any job openings do you? I've been tangentially interested in programming since at least college (I was reading programming books in the 60s or early 70s -- at any rate, it was early puberty, before I managed to get steady access to a mainframe -- that happened in the late 70s, at college, some Honeywell thing with lineprinters and modified teletypes as the main input devices).

The downside for me is that I'm almost entirely self-taught, but I have learned a bit about most of the interesting languages from Fortran, to C++ to Python (would like to learn Ruby). Best thing is I'm adaptable and not much worried about labels or job descriptions. With the right supervision, and some contact with someone who could spot the gaps in my competency, I could probably be a pretty good programmer or at least systems analyst, or in any case a positive contributor to a programming team.

I tend to be able to motivate other people to write javascript userscripts and bookmarklets for free to address missing feature issues on various websites from YouTube to Drawception. Maybe if you have a shortage of domestic people we should talk, because above all I do still have a capacity to learn.


There is a job air coming up in the hartford ct area I believe in April. A lot of paces are trying to staff up. The latest trend in IT today is mobile and "bring your own device" (BYOD). I interview people all the time, from the ones who fill up resumes with keywords which turn out to be duds, to candidates that might prove surprising. When I interview here are the things that I look for in candidates: people who can think for themselves, people who can solve problems or think they way through them, people who can learn. Notice that at no time do I mention technology. Those are not qualifications for java or enterprise developers or even entry level. I am looking for people that are worth investing in, who will then turn around and be productive. It is of course IT after all, so i will be looking for pele who have the know how to create algortihms and solve commob problems in IT. The problem right now that all US workers are facing is increasing competition from now green card holding Indian workers. You might be a good match, but for the kind of money I am paying, I can hire an in Indian guy who will be productive literally from day 1. I would hire someone who is self taught as long as they are willing to learn something new.

There is one other way to break into these companies and that is with consulting work. Find a piece of technology, java, .net, database, enterprise, iOS, android, security, cloud computing, something you can demonstrate a skill in and apply. Take some classes, whatever, to get in. You might have to start off lower, but in this world, if you have what it takes you will rise up fast.nonce you are in, learn something else. In IT a 1 trick pony is pretty much obsolete in no more than 5 years.

One of my IT coworkers lives in NJ and works from home. He has a daughter who recently got her masters in music. She has applied to 200 different symphony orchestras and has not had a single response back, almost all were outright denials. She tried teaching and most schools have decimated their music programs nowadays. So where did that leave her? She's the most over qualified person working at a Michaels arts and crafts store.

The really really sad part are the internships. A few years ago you could hire a bunch of kids and give them some experience and maybe some career guidance. It's so regulated now that the only people who show up for internships are kids coming from very wealthy families. So like I said, the rich will get richer, it's guaranteed now, by law.
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oZma

can I have the 120k job? I'm a software Dev! LOL


you say employers will take every opportunity to takes advantage of employees... I say gov takes every opportunity to take advantage of Americans.  the big differences? gov uses guilt, fear, class warfare to divide and conquer and in the end we don't have any voice or choice in their decisions.  employment is voluntary... if an employer screws you over you can leave.  if the gov tries to screw us... all we can do is bend over and take it :-)
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Elspeth

Quote from: oZma on February 14, 2013, 12:21:22 PM
you say employers will take every opportunity to takes advantage of employees... I say gov takes every opportunity to take advantage of Americans.  the big differences? gov uses guilt, fear, class warfare to divide and conquer and in the end we don't have any voice or choice in their decisions.  employment is voluntary... if an employer screws you over you can leave.  if the gov tries to screw us... all we can do is bend over and take it :-)

Government is another institution (and a monopoly or very nearly one in most States) that uses fear and other forms of coercion to transfer power from the many to the few... again, in most cases.

Can't both conditions be true? Power or the illusion of power is a narcotic. People will use many different strategies to get it, expand it, hold onto it.  A more stable society may pit one interest against the other, but it seems to me at this point there's a pretty huge imbalance on all sides of this, mainly against the many.

Against government there are passive resistance strategies that can have a real impact. For the last 20 years or so, despite the fact that I could probably have gone in a direction that would have me earning over $200K, had I chosen that, my disgust for US policy has instead led to my choosing to do volunteer work, live in relative poverty, mainly supported by my ex's mandated support payments, nearly all of which are untaxable, since the payments did not qualify as alimony.  People do have choices... they don't always find the ones that fit their conscience all that attractive, though.  You can quit a job, yes, but unless you plan on being homeless, you have to find some source if income from something, and not always something that's entirely consistent with your conscience.

I probably should have avoided this though, as I see these issues and problems as fairly complex, multivariant equations that no one can usually arrive at an agreement on, even when it comes to the structure of the equation. I find most such conversations, therefore, pointless and boring, unless we turned it into a game development project that someone would pay me for, and pay me well, at this point, considering my own contradictory desires and priorities.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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oZma

Quote from: Elspeth on February 14, 2013, 12:56:43 PM
Government is another institution (and a monopoly or very nearly one in most States) that uses fear and other forms of coercion to transfer power from the many to the few... again, in most cases.

Can't both conditions be true? Power or the illusion of power is a narcotic. People will use many different strategies to get it, expand it, hold onto it.  A more stable society may pit one interest against the other, but it seems to me at this point there's a pretty huge imbalance on all sides of this, mainly against the many.

I'm not saying both are not true... they are! but employment is voluntary... gov coercion is not
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Elspeth

Quote from: oZma on February 14, 2013, 01:00:51 PM
I'm not saying both are not true... they are! but employment is voluntary... gov coercion is not

As long as your definition of voluntary is a fairly loose one, I'd have to agree. But looking at people as populations, I find it hard to defend that particular assumption. With my talents and skill set, I've never found it hard to find decent paying work, (though I also have avoided looking during this latest recesssion, since I still had support payments and other assets to rely on). Others, though, do not necessarily have that luxury or those skills or aptitudes that would give them some degree of autonomy in an essentially bound system.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Zumbagirl

Quote from: oZma on February 14, 2013, 12:21:22 PM
can I have the 120k job? I'm a software Dev! LOL


you say employers will take every opportunity to takes advantage of employees... I say gov takes every opportunity to take advantage of Americans.  the big differences? gov uses guilt, fear, class warfare to divide and conquer and in the end we don't have any voice or choice in their decisions.  employment is voluntary... if an employer screws you over you can leave.  if the gov tries to screw us... all we can do is bend over and take it :-)

Both positions were on dice and careerbuilder and not a single person applied. Where were you a year ago? I just finished reading an article about raising the minimum wage. The argument is so damn silly. If a big Mac meal is $6 today and the labor is $8 an hour to make it, then it will be $7 soon once wages go up. The $9 an hour job is not going to look so good anymore once the price of everything else goes up along with it, food, gas, phone service, etc. Changes in minimum wages benefit only 1 group of people, labor unions, specifically government based unions. $9 jobs should be starting points for people's lives not the end of the job road. But there will always be a bottom 50% no matter what we do, who will never succeed. What do we do? Even if you could give them free college degrees only a tiny fraction will end up succeeding. Why not just give everyone a free medical degree and $200k per year end everyone would be a doctor?

I have no problem with car makers and laborers getting more money, which will also be a direct result but if anyone thinks the cost of cars is going to go down, that would be a mistake. So now this $9 person now has to borrow more money to own a car, and since it costs more, pay more in insurance and taxes to keep it on the road. How long can we let this spiral go on. Every time you raise the floor an inch, the ceiling goes up a foot. So if the poor guy gets a buck, the rich guy gets 10. There is no way to tax or spend a way out of this problem. Since the $9 person cannot afford a house we can lend them money as a high risk pool so that they are borrowing near 100% with no real ownership for 20 years. Finally when that $9 person turns 65 and the top 5% earners are averaging $500k per year, the that same person will be living in utter squalor.
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oZma

Quote from: Elspeth on February 14, 2013, 01:09:31 PM
As long as your definition of voluntary is a fairly loose one, I'd have to agree. But looking at people as populations, I find it hard to defend that particular assumption. With my talents and skill set, I've never found it hard to find decent paying work, (though I also have avoided looking during this latest recesssion, since I still had support payments and other assets to rely on). Others, though, do not necessarily have that luxury or those skills or aptitudes that would give them some degree of autonomy in an essentially bound system.

granted... everybody needs a job, in theory right? it's like saying if ALL employers screwed and took advantage and we all needed jobs it would be voluntary yes but we are still being exploited.

but since we have a somewhat free market of jobs, employers fight for us to a certain extent and compete with each other to provide us with nice working conditions and pay :-)

and yes, it's easy for me to say this sitting in an office making a real nice living... because I got a good education... not everyone has my same opportunities I know.  this argument however leads us to education... gov schools, parenting, etc... which is another topic all together and I will start by saying a very ugly one... a very sad one :-(
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oZma

Quote from: kkut on February 14, 2013, 01:17:35 PM
There's one thing, we can leave ...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/should-you-renounce-your-citizenship-144048875.html

but to be free, to renounce your citizenship, theres is a tax for that LOL... sounds like slavery to me

plus, where do you go? another slave master?  when someone hijacks a plane, do you let them fly it into a building? do you do something about it, or jump? you can always jump LOL
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Elspeth

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 14, 2013, 11:41:08 AM
The really really sad part are the internships. A few years ago you could hire a bunch of kids and give them some experience and maybe some career guidance. It's so regulated now that the only people who show up for internships are kids coming from very wealthy families. So like I said, the rich will get richer, it's guaranteed now, by law.

I couldn't agree with you more. Both my son and daughter have (in my daughter's case, based on her sophomore PSAT is likely to have) an 800 Math SAT score and an intuitive understanding of and active interest in math concepts that is fairly unusual and usually elicits surprise and admiration from those teachers who recognize that as an asset. Some of that is my ex, but some of it is also me.

My son enters Drexel this fall to study 3D animation but he also did well on the calc AP, and I keep hoping, now that he's out of brain-dead secondary schools with programming classes that had very little sense to them -- his last one was mainly grounded in Java (not javascript)) -- but I'm hoping once he's in a better, and more practically-focused program like Drexel's that he will begin to understand and take an interest in the algorithmic side of that area, though for now he's much more interested in things like character design.

I am nearly allergic to self promotion, but I think some of the things you say you're looking for are traits that I have, such as a desire to learn new things and approach problems without prejudice about platforms, tools or a particular language that may be out of vogue within 6 months. I've always been more interested in finding ways to approach a puzzle and solve it, than in which tool or language the execution was done in. Some of the deficit, of course, is that, apart from some volunteer contributions to spotting and analyzing problems with video rendering, and site vulnerabilities at YouTube, as one of Google's volunteer TCs, I have relatively little hands on experience working with an IT team, and a lot of it has been at a distance. However, before children I was managing to make a pretty good income as one of the very early telecommuters -- I was telecommuting with one of the more obscure CP/M machines for the early years of that, but also traveling a lot on various research trips.

On the other hand, if what I've been hearing in reports lately about shifting thinking is true, I do have an understanding of US culture and markets, that tend to translate into design priorities, that might be something many of those Indian coders lack.  Please feel free to IM me if you think of anyone I should try to contact, or have further suggestions. Given my basic competence with general programming principles, I've tended to avoid most classes, because only 5 or 10 percent of want they are teaching is likely to be something I didn't already know, and for a work project, learning that missing percent is going to be something specific to the project itself, more likely than the language or platform or other incidental details. 

I tend to be more shy and cautious than I want to be, of course, given my current, androgynous, but pre-transition state, so I will be looking for someplace where trans identity is less likely to become an issue, which means I'd prefer to look for direct personal contacts, rather than blind job applications.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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oZma

Quote from: kkut on February 14, 2013, 01:43:33 PM
I agree but if 51% of the population supports flying the plane into the building...

and now we have reached the failure of democracy
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Elspeth

Quote from: kkut on February 14, 2013, 01:43:33 PM
I agree but if 51% of the population supports flying the plane into the building, leaving may be one's only option. A lousy option for sure. I'm trying to figure out if people haven't figured out what's planned for this country, or if they're giving this four more years and plan to change direction when it doesn't work.

This country plans? That's commie talk. Part of what at one time was considered the genius of the American system of government, was that it institutionalized stasis... Until something garnered overwhelming support and approached some near consensus, in legislative and executive areas, at least there was rarely much change at all. A lot of that got corrupted, though, with the rise of the national security state, and the executive branch arrogating powers that the legislative and judicial branches were hesitant to oppose, or unable to do, because much of what was done by executive order was justified in near secrecy, with a "national security" blanket as justification and insulation from full  and open public debate and discussion, even if much of what was supposedly secret turned out to be in the open due to strategic and/or whistleblower disclosures.

Frankly, I don't think the country has had much of a direction since Eisenhower warned about this, over 53 years ago.
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Elspeth

Quote from: kkut on February 14, 2013, 04:06:13 PM
"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
― Alexis de Tocqueville

De Tocqueville never met Edward Bernays. (I used to chat with Bernays' daughter, though).
"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb, we are bound to others. Past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."
- Sonmi-451 in Cloud Atlas
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Flan

Going back to the original question about "minimum wage" I find three questions that can be derived from it:

What is the acceptable minimum for a position with low skill requirement? Stocking shelves or fulfilling orders requires very little skill and a certain amount of repetitive labor but keeps business running.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2003/11/art1full.pdf

How valued is the skill used in the first place? What is the real difference between types of labor?
https://mises.org/daily/5612/The-Value-of-Labor

If we don't value low skill or labor jobs, as a result of having a position that is valued more, what about those who do choose a job that is less "valued"? Shouldn't they be able to live within a certain means?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/8300471/18-40-an-hour-needed-for-living-wage
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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