Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 15, 2013, 02:20:44 AM
Erm, derail much? 

What's amusing is being reminded of who and what St Jerome was to the topic, by a person that is not one iota interested in religion in the religious sense of the word

Historical revisionism is to me, selectively remembering the past, mine, yours, theirs. For instance, a lot of what we know of Christ was written basically decades after he was gone. Some will even claim the man never even existed.

I can say the same about the man called Leslie Robert to keep it in context with the thread. A lot of my recollections, are coming in now decades after they happened, and when the shrink asks questions like 'what are your earliest memories?' sometimes I want to tell him past a week ago why waste time at all trying to remember, as I rarely can remember at all what I did the year before let alone when I was 5.
I am almost positive some of my memories are actually fragments of bull I have forgotten was deliberate blarney at the time just to impress friends.

I am trying to get the wife to contribute to the forum here mainly as once something is posted on the internet, it becomes almost permanent to some extent. There is no 'oh you didn't say that' to some extent. Her memory sucks. Not that mine is great.

But I really loathe selective memory and the passion some will go to in selectively quoting the past too. The bible's biggest contribution to society comes in the form of massively out of context quotes all based on the idea that if a sentence was written in the book it can never fail to have meaning regardless of the context it was taken in. Most quotes fail the moment you read what came before or what came after the quote.

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 15, 2013, 02:20:44 AM
Erm, derail much? 

Sorry, but what Lesley Roberta said is relevant to why this came up in this context. The play is all about revising histories, and while the focus point is someone who might seem irrelevant to most people, especially those who think that they are beyond religion, his impact on at least European culture, and ideas about sex and sexual identity is fairly profound. I don't tend to pick subjects that are personally distant from my own concerns, and at least part of why I have not pressed harder to promote the piece and see it produced has to do with my feeling that I would really need to be fully out and ready to discuss my own identity openly as part of promoting the piece.

Most of the play centers on selective memory, and how 4 different people, coming from their own particular experiences, interpret and come to very different understandings of some historical figures who are at the same time thought to be well-documented, and yet wind up raising all kinds of puzzles and questions, on which someone in our own culture, including someone with no interest in religion, per se, can project their own concerns, experiences, and come to realize that Jerome and others were much of the basis for a lot of transphobia, homophobia, and anxiety about bodies in general that are highly relevant to both this forum and this thread.

My apologies if I didn't make that explicitly obvious.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 15, 2013, 09:49:50 AM
My apologies if I didn't make that explicitly obvious.

Clear like mud i'm afraid 

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 15, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
Clear like mud i'm afraid 

Probably part of the reason the play's unfinished too, though it would be clearer if you'd read it, or been to one of the readings.

The dialogue and some of the interactions in the play itself are very similar to this conversation and other conversations I've had on the subject... or they involve private encounters between the characters, that deal with some very similar issues. You kind of have to be there, and if you're not one of the rare people who can read a script and visualize it, or be at a reading with skilled actors, it's probably a doomed exercise to try to describe it.

I totally understand why you may prefer not to but, perhaps you could post a few excerpts as they pertain to this thread?  It does sound very interesting now that the connection is more apparent

Thanks for the topic thread Rowan Rue,

As part of my transition I am revisiting very early family history with my 12 brothers and sisters.  Now if anyone can, with any certainty, accurately recall verbatim conversations and events of their childhood then they deserve the "photographic memory award."  Memories often contain conflated people and events.  Listening to a dozen different perspectives about our shared history may be revealing but in the end what does it matter?   I too wondered if I was making this stuff up but, the past is gone and done, the future a dream.  It's our current lives that we have any real choice about.
I completely repressed episodes in my childhood when my sister called me Tessa and treated me as her sister.  Not long ago my sister and I spoke and I said I could now recall "a couple times when that happened."  She replied "oh honey we did that for years."
We were born this way and now we get to play our own way.

Hugs,
Tessa James

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 16, 2013, 02:11:22 PM
I totally understand why you may prefer not to but, perhaps you could post a few excerpts as they pertain to this thread?  It does sound very interesting now that the connection is more apparent

At this point, at least, it's the gestalt of the play that does this... hopefully it's more than the sum of its parts.  Still, I'll take a look and see if I think it will convey anything in excerpt form... the problem being, it's as much about what isn't said (or at least is never said explicitly), but is present in subtext, based on actions and reactions that have led up to each moment, and the knowledge (hopefully) that the audience member has, since they are privy to the whole story in ways that none of the individual characters (possibly with the exception of Paulie/Paula) happen to be.

It will take some reformatting to allow it to display in proper playscript format... (I usually only distribute it to readers in PDF format at this point). 

I'll give it a look-see and get back on this.

This topic is spot on for me. I spent years thinking that my issues where causing me to make up things in my head like being trans. but i finally realized just recently actually that it was to a large extent the other way round. Being trans and trying to deny it then trying to compensate by acting in a certain way, was actually causing most of my issues. Takes a long time to come to terms with this but when you do its like a huge weight is lifted. Of course it throws up a complete set of other problems to overcome but hey thats life.

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 16, 2013, 02:11:22 PM
I totally understand why you may prefer not to but, perhaps you could post a few excerpts as they pertain to this thread?  It does sound very interesting now that the connection is more apparent

Rather that further distract, here are links to PDFs containing the first scene (for context) and the final scene. Please let me know whether these leave you more or less confused.   There are still a few typos scattered in there, and please keep in mind, despite how long I've had this in the works, I still consider it a draft at present.

First scene - A Stranger Here Myself

Final scene - A Stranger Here Myself

Anyone interested in reading the full script, just ask. There's at least one of the more recent drafts also available there. But I'd prefer to share those links with only those who think they might be willing to read and comment on the entire play, and of course, I'd like to keep that somewhat limited, rather than have the script floating out entirely open to the public, as long as it remains a draft version.

I find it fascinating how quickly after coming out to myself I started to see signs and connections in my own history. Things that on their own probably wouldn't mean anything, but taken in aggregate start to tell a different story.
For example, when I was in high school, I had a guidance counselor point out that I tended to use softer/indirect language when speaking. It didn't click at the time, but my phrasing tended to be more typical of women.
Whenever there would be arguments between the guys and girls, I tended to agree with the girls far more frequently than the guys.
Even some dreams I've had.
Lots if stuff like that.
Didn't think much of them at the time, but looking back, I can totally see patterns in my past feelings and behavior.

Quote from: Tessa James on February 16, 2013, 02:44:46 PM
I completely repressed episodes in my childhood when my sister called me Tessa and treated me as her sister.  Not long ago my sister and I spoke and I said I could now recall "a couple times when that happened."  She replied "oh honey we did that for years."

So strange what we do and don't remember!  As you say, in the end it's what works to allow us to move forward in our lives that matters but still, it's nice when other peoples memories confirm our own beliefs! 

Quote from: Shannon1979 on February 16, 2013, 05:58:00 PM
I spent years thinking that my issues where causing me to make up things in my head like being trans. but i finally realized just recently actually that it was to a large extent the other way round. Being trans and trying to deny it then trying to compensate by acting in a certain way, was actually causing most of my issues.

This is exactly where I am.  I spent so long trying to make my mothers fight with cancer the cause of my own emotional troubles that I think it really kept my blinded to actual issue of my being trans.  And yes, once I accepted that there was a real and present cause of my unhappiness everything made so much more sense.  There are still hardships to be overcome, but doing so is much, much esier whn you're addressing the real problem

Quote from: Elspeth on February 16, 2013, 09:05:02 PM
Rather that further distract, here are links to PDFs containing the first scene (for context) and the final scene. Please let me know whether these leave you more or less confused.  

Thanks Elspeth!  I'll read these tomorrow when I'm not slightly drunk

Quote from: JenSquid on February 16, 2013, 11:09:03 PM
I find it fascinating how quickly after coming out to myself I started to see signs and connections in my own history.

Right?! having spent such a long time looking for answers "where the light was good" rather than where the truth lay, I was kinda surprised how much sense things started to make once I identified the real root of the problem.
Who knew it could be something as "simple" as being in the wrong body!

I definitely struggled with this, I used to be into feminism because I hated the way I was treated as a girl. I would always rationalize things to make it okay for me to be a girl and just different, etc.

I ran into the whole "internalized misogyny" concept. Which is legitimate for some people (actual women) but it really messed me up for a while, because everything a ftm person feels can be explained by it. it's fairly common for ftm people to be targeted for "having internalized misogyny". I felt evil for a while because I was convinced I was really a self-hating woman who wanted to destroy myself.

But all of that is really rooted in ignorance. Feminist theory, in deconstructing the gender roles, has started to intrude on transgender topics. A lot of people just run into these new "empowering" labels and create a place for themselves under the "trans* umbrella". This concept actually vilifies people with dysphoria as "enforcing the binary", effectively alienating those who fall under the scientific definition of transgender. They proclaim to change genders on a whim, reducing it completely to the social aspect, actively working to discredit the theory of natural gender.

This is a problem, and yes, there are people making misinformed decisions about their lives. But once I started to question and distance myself from those anything-goes places and look at my own life experiences and others like me who disagree with that part of the movement I was able to be more sure of myself. There is really that core personality in me that is just too hardwired to question, and has never in my life been able to change with the way I interact or what clothes I wear, or what I think of the gender roles.

I know someone will read this and think, "some fool trying to out-special the other snowflakes." People will make so many excuses for dealing with scary things, but the truth will always come through in the end even if it's an ugly truth. There's a lot of fear and confusion in these changing times but we've come so far in history I believe we'll eventually make it to clarity for everyone. Incorporating new information is crucial to the process of science, you're absolutely right, the misapplication of new information is exactly what holds back transgendered people in the world today.

I should really start a blog but..
I guess this is still related to why I started this thread so I'll add it on.
Sorry if it's not as interesting as I seem to think it is. I've only gotten about three hours of nightmare filled sleep so the old brain's not to hot right now.
Anyway
Last night, after I started cutting again I tweeted this.

When I cut, I trade psychic damage for physical, because I'm angry and don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I know I won't fight back.

shortly thereafter a friend pinged me on facebook and we had the following conversation which I'll post here.  It's slightly edited.



Friend
Are you ok?
I was going to reply to your tweet, but would rather do it here, where people wouldn't see...

Rowan
Yeah, things have been better
Self harming days generally rank towards the bottom

Friend
it's true


Rowan
I've found that people are very disinclined to listen to, or tolerate another persons anger.
Which is unfortunate because when people start screaming it tends to indicate that they aren't feeling heard

That their boundaries are in a mess and they need to be afforded the space to rebuild them
Yeah,

Friend
yes... anger has to be channelled. It's not so good when it's channelled towards the self. But that seems to be the way of things in this culture (and, um, that culture too I guess) - anger is seen as the individual's problem, and screaming isn't seen as a symptom that someone needs support

the problem with bad habits is that they work; that's why they become habits, after all


Friend
are you managing to get some space>?


Rowan
No.

And I honestly haven't been able to tell for a very long time if my anger is reasonable
That is, it's been pushed back down so often that what I'm angry about gets all confused


Friend
oh hon... well, what matters is not whether your anger is reasonable, but that it exists, so it's something that needs working through
I think it helps to start with the feeling first, and leave the logic until later - starting with the logic seems to make the feelings worse, in my experience

Rowan
Yeah
I don't know where to start


Friend
when I fall back on bad habits, part of it has to do with needing to look after myself, and feeling completely unjustified in needing to - and at least if there is a physical problem then I can start to be kind to myself, at least physically if not emotionally

Rowan
I don't trust my own mind any more

Friend
leave it aside for a little while
just trust your feelings - don't try to shape them into any kind of meaning; just explore them, and don't be afraid to explore them. You have to know them before you can know anything else.


Rowan
I don't know how to do that

Friend
but, yeah, it takes a bit of time and a bit of space.
for me, strangely, walking and showering are the two things that seem to give me time to figure myself out

Rowan
It's just such a mess in there

Friend
are you working? I don't even know what time it is there! but do you have any free time today? Or could you even call in sick? Getting yourself through a day like this is just as important as getting yourself through, like, a cold or something


Rowan
It's 5:30am

Friend
holy ->-bleeped-<-!
go somewhere beautiful to watch the sun rise
you've got about an hour and a half, I reckon


Rowan
I've actually had the worst head cold for a couple of days now

Friend
and if you can take the rest of the day off, so much the better


Rowan
That would be nice. It's going to be a long grey dawn though.

And it's February cold and damp out there so I think I'll pass in the getting out if bed.

Friend
that's probably very wise, given the head cold



Friend
if there was one thing you could do right now - however crazy or mundane - that would make you feel better, what would it be?
take a while to answer; don't get stressed if you don't know straight away


Rowan
Ok

Friend
and if you want to talk/write/vent/chat more, let me know x
I haven't told ANYONE about self-harming - except the boyfriend, obviously; it's hard to hide - but not even Ali knows. So it's kind of good to talk about it.


Rowan
Yeah, people just get scared,
But at least they don't yell back.
Usually


Friend
in my case, it's more that I feel kind of ashamed. My family's default response to everything is "get a grip" - which, ironically, was probably the catalyst for it all. It kind of allows me to be a very high-functioning crazy person.
In my case, yelling is always preferable - but I'm a hot-headed aries! It's the quiet I can't stand.

Rowan
Did you see/read the cloud atlas?

Friend
nope, neither read nor seen it, but it looks really interesting!


Rowan
This conversation is feeling kind of cloud atlas

Friend
how so?


Rowan
It's weird, but of of all the people who know me from back home,
You might know me better now than anyone else.
Something about shared history without much
What's the word

Friend
naw  I just know some stuff about you. It's the fact we didn't talk much back then that makes it easier to talk now


Rowan
Preconceptions
It's so hard to deal with the notion that my sister and my dad have an experience if me that goes against who I think I am

Friend
you know, their experience of you goes much deeper than that. It might feel like everything is changing, but a lot of what is changing is the outward stuff, about how you relate to the world. People who have known you all your life might take a while to adjust to that, but they still know *you*; you haven't lost who you've been all these years, just because you've found a better sense of yourself more recently


Rowan
It doesn't feel like everything is changeling to me though.
But it does to them
And it makes me feel like I'm making things up
That I can't trust my own sense if self

Friend
unfortunately, you can't ask people to deal with things in a way that makes it easier for you; you can only remind yourself not to take their issues personally
you need to draw a line between what you feel and what others feel - or what you think others feel


Rowan
That's the problem, if I do that then I have no reference point for me! Any idea I have if who I am becomes completely internal, a lie.

Friend
that suggests you define yourself entirely in relation to other people and other people's perceptions of you
who you are *is* completely internal; it becomes external when you express it outwardly. But there's nothing wrong in taking time to get to know & build up your sense of self


Rowan
What use is a completely subjective sense of self?


Friend
eh, if you take it far enough, there's nothing in life that *isn't* subjective...
what use is an objective sense of self?


Rowan
Illusion of the self and all that
Stupid ->-bleeped-<-ing Buddha
Can you see how having an internal sense of self that doesn't even conform to ones own body can be very existentially scary?

Friend
very

but if you're defining yourself by how others see you, it's no wonder you feel like you need space
what things make you feel more like you?


Rowan
Huh, I suppose so...
I don't know
I feel like an actor ego woke up and realized their whole life had been a role, and couldn't remember who they were before.
I guess I'm hoping there's a new script in the mail.

Friend
it's not in the mail; you're going to have to write it yourself
ahh I love metaphors...


Rowan
What does make me feel more like me are the little moments when i see a girl in the mirror
She looks like me

Friend
and what says "girl" to you?
what I mean is - is there something you could do, today, to give yourself a boost? Like try on some clothes, or (I don't know) get a manicure?


Rowan
Well, that's the hormones working, slowly changing my physical appearance

Friend
but there must be some things you can do that bring your inner sense of self a little more to the surface...

Rowan
Yeah, I have to remember to take time to put in eyeshadow because it makes my day so much easier.

Friend
like that! cool
but something more
something you can do to nurture yourself


Rowan
My wife gets kinda frustrated with me if I spend too much time doing makeup and stuff

Friend
hahaha that makes you SUCH a typical girl!


Rowan
She doesn't really understand what it's like if I don't though..

Friend
she doesn't have to; all you need to do is insist on doing it, because this is who you are now
that might sound harsh, but ultimately, the only little bit of the word you have control over is yourself
but it's amazing how you can shape the rest of the world if you manage your little bit of it well


Rowan
It's more about the amount if time i spend

Friend
K hates me waking up early to spend half an hour eating breakfast every morning


Rowan
She's really bad at taking time for herself and gets resentful when I take time for me

Friend
I don't care; my breakfast is non-negotiable


Rowan
Never negotiate over breakfast!
I'm tweeting that

Friend
the thing is, if you are firm about what you need, people eventually get over it and start to respect it
but you have to hold your ground for a while, which is easier said than done
yeah, breakfast is sacred time


Rowan
Yeah, this has helped me understand why I need that.
Which at least makes it easier to explain.
It 's funny, my wife does all this modeling work, but takes almost zero time for herself on a day to day basis


Friend
yeah
the thing is, you're the only person who can know what you need. No-one else can know. Some people can make an educated guess  but you should never be afraid to ask for what you need.


Rowan
Thanks, I think I feel a little better

Friend
that's why I put up with K's crazy career, as well; it's not that I'm amazingly impressed by aid work - it's good work, but it has its grey areas. But if he didn't do this, he wouldn't be *him*.
me too, actually
thanks! x


Rowan
Yay!
Not sure that I feel any less crazy, but definitely a bit happier

Friend
definitely
just remember to spend more time doing things that make you feel more like you


Rowan
Think I'll try for a couple of hours sleep before I gave to get up and go to my actual therapists appointment!

Good friend you got there, Rowan. Listen to her!

"Breakfast is non-negotiable." There's profundity in that somehow.

Truly, thank you for sharing that. Your partner's issues are her own... it's very hard to cope with someone when they leap to conclusions about what you need. And knowing yourself is really not a trivial thing... many never manage to do it at all. Seems to me it has benefits, but I can't speak for everyone.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 20, 2013, 11:03:31 AM
Good friend you got there, Rowan. Listen to her!

Oh I intend to. 
It's funny, a lot of what she said was the same advice I've given to other people here on the forum, and it's good advice!
Just, knowing it your heart is so much harder than knowing it in your head.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 20, 2013, 12:59:34 PM
"Breakfast is non-negotiable." There's profundity in that somehow.

Truly, thank you for sharing that. Your partner's issues are her own... it's very hard to cope with someone when they leap to conclusions about what you need. And knowing yourself is really not a trivial thing... many never manage to do it at all. Seems to me it has benefits, but I can't speak for everyone.

Yes, so true.  My wife has been really wonderful but she can't understand everything i'm going through and just as you say, she's her own person with her own issues.

Quote from: Rowan Rue on February 20, 2013, 10:55:11 AM
And I honestly haven't been able to tell for a very long time if my anger is reasonable
That is, it's been pushed back down so often that what I'm angry about gets all confused

You'll take advantage till you think you're being used
'cuz without an enemy our anger gets confused,
I got stuck on a side you know I never chose
but it's all about taking the easy way out for you, I suppose

--Elliott Smith, "Easy Way Out"