Quote from: r22b2 on February 17, 2013, 06:29:57 PM
SunKat & Elspeth: Yes the stuff with my partner and how she expects me to be is one large issue, and I think it does relate to my self/body image. She and I have been together for 17 years, since we were teenagers, so it's hard for her, even though she told me from the very beginning that she liked me because she thought I was 'pretty' and always told me that I'd make a cute girl - but of course, she never thought that that's what I actually wanted! After all,

Our society (and our own place in it) would be so much better if children were just allowed to assign their own gender once they came to feel and acknowledge it.  And maybe, your partner might also find it easier to acknowledge and own some of what this might imply for her.

At the least, this might be a place to start from -- not to become confrontational or to insist she remember this as you do, but perhaps to look for ways to discuss this in a way that she has some chance to understand what you were hearing, and how it (I'm guessing) may have been one of the key things that got you together in the first place? I hesitate to say too much or anything definite, particularly since it resonates with some of my issues with my ex, how we came together, based in the ways I shaped my perception. Just hoping something in this gives you some ideas of how to approach things  in terms of important relationships.

Kia Ora Elspeth & GYLF,

Apologies to OP ....

Just thought you might like to read this about the Fa'afafine of Samoa :

Note terms such as 'homosexual' and '->-bleeped-<-' are still used in the Islands, but most Fa'afafine in Aotearoa [NZ] don't use those terms any more  to describe themselves ...They are for the most part 'Transgender/Transsexual'

Samoa's social acceptance of fa'afafine has evolved from the tradition of raising some boys as girls. These boys, were not necessarily homosexual, or noticeably effeminate, and they may never have felt like dressing as women. They became ->-bleeped-<-s because they were born into families that had plenty of boys and not enough girls.

In families of all male children (or where the only daughter was too young to assist with the 'women's' work), parents would often choose one or more of their sons to help the mother. Because these boys would perform tasks that were strictly the work of women they were raised as if they were female. Although their true gender was widely known, they would usually be dressed as girls.
As they grew older, their duties would not change. They would continue performing 'women's' work, even if they eventually married (which would be to a woman).

Modern fa'afafine differ in two fundamental ways from their traditional counterparts. First, they are more likely to have chosen to live as women, and, secondly, they are more likely to be homosexual. These days, young Samoan boys who appear effeminate, or enjoy dressing as girls, may be recognised as fa'afafine by their parents. If they are, they will usually be neither encouraged nor discouraged to dress and behave as women. They will simply be allowed to follow the path they choose.
If it becomes apparent that a boy wants to become a fa'afafine, he will be taught the duties and crafts of women. Coupling those skills with the strengths of Samoan men can make a fa'afafine an extremely valuable member of society.

Metta Zenda

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 17, 2013, 08:49:05 PM
I think the problem is they'd all turn 13 and put themselves in basically the same gender roles as now, sorry I know everyone here actually believes gender is just made up but you give a baby T while the brain is forming in the womb and that person is masculine for the rest of their life, you give the baby E and the baby is feminine.  It always works that way in the normal world, I esp think that lately because I've been reading a lot of research about the physical sex spectrum and pretty much always you can predict how often people are going to reassign their gender role later in life if they get the wrong one at birth.  A lot of doctors in the 60s and 70s like John Money believed you could raise anyone in a role and they would just adopt the proper masculine or feminine traits, as if all men and women are actually just masculine and feminine because society told them to be, but it never worked, boys with accidents as a baby who were raised as girls as if it wouldn't matter basically always expressed strong masculinity and reassigned male later in life if they didn't develop a bunch of mental issues and commit suicide...

Not sure if you meant this as an expansion on what I said. Guessing you did, since what I was trying to point out was in fact based on two things...

1. The complete failure of Money's presumptive "fixes" that he claimed as successes, only to find that they turned out completely wrong in several fairly prominent cases (at least), and probably failed more subtly in others.

2. The fact that gender was not assigned at birth in at least some cultures (like the Hopi) that embraced specific roles for children who would probably now be identified in most cases as trans, if (in our culture) they wind up being recognized rather than shamed and suppressed during early childhood.

There may have been a time when I thought gender was more malleable, given my own attempts to live androgynously, but even for me, in retrospect, I wind up seeing that as a kind of failure, something I tried to convince myself I could tolerate.

What I'm getting at, though, is that the fixes we have available to us remain compromised, as long as society fails to recognize that there are girls born in male-looking bodies, and vice versa. Until society accepts and embraces that fact, and finds some more humane ways to cope with it, we will continue to face severe problems in adapting. At present, the best compromise for most seems to be transition, but it seems to me that most of us come to appreciate that it is still a compromise. But we don't get to decide how society at large is going to function or dysfunction, so in practical terms it does wind up being the best choice we have in many case, and possibly the vast majority (at least of cases where the dysphoria is profound, and a need to be seen on our own terms, as we see ourselves is a strong one).

Quote from: Zenda on February 17, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
In families of all male children (or where the only daughter was too young to assist with the 'women's' work), parents would often choose one or more of their sons to help the mother. Because these boys would perform tasks that were strictly the work of women they were raised as if they were female. Although their true gender was widely known, they would usually be dressed as girls.
As they grew older, their duties would not change. They would continue performing 'women's' work, even if they eventually married (which would be to a woman).

Thanks for sharing this. There are so many examples like this in many different cultures.

Without writing a novel, it seems to me that these kinds of roles, aside from the more obvious reasons they exist, may be driven in part by what I noticed and what became a really serious problem for me when I was trying to be myself, living a role of a full-time mom, but being seen as male (even though androgynous)... that there was no web of real support for someone like me. Granted, support for full-time cisgendered moms was not all that much better, but at least they did tend to have one another, and while I was somewhat welcomed into that circle, it really was not inclusion that I felt... there would always be some way I was excluded. Maybe this also exists or existed in the cultures that had or have such roles as well, but it does feel to me like having a name other than one that is seen as an insult is part of the struggle.

More later, perhaps, when I'm in a state to write and think more clearly?

Quote from: r22b2 on February 17, 2013, 06:29:57 PM
Thank you everybody for taking the time to respond - I wasn't expecting so many!

You're so welcome r22b2! Remember that that there a lot of people who care about you and who want you to have all the happiness you deserve. I'm impressed with the level of understanding you already exhibit about yourself and your issues- it takes many of us considerably longer to get it all together and start working on our stuff. The fact that you are aware of your challenges, and your cycles, and are working with a professional to get where you want to be, is VERY positive. *hugs*