On the short thing ... I notice that other guys (I'm assuming who were born male) who are around my height (5'3") almost always have facial hair – usually either a full beard, a goat tee or at least a few days worth of stubble. I think it's a thing with short guys that they do to either prevent being seen as teenage boys, or less than manly-men to people who are stuck on thinking that men should be tall. I saw these two guys in Walmart yesterday and they both were no taller than me and both of them have the whole "chin strap" thing going on.

I'd totally rather be read as a femme guy than a masculine female. Even though I'm not really femme but I do have a thing for fashion and I definitely push the boundaries there so I think that's my femme side and not so much mannerisms or the way I talk or anything.

Dominick - somewhere you gotta gain some confidence, dude. Have you tried working out yet? That's something you can do even in the confines of your own room with no one watching you by doing exercises that use your own body weight. The short thing, you can't get around, but hey, maybe when you can grow more facial hair you can try different things out with that? And Arch had a good point too, just be yourself, no matter what. If you're still trying to figure out why people are misgendering you, maybe get a friend or something video tape you interacting in your normal manner with someone else (don't put on an act) and maybe you could spot something (or upload it and have everyone else take look)?

Some of you have had some really good things to say-- and you know I am thinking that some of this is attitude. I am not putting up with misgendering some much. I mean if it is one "ma'am" at the end there isn't much I can do. I let them know, that they aren't correct very nicely. I am not at all nasty about it. (I don't really let them go on about apologizing saying something like "I get that a lot". )

Let me assure you that I don't pass in the slightest. I've had some VERY great experiences with that lately that I am asserting my male identity and people are picking up on it.

Males come in all different sizes and shapes and effeminent males are more common than people imagine.

--Jay

I don't know about the height thing. I get read as male about 85-90% of the time and I'm only 5'1.

Sometimes I think being a short guy has its advantages in regards to our other "tells". I've had people notice my small hands before and they just chalk it up to the fact I'm all-around shorter and smaller than average. If I were a taller guy with tiny hands that might actually be more of a giveaway. At least to the general cis public.

Regarding the tall thing....or hell even passing in general...I think a lot of it depends on the people you're around. I'm only 5'2 so if I'm surrounded by 6 foot men who look like they bench press cars I will stick out like a sore thumb and am much more likely to be read as female.

In my college class though, I'm not particularly short. There's one other guy who is the same height and build as me and the rest are mostly only a couple of inches taller at best. My baby face and patchy facial hair blends in well with the teenage crowd.

That's my theory anyway for why my pass rate at college is like 95% and out in the real world it's more like 40-50%

I read in there you had long hair..

Not to be an ahole but I know cisguys with full beards that still get misgendered with long hair,
how can you even expect too be gendered correctly if you have long hair and testosterone hasn't done much on you yet?
Some things are just obvious dude.

If you love long hair, that's awesome. Keep it that way.
But don't expect too pass, even after t gives you a bunch of changes.

Someone had too say it.

(Now I'm gonna wait for one of you too come at me saying ''BUT MEN CAN HAVE LONG HAIR!! OMG OMG!)

Sorry you're not passing consistently Dominick.  I too have a terrible time passing, though I know our situations are somewhat different as I've not started T yet (I'm in Britain and doing my Real Life Experience to qualify to get T on the NHS).  I can imagine it must be very frustrating to have been on T for two years and still not be passing all the time.  I can empathise though with some of the awkward social situations you find yourself in.

I'm totally incompetent at dealing with this stuff myself, lol, so I'm the last person qualified to give advice, though I suppose I can list some of the things that help me get past the frustration and upset when I don't pass.

1. I am what gender I feel I am, and no one else gets to decide that for me, least of all someone whom I'm going to encounter for three seconds at a shop counter or for a five minute taxi ride.  Of course, such a large part of many people's need to transition is a need to be perceived socially, day-to-day as the gender we are.  But it can be something of a comfort, while we're waiting for T, or waiting for T to take its full effect, to remind ourselves that the people who misgender folks by accident are more often than not people you encounter 'in passing' (pardon the pun), and their understanding and assessment of your gender is bound to be simplistic - try not to let it mean too much to you, because they don't know you.  It does get a bit much when it's happened several times in a day and it inevitably begins to upset you, but at the end of the day, at home in my flat listening to Muddy Waters and writing and watching 'Dr. G. Medical Examiner,' I'm a man - that's the thing that means the most.

Of course you should only begin correcting people when you feel ready, and in situations where you deem it safe, but I must admit I do nearly always correct people when they misgender me - the only times I don't are when I'm sick to the back teeth of doing it that day, or when I've let someone know my gender once and they continually and wilfully/thoughtlessly misgender me - then I just let them get on with it. 

The benefits and perils of correcting are many, lol.  If you've achieved a certain level of androgyny already through T, hopefully you shouldn't have many people even bat an eyelid if you politely let them know, 'Actually, it's "Sir."'  Of course, having to do this in itself is awkward, but it can be confidence-building.  I can only speak from my own experience as someone who doesn't yet pass at all, really, and have encountered a lot of disbelief and even the odd argument.  One person once called me 'She,' and when I said, 'Actually, it's "he,"' she said, 'Are you sure?' What?!  Why?  How?  Who even... Why would I even say I was a boy if I wasn't, unless I was Mulan?  Some days correcting people makes me feel better about myself, and other days it just adds to the pile of social awkwardnesses that my trans-ness has created.  Other days I manage to see at as an inevitable consequence of this condition I have.  I guess you've got to weigh this against the upset of letting people believe you're a gender you're not, and think about which is the better option.  Of course, this is only temporary.  When you start to get more changes from T, you'll have to worry about it less and less.

2. Cis people don't always 'pass'.  I was thinking about this the other day, and realised that my cis brother, who in my eyes has always been unmistakably male, was often misgendered right into his mid-teens.  I know some guys get changes on T really fast, but it has to be something of an achievement that you're passing some of the time after 2 years' exposure to testosterone, when my brother wasn't always passing 4 or 5 years into puberty.  Hopefully this indicates you're sort of on-track, or even ahead of, the timescale for male pubescent changes, and that your changes will continue to progess, perhaps quite slowly, but steadily, and one day you will undoubtedly pass consistently.

3. It will get better.  Lord knows I'm impatient to finally be seen as the man I am.  But the wait is going to be worth the pay-off.  I wish you all the very best    

Quote from: Jayr on February 18, 2013, 04:45:49 PM
I read in there you had long hair..

Not to be an ahole but I know cisguys with full beards that still get misgendered with long hair,
how can you even expect too be gendered correctly if you have long hair and testosterone hasn't done much on you yet?
Some things are just obvious dude.

If you love long hair, that's awesome. Keep it that way.
But don't expect too pass, even after t gives you a bunch of changes.

Someone had too say it.

(Now I'm gonna wait for one of you too come at me saying ''BUT MEN CAN HAVE LONG HAIR!! OMG OMG!)

Sorry but I'm going to side with Jayr on this one. I know many guys with long hair. I think it is cool, same with earrings in each ear and androgynous shirts and so on. But I think with us trans guys, if you want to be read male, you have just got to look at everything you do and say
"does that read male"? I don't think anyone reads me (pre-T but not for long) as male ever, but they are confused aplenty. And I get ma'amed less when I have just had a hair cut (got a fade).
If I let it go more than a week or so.

And yes, cis men have long hair, trans men have long hair, etc etc. But when people are reading you they cluster things together. A lot of cis guys would NOT care if they are read as female. But we care a whole bunch.

If you don't care so much, or you get read as male with long hair, then that's great. But that won't apply to all of us. I'm speaking to someone who has trouble passing.

--Jay

I am friends with the man who posted this and I accompany him places so I see how well people see him as a man:

I feel you here, I am 10 months on T and don't pass (or, rarely pass...which is better than before). I feel like I am behind all the other guys, so I can only imagine how you're feeling.

I've started correcting people, and it is scary and stressful. But it may make you feel better...it can help me sometimes, even though it still hurts to be misgendered.

Caleb, you should have mentioned that once you made the decision to start correcting people you did not have to do it that much anymore. I noticed that in his case it was an overnight shift from lots of being called ma'am and us together being called Ladies to very few of these sorts of things. People seem confused now about if he is a man or a woman. And the looks did not change overnight: it was because you finally valued yourself enough to tell people that you are a man and realize you have the right to correct them when they get it wrong.

A few other posters have said that if you are having trouble passing you should get short haircuts. For some people this does not work and long hair actually makes the male looks come out more. Because the head and skull are sometimes very round......in my advice I say just avoid the bangs in the long hair and make sure if it is longer in the front and top that it is shaggier in the back.

It also is not about wearing certain types of clothes though you don't want women's clothes. It is about wearing clothes that fit you well and suit your body. (Caleb just said it's okay to tell people this) he's been losing weight but the extra weight is making it harder to pass as well because it is hard to find clothes that not only fit but are also clothes he likes. So he is wearing clothes he does not like so much until the weight is off and he can try passing in clothes that suit his personal style better.

Quote from: Jayr on February 18, 2013, 04:45:49 PM
I read in there you had long hair..

Not to be an ahole but I know cisguys with full beards that still get misgendered with long hair,
how can you even expect too be gendered correctly if you have long hair and testosterone hasn't done much on you yet?
Some things are just obvious dude.

If you love long hair, that's awesome. Keep it that way.
But don't expect too pass, even after t gives you a bunch of changes.

Someone had too say it.

(Now I'm gonna wait for one of you too come at me saying ''BUT MEN CAN HAVE LONG HAIR!! OMG OMG!)

In all the pics he's posted it didn't look like he had long hair at all, so I don't think the hair card can be pulled unless he's really grown it out or something.

Facial hair is a huge component. Honestly, if I shaved my face I'd get misgendered way more often than I do without shaving.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 18, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
In all the pics he's posted it didn't look like he had long hair at all, so I don't think the hair card can be pulled unless he's really grown it out or something.

From what I remember he passed in all his photos. That tells me that there's got to be some majorly female mannerisms going on, or something. And I also half remember stuff about his dosage, if it's not been in the male range then should he really be thinking of it as "2 years on T"?

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 18, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
In all the pics he's posted it didn't look like he had long hair at all, so I don't think the hair card can be pulled unless he's really grown it out or something.

I've never seen pictures of him; I'm just going from what he wrote.
He said he had long hair, and even his mom pointed out that was probably why he didn't pass.

Clive: I agree totally with this. Correcting people (very politely and calmly) has huge effects on my self confidence. It is surprising how many people are just very cool with this and go "oh sorry". I'm amazed and happy at how well it works for me.

--Jay

Quote from: Jayr on February 18, 2013, 11:11:55 PM
I've never seen pictures of him; I'm just going from what he wrote.
He said he had long hair, and even his mom pointed out that was probably why he didn't pass.

I've never seen the pics either, always removed before I get the chance, I do have to say though, we have to try a little bit harder, so going out of your way to do something stereotypically female probably isn't the best way to go about being read as male, my bioboy friends with long hair get misgendered all the time, the difference between them and me is, they don't care about it when it happens.

Quote from: Geek on February 19, 2013, 01:13:43 AM
... my bioboy friends with long hair get misgendered all the time, the difference between them and me is, they don't care about it when it happens.

That I think is the key. If you have long hair, correct people, and don't let effect you otherwise. That is what "normal" guys with long hair do.

I've experimented with doing this since I do rock longish hair. Sometimes I'll just chuckle and say, "I'm not female" and then follow it up with, "it's the hair, right?" You don't have to correct people in a mean way or even a serious way, but the confidence has to be there. I've also told people that I have a "hormonal disorder", that usually quiets them up about it. But no matter what it is I decide to say, I try to be as confident about it as possible.

If you're at all questionable to the build of society as to what gender you are, then you have to accept that some people will see you one way and some people may not. The way you handle that makes all the difference.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 19, 2013, 01:39:18 PM

I've also told people that I have a "hormonal disorder", that usually quiets them up about it. But no matter what it is I decide to say, I try to be as confident about it as possible.

Sounds like I might be borrowing this one. We all have hormone disorders here.

--Jay

Thanks guys for all the tips. And I'm sorry that some of you guys on and off T still have a hard time passing also. I hope you guys start passing soon.

I just met with a guy  today that is trans and I asked him what is it that gets me ms-genered, and  he couldn't see how I got ms-gendered. He said I have a male presences and that I look masculine. I think he said it might be my height, but that's the only thing he said. I said maybe my long hair, but he seemed like the long hair shouldn't of got'n me ms-gendered b/c I look masculine enough to pass and it didn't matter that I had long hair. 

Quote from: AlexanderC on February 18, 2013, 09:30:54 PM
From what I remember he passed in all his photos. That tells me that there's got to be some majorly female mannerisms going on, or something. And I also half remember stuff about his dosage, if it's not been in the male range then should he really be thinking of it as "2 years on T"?

The trans guy I met with today did not say I have any feminine mannerism to me. I asked him if there was sometime about me that gets me ms-gendered and the height thing was the only thing he could think of that would have got''n me ms-gendered. He said I had a male presence.

Yeah except most people will tell you what you want to hear, regardless if it's true or not :/

Quote from: aleon515 on February 19, 2013, 02:14:55 PM
Sounds like I might be borrowing this one. We all have hormone disorders here.

--Jay

Hey, it's not exactly a lie :3

Getting misgendered sucks. Two years of doing something to masculinize yourself and still getting misgendered sucks even more. But you have to change your confidence, like others have been saying. Don't be afraid- you have nothing to prove to anybody. In all likelihood you'll never see them again, so correct them. Even if you will see them again, correct them. It'll give you the ego boost you need to help with passing, which will further boost your ego in a good cycle. You've got this.

I feel you on the height issue. Right now I'm lucky because I'm still a kid, but not for long. It's good that you look masculine with long hair- speaking of hair, how's your facial forest? The short guys I know are desperate to grow a beard because, well, girls don't have full beards- this isn't Skyrim 

Hope you start passing more soon. That has to be pretty rough.