Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 09:57:02 AM
Aaron Gabriel's post about the apparent weakness of female Disney characters made me think of a recent Disney movie in which I actually did enjoy the representation of the princess: Tangled.

Rapunzel is represented as an independent woman (relative to most Disney princesses) and is a strong character in her own right. Naturally, she falls in love with her 'prince' as per the usual Disney formula, but she's the hero of the piece unlike the usual damsel-in-distress nonsense we've come to expect. I was very proud to have my daughters watch that movie and identify with Rapunzel. For a Disney princess, she's quite a positive role model for young girls.

Seriously. If you haven't seen Tangled, I recommend you watch it. It's brilliant.

I LOVE that movie! They found a way to make a main character who was still VERY unmistakably feminine, and yet still had a great personality, and an actual will, and opinions, and although she was scared out of her wits a lot, she still managed to be a strong character who was willing to stand up for herself when she was pushed far enough. I agree. Rapunzel is an AWESOME character.

Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.

And what's wrong with that? If anything, men can't be vulnerable in modern society. 

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.

And I've never been able to stomach the presumption that women have to wait for a man to save them.  -shrug-  You can be feminine, but the idea that you have to have a man to be happy or to save you is something I heavily disagree with, but the reliance on any person like that regardless of a person's gender is disgusting to me.  I'm big on self-reliance and independence, however.  It shapes my viewpoint on the world and what I like in entertainment.

@ cheetaking243:  She was definitely feminine. x3  But strong.  I enjoyed her a lot.  I think the show was the first where I wasn't rooting for the bad guy.  I wanted Rapunzel and the guy to win and have their own lives. ^^

@ DianaP:  D: I know!  Why can't men be a bit vulnerable?  It's a shame when one gender is expected to be vulnerable while the other always has to be the "savior".  I don't care for it, but I'm not big on the idea that men have to be uber masculine and that women have to be uber feminine. 

Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 10:53:31 AM

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Honestly, I've never been able to stomach the 'damsel who saves herself' in movies. My dad's the same way. I think there is something seriously lost in our culture that women can't just be feminine and vulnerable anymore in our supposed 'entertainment'.

And what's wrong with that? If anything, men can't be vulnerable in modern society. 

Because all American entertainment is like this now. You can't watch a movie without all this 'see, she's a woman but see how strong she is! god forbid we actually let the man play the hero'. And it's too obvious.  You know, we don't need the heroine to do all this macho posturing just to prove a point. It's supposed to be fiction. I'd love to just see a traditional femme heroine for once. Bella from twilight is like the only one from recent years I can stand.

I don't get it. What's a traditional femme heroine? If anything, "traditional" means that there were no femme heroines! 

I liked Rise of the Guardians. I know it's not Disney, but Dreamworks is close enough. The movie was so good! 

Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:07:04 AM
I don't get it. What's a traditional femme heroine? If anything, "traditional" means that there were no femme heroines! 

Well, probably a princess who's actually not a tomboy engaging in swordplay (or that general theme). Nothing wrong with that kind of thing. It was cool the first few times, but it's really getting old now. AND it perpetuates the 'masculine is cool, feminine is not good enough' thing. When all we have are heroines who basically are men disguised as hot chicks - the message isn't feminism. (And if we must have a heroine like that, how come she can never be like women most likely to be like that - butch. Why does she always have to be 'hot'.)

And this is another reason for trans misogyny. Traditional femininity is perceived as unacceptable, not even good enough for a movie.

Hmm.. Getting back to Disney movies, and thier heroines.  I have always had a soft spot for Alice, running away down a rabbit hole to find a reality of non-reality then longing for her home.  Maybe it was the whole lost girl in a strange world concept that I identified with.

I agree that being feminine isn't all too bad, but you must remember who you're talking about. I don't think an audience would like to watch a traditional femme hero if that means she can't use a sword. It's all about the money. 

Anywho, how is one supposed to choose their favorite female character from Disney?

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
Because all American entertainment is like this now.

Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them. Even Star Trek, which broke so many barriers by having a a female senior officer on the Bridge (and an African-American woman at that!). Most of the women on the show were pretty little things who would fall helplessly for Kirk's charms.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
I'd love to just see a traditional femme heroine for once.

There are plenty available, if that's your thing. But I think it's great to see characters like Rapunzel, or Debra Morgan, or Abby Sciuto, teaching the girls of today that they can be so much more than a pretty little thing who flutters her eyelashes and aspires to be swept off her feet by a macho man. (OK, maybe Debra Morgan isn't such a great role model for a young girl).

Either way, I prefer the way women are represented now. I've been raising my daughters to be independent women and I'd hate to have to do that whilst fighting against the misogyny that was standard fayre when I was growing up.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AM
Most of the women on the show were pretty little things who would fall helplessly for Kirk's charms.

I don't know...it's hard to resist that foxy charmer. 

Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:29:23 AM
I don't know...it's hard to resist that foxy charmer. 

I agree... just ask Spock.

Oh yeah. I went there. 

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
I agree... just ask Spock.

Oh yeah. I went there. 

Well, it's only logical. 

Anywho, I like Prince Charming from Cinderella. I don't care what anyone says, I'm guilty of wanting a prince to sweep me off my feet, so sue me if you want to. 

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:24:00 AM

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:00:33 AM
Because all American entertainment is like this now.

Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them.

Hmm I knew there had to be a reason I prefer films from about 1930 to 1968. 

Oh I don't really think strong (today's euphemism for 'masculine') heroines are a bad thing, just that there's too much of it nowadays. And I actually enjoy strong female characters who are strong in a feminine instead of masculine way. Another big problem with this is that it certainly doesn't go both ways. There's no soft, effeminate male equivalent in the mainstream (don't know about B movies and the like). So to me the message is clear - women behaving in a traditionally masculine manner is hot and to be celebrated, while neither women nor men behaving in traditionally feminine ways can be cool. I just feel like we as a society have rejected traditional femininity (which I personally find really beautiful and desirable).

But I'm getting off topic here so... (Can you tell this issue has bugged me for awhile?  )

Quote from: DianaP on February 19, 2013, 11:38:52 AM

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 19, 2013, 11:36:57 AM
I agree... just ask Spock.

Oh yeah. I went there. 

Well, it's only logical. 

Anywho, I like Prince Charming from Cinderella. I don't care what anyone says, I'm guilty of wanting a prince to sweep me off my feet, so sue me if you want to. 

That's the spirit hon!

Growing up I absolutely loved Arielle from Little Mermaid...especially the almost 'kiss scene' while they were boating in that lagoon with all the animals singing'kiss the girl'.  I think I was 8 or 9 when I first saw it and I can remember thinking 'how romantic'.  Belle from beauty and the beast would be a second....but I can remember thinking how I wouldn't have forgivven him quite so willingly after he locked her father up.

Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 09:40:14 AMAnother favorite is Beast [not when he's human].

Agreed. Beastly Beast is better than human beast.

Tangled is one of my son's favourite movies (and mine too). I like how there is a heroine who is feminine and capable at the same time and none of that "she has to be a tomboy to be badass" I got sick of.
I like The Hunchback of Notre Dame too and The Great Mouse Detective, Aladdin, and many others. Peter Pan, I have discovered, makes me feel uncomfortable though.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 19, 2013, 11:44:05 AM
Meanwhile, all you need to do is to watch pretty much any American TV show or movie up to & including the 1970s to see how women used to be represented as helpless little waifs who needed a Big Strong Man to save them.

Hmm I knew there had to be a reason I prefer films from about 1930 to 1968. 

Oh I don't really think strong (today's euphemism for 'masculine') heroines are a bad thing, just that there's too much of it nowadays. And I actually enjoy strong female characters who are strong in a feminine instead of masculine way. Another big problem with this is that it certainly doesn't go both ways. There's no soft, effeminate male equivalent in the mainstream (don't know about B movies and the like). So to me the message is clear - women behaving in a traditionally masculine manner is hot and to be celebrated, while neither women nor men behaving in traditionally feminine ways can be cool. I just feel like we as a society have rejected traditional femininity (which I personally find really beautiful and desirable).

But I'm getting off topic here so... (Can you tell this issue has bugged me for awhile?  )

I think it's because there's a prevalence of women who don't want the message to be that in order to be feminine you have to have a guy or that you have to be saved by a guy.  [It's why I hate Twilight -- I hate the idea that in order to be happy you have to have a guy (if you're a girl).  I dislike the idea that there's a "need" to have someone -- you should want to be with them and not need to be with them.]  Anyway...it's quite possible to be feminine while being strong.  [Leelu was a good character to show this and the same with the lead in The Princess Bride.  Both of them were feminine, but they were strong and didn't need a man to be happy -- something that has been pushed on throughout the movies of the 1900s.]

I'm all fine by characters being feminine and being happy wearing traditionally feminine clothes and being housewives, etc.  Just don't show me someone who needs a lover to be happy.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 19, 2013, 08:02:41 AM
Easy, I identified with



And the one big material possession I want in my life is...

Can see that about you. 

Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 11:52:03 AM

Quote from: Aaron Gabriel on February 19, 2013, 09:40:14 AMAnother favorite is Beast [not when he's human].

Agreed. Beastly Beast is better than human beast.

Tangled is one of my son's favourite movies (and mine too). I like how there is a heroine who is feminine and capable at the same time and none of that "she has to be a tomboy to be badass" I got sick of.
I like The Hunchback of Notre Dame too and The Great Mouse Detective, Aladdin, and many others. Peter Pan, I have discovered, makes me feel uncomfortable though.

Finally, someone who agrees with me! Haven't seen Tangled so I dunno.
Speaking of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, the only Disney character I have ever related to is Frollo. Unfortunately, I know exactly how he feels.

Ah I forgot about The Great Mouse Detective, I think that movie is why I love mice so much.

I also preferred the beast as a beast. And I did enjoy the female character in The Princess Frog.

I've always liked the female villains; they're (despite being evil) have always been strong go-getters unlike the damsalin distress.

On the other note brought up by Not so fat admin, I can understand where he's coming from. I think some TV shows, commercials, etc have turned the tables and are showing men as being dumb ogres who can't do anything without their smart, sexy wife helping them (like Leave It To Jim did).

Edit to add: most of the female villains were pretty hot too