Warning: self-deprecating ranting and pathetic whining ahead. And weakness. Weakness is intolerable. I am so mad at myself right now.
I desperately need guy friends right now. I don't mean to sound sexist. Maybe I am being sexist since, after all, there is nothing wrong with female friends. I just really, really feel like I need guy friends. I don't know why. I'm pretty sure it's impossible for other guys to like me though. It's probably because I am stupid, pathetic, whiny, weird, and too girly for anyone to believe I'm a real guy.
I hate that this is bothering me. I hate that I feel this way. I hate that I am so stupid, pathetic, and weak. I hate that I am whining. It will just make people hate me more because it's pathetic. I don't blame them. This is PATHETIC.

Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
I just really, really feel like I need guy friends. I don't know why.

I so get this. That's the main way my transgender shows itself. I'm interested in friendship mainly from my true gender and not from those who share my physical sex.

You'll get the hang of this. Male/male friendships aren't very complicated.

I'm not the social type so didn't really get into that too much.

But what I know of getting to know guys, you need a reason to start talking.

Men are incredibly panicy about being seen as odd or gay. I found they didn't dislike gay guys as such, provided they weren't in any way, interested in them.

So you need a reason to start talking.

One of the easiest I know of and would certainly suit you, since you're pretty smart, is to go to a college course. Ideally, you need one with a decent break in the middle, so you have some time to meet others.

Another thing I know about guys is the same with most people, never seem too eager. Friendly, interested, without coming on too strong. Not pushy, opinionated.

But, and this is a biggie. If you are going to present as a male then you need to keep that up. Take my word for it, from personal experience, when you meet some guy and you just wanna wrap your arms around him ... Don't. Walk away. That is social suicide.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 19, 2013, 10:59:03 AMI so get this.

Thanks.

Quote from: spacial on February 19, 2013, 11:00:19 AMOne of the easiest I know of and would certainly suit you, since you're pretty smart, is to go to a college course. Ideally, you need one with a decent break in the middle, so you have some time to meet others.

I am taking five courses and two labs in university with an hour break at lunchtime (two hours on tuesdays).

Quote from: spacial on February 19, 2013, 11:00:19 AMBut, and this is a biggie. If you are going to present as a male then you need to keep that up. Take my word for it, from personal experience, when you meet some guy and you just wanna wrap your arms around him ... Don't. Walk away. That is social suicide.

Hugging is awkward and uncomfortable unless one has a certain relationship (ex: my son can hug me).
I am presenting as male and I am male. That does not mean I learned how to behave as a socially acceptable male. I only learned how to change my behaviour to fit in as a pretend female and I've been doing it for years. Even when I do stop acting like that (which is harder than it sounds because it's a defence mechanism), I have no idea how to act instead and am aware that what comes naturally is socially unacceptable, so I don't do it. For some reason, that is so f-ing difficult for people to understand and it is f-ing frustrating for me. (I am not meaning to swear at anyone in particular. I'm just frustrated.)

This is what my personality is more like. Not exactly socially acceptable. At least, I assume so since people keep telling me so. It's not exactly conducive to making friends.

Edge,

It's very important for everyone to have friends of the same sex so I completely understand your need for male friends.  I can't speak from personal experience of a male/male friendship....but you are right inthe fact my male friends tend to 'sympathize' less with complaining or whining.  They tend to just try to extricate themselves from any situation involving that.  I'm going to suggest you try to get involved in a sport, if you're athletic then try an intramural sport like soccer at your university....it's not normally that competetive and more just for fun.  If you don't feel up to that, check around your county for community softball or soccer leaugues; they pretty much have them for all age groups everywhere in the US and you definitely don't have to be good to be on those.  These are perfect ways to get to know other guys without a 'pressures' situation. Plus after the community softball league practices normally they all go grab a beer/burger type of thing at a sports bar....guy bonding at it's best!  I'm wishing you luck and hope you find some guy friends. Oh sidenote....I second what spacial said...guys are definitely not touchy feely, so no arm touches, hugs even slaps on the back (until you know them well), men think it's WEIRD and will try to avoid you, at least the straight ones.

Quote from: spring0721 on February 19, 2013, 11:39:07 AMIt's very important for everyone to have friends of the same sex so I completely understand your need for male friends.

Thanks

Quote from: spring0721 on February 19, 2013, 11:39:07 AMI can't speak from personal experience of a male/male friendship....but you are right inthe fact my male friends tend to 'sympathize' less with complaining or whining.  They tend to just try to extricate themselves from any situation involving that.

As hypocritical as it sounds, I want to do the same thing. (In my defence, I hate my own whining and want to stop being a weakling already.) I learned that if I do though, people get mad at me.

Quote from: spring0721 on February 19, 2013, 11:39:07 AMOh sidenote....I second what spacial said...guys are definitely not touchy feely, so no arm touches, hugs even slaps on the back (until you know them well), men think it's WEIRD and will try to avoid you, at least the straight ones.

I totally agree and feel the same way. Unless they're my son or someone who has a relationship with me that doesn't make it creepy, it's weird.

Edge,

I think it's maybe the testoterone that just makes men more uncomfortable with emotion or just that they have less patience in general for whining (my vote is the latter as my ex has less tolerance for our sons whining than I do)?....I don't know, I mean all my life I've had guy friends, but it is very interesting to watch how different their relationships (friendship wise) are so completely different with me or other girls than they are with other men.  it's almost like a light switch is flipped when a guy is hanging out with a girl vs guy.

Quote from: spring0721 on February 19, 2013, 11:53:37 AM
I think it's maybe the testoterone that just makes men more uncomfortable with emotion? ....I don't know, I mean all my life I've had guy friends, but it is very interesting to watch how different their relationships (friendship wise) are so completely different with me or other girls than they are with other men.  it's almost like a light switch is flipped when a guy is hanging out with a girl vs guy.

I wouldn't know. Most of my friendships with guys were when they thought I was female and treated me like one. I have one guy friend now and he thinks it's ok to call me cute which I hate for obvious reasons.
I doubt it's testosterone. Emotion makes me uncomfortable too. I learned to face them head-on and deal with them though. From what I understand, some guys are taught to run from them instead. Which doesn't make sense to me. How can one get rid of them if one lets them fester?

Guys make friends with other guys by doing things together. And personalities tend to clump around activities that fit them. Like when you were complaining about your nonstandard guy personality, you totally reminded me of my guy friends who are gaming geeks and are constantly looking for additions to their bands of convivial misfits. You just need to find what you are passionate about - example: anime; rocketry; 20 sided dice games; german board games; tai chi chuan. And join the group of guys that do your stuff. Friendships automatically flow, especially if you can make yourself cool to the group by bringing something, nonchalantly, to the table.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 19, 2013, 10:59:03 AM

Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
I just really, really feel like I need guy friends. I don't know why.

I so get this. That's the main way my transgender shows itself. I'm interested in friendship mainly from my true gender and not from those who share my physical sex.

You'll get the hang of this. Male/male friendships aren't very complicated.

Oddly, I feel the same in reverse. Like I'm desperate for female companionship over male now. Probably because I never had it. I have a deep need for love and acceptance by females. In a platonic way even more than a romantic way.

I've just written a short missive on how to be a guy. From the point of view of a girl who played being a guy unsuccessfully.

It was garbage.

You know what you all need to do?

1. Stop being angry, all guys are angry. Suck it in. That all. Guys think of themselves as cool, laid back, unimpressed.

2. Get a hobby. Almost every guy in existance has a hobby of some kind. Be it sports, engines, fishing and so on. Usually several. But take up Karate. Because that will teach you self control. Not to mention  getting you very fit. You need to make a real effort at first, but eventually pull it back to about once a week.

A hobby will keep you busy and give you an identity. You might talk about it occasionally, but mostly, you will just be known for it.

As for actually meeting people, I can't even begin to tell you how much I sympathise with you both. In my case, I eventually realised that for some it comes narturally, for others it simply doesn't. I just learnt to deal with it.

But if you need a more intimate relationship you could do worse than a dating agency. There really is no reason why not frankly.














I've found these. I so hope they are available in your country.

The guy driving is an actor who plays character parts in TV comedy in the UK. He is currently doing a series where he drives around a series of reasonable famous people. talking. A sort of new take on the Chat Show.

Now it's interesting because this guy has a rather beta sort of male character. But he's successful with it. A number of the male guests he has are very alpha. Watch these tho and a few others. Watch the interactions between them. How they relate to each other. How they talk.  If you wish, you could compare with a female guest.

Jamie Bestwick | Carpool

Jim Jeffries | Carpool

http://www.youtube.com/user/carpoolUK?feature=watch

Thanks for the responses everyone. I feel a lot better now.
I'll take a look at that carpool thing later. Thanks!

Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 09:14:34 AM
Warning: self-deprecating ranting and pathetic whining ahead. And weakness. Weakness is intolerable. I am so mad at myself right now.
I desperately need guy friends right now. I don't mean to sound sexist. Maybe I am being sexist since, after all, there is nothing wrong with female friends. I just really, really feel like I need guy friends. I don't know why. I'm pretty sure it's impossible for other guys to like me though. It's probably because I am stupid, pathetic, whiny, weird, and too girly for anyone to believe I'm a real guy.
I hate that this is bothering me. I hate that I feel this way. I hate that I am so stupid, pathetic, and weak. I hate that I am whining. It will just make people hate me more because it's pathetic. I don't blame them. This is PATHETIC.

Edge, let me say this...

You are in no way pathetic.  You are not a loser.  You are raising a kid.  You are going to college.  Hey!  There's nothing pathetic about that.

Your rant, on the other hand, is about as wimpy as they come.  It needs more verve!  Righteous anger!  A few four-letter words.    (Of course, I'd have to edit it those, but at least we'd know you were serious about ranting.)

And how did you do in Geology last semester?

Four letter words were and are tempting, but, as you said, they'd have to be edited out.
Geology went fine. I'm taking another geology course right now that is a lot of fun. We're talking about fossils and extinctions! So cool! Anyway...

Quote from: Edge on February 20, 2013, 08:26:17 PM
Four letter words were and are tempting, but, as you said, they'd have to be edited out.
Geology went fine. I'm taking another geology course right now that is a lot of fun. We're talking about fossils and extinctions! So cool! Anyway...

Way cool!  Historical geology?  I loved my invertebrate paleontology and micropaleontology courses.  Still have my text books after all these years.

Quote from: Edge on February 19, 2013, 06:05:56 PM
Thanks for the responses everyone. I feel a lot better now.
I'll take a look at that carpool thing later. Thanks!

It isn't necessary unless you really want to.

Often, when we can have something such as standard interactions demonstrated, it can be easier to understand how to integrate these into our own lives.

I chose that program because the personality types are such that what we see are socially natural interactions between a beta male and an alpha male. I also suggested to look at the interactions with a female guest for comparison.

But at the end to the day, the horse can be take to the water........

I definitely feel the same way when it comes to girls, but whenever I talk to a girl, I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm hitting on her and I'm not meaning to at all. I suppose going full time should help with that though!

Quote from: spacial on February 22, 2013, 05:49:05 AM
Often, when we can have something such as standard interactions demonstrated, it can be easier to understand how to integrate these into our own lives.

Yeah I agree. That's how we learn how to act socially in the first place don't we? I will watch them. Just probably this weekend when I don't have a small child interrupting, homework that needs to be done, etc.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on February 21, 2013, 05:54:39 PM
Way cool!  Historical geology?  I loved my invertebrate paleontology and micropaleontology courses.  Still have my text books after all these years.

General Geology II. I would love to do historical geology though.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 22, 2013, 06:20:31 AM
I definitely feel the same way when it comes to girls, but whenever I talk to a girl, I'm pretty sure she thinks I'm hitting on her and I'm not meaning to at all. I suppose going full time should help with that though!

Possibly. I'm full time now and still have difficulty, but shyness is also a factor.
Guess what. A guy in my psych class talked to me today. And yes, I know showing happiness about that makes me sound like a girl with a crush. Not a girl, no crush. Just glad.

That's awesome Edge! You know, guys aren't as hard to befriend as girls. You just got to hang out with guys into the same things you are. You're in the same class as this guy which automatically gives you common ground to talk about. Just relax and be yourself. Forget about all those 'rules' in your head about guy communication. Really, that's the problem. I became awkward around guys for the first time in my life once I started passing. Because I was worried about being trans. Just forget that part.

Sorry for complaining again.
I wrote a whole long thing that just sounded whiny. Let me summarize instead:
I have to stuff a lot of things on a regular basis. I hide it because I have to and mostly because no one wants to see it.
Last night, my anger was threatening to let itself out again, but I was able to hold a regular conversation with a friend. Until xe wanted me to put her problem first. That sounds cold. Let me explain further.
Xe plans to move to another province to be with xe boyfriend were postponed for a month or so. That was xe problem. I know a few people (myself included) who moved to another province to be with a significant other, got burned for it (at least three of us ended up a shelter for abused people), and are now stuck here in a place we don't want to be for several years. Three of us might have to leave our kids behind to leave which is more heart wrenching than I can describe. This is one of the things I live with on a regular basis.
Granted, I could have reacted better. But then xe responded with a remark that xe's "getting tired" of my issues. Sorry if this is mean, but that seems more than a little skewed to me. I do admit that weakness is disgusting and should be eradicated, but... well, hopefully, the disproportion here is obvious.
(Also I should add, that xe barely ever hears about my issues. I hear about xe boyfriend and move almost every day.)